Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Smokey on July 21, 2009, 04:54:17 PM
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I have two questions about this card:
1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.
Relevant Abilitys:
Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)
Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)
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1. No. The battle ends and Battle Resolution begins.
2. Yes, as long as they went to the discard pile.
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1. No. The battle ends and Battle Resolution begins.
2. Yes, as long as they went to the discard pile.
What would keep them from going to the discard pile?
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Hey,
If the hero that attacked was Servant Girl she would be captured rather than discarded. Things like that.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
If the hero that attacked was Servant Girl she would be captured rather than discarded. Things like that.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
But, aside from that and protection fortresses etc. that combo would still work?
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What is Murmuring?
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What is Murmuring?
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FMurmuring%2520%28H%29.gif&hash=19841bff7f0eaa180abd8dcdcf8c4fb175760d6d)
It's that...
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Arrogance + Wrath + Murmuring is WICKED. :o
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I guess I didn't catch the memo on this: If you play a battle-winner (not a battle-ender) with Arrogance, does your opponent get to negate before you finish using Arrogance's ability? If not, then if you play something after the battle-winner, does your opponent get to negate at all?
(If this hasn't been decided yet, I'll move it to another post.)
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I have two questions about this card:
1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.
Relevant Abilitys:
Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)
Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)
From the REG
Initiative
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.
You cannot play murmuring after wrath because you have to play the cards one at a time. Your opponent can play a negate in between because he gains innitiative since he is losing the battle because of wos. I am about 95% sure on this. Furthermore I don't believe you can play murmuring after wrath even if the hero does not play a negate, because the innitiative passes and the battle has now ended.
EDIT
I misread the Sa on Arrogance. The question is does the SA on arrogance trump the game rule that says you can play a negate when you are losing. I say yes it does trump the game rule so you cannot play a negate.
Edit,
I reread the sa on arrogance and I stand by my first point, because it does not say that after you are done playing the enhancements (for Arrogance) is the only time innitiative passes it passes by a game rule when you are losing the battle.This should be a good discussion nonetheless. :D
Even if it is ruled that you cannot play a negate on wos it is only because of the second clarifying ability on arrogance. The second ability should be taken out for the same reason the second ability on Nero was taken out.
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I remember there was a huge discussion about this.... started be me.... but I can't remember the conclusion oddly enough.
I argued that you could continue to lay down enhancements even after a battle winner, and when you were done, they all just activated at once (in order).
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Arrogance was previously ruled to play like a massive banding card like Unified Kingdom. It targets specific cards (your hand), and then once they're all played their abilities activate in the order you put them into the battle.
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So it's as if they were all played simultaneously?
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Is that right? I thought unified kingdom had each guy's ability activate as he entered.
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It does, but it targets only what's available and brings them all in 'at one time'. Their abilities happen sequentially, though, the sequence determined by the ability-player.
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I don't understand this line of thinking.
If I play arrogance and then play wrath of satan, why wouldn't wrath of satan activate right then? Nothing is delaying it.
The way I see it, one of two things happens then:
1. Initiative passes because the hero is losing the battle, regardless of the ability on arrogance, and the hero may play an interrupt.
OR
2. Initiative does not pass, due to the ability of arrogance, and the discarded hero has no chance to interrupt. In this case, the EC could continue playing enhancements until finished, which would activate immediately as they are played.
ETA: I'm much more inclined to #2, logically, even if that is not the intent of the card. The argument for #1 seems to be "but you gain initiative due to a game rule." By that logic, the card wouldn't do anything because you gain initiative due to a game rule when losing by numbers as well. The card seems to specify that iniative passes ONLY when you are done playing enhancements.
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+1 with Josiah. That seems to be the way it has been played everyother time I have played it.
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14506.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14506.0)
There is the thread if you fancy a bit of reading.
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When it comes down to it, no ruling was achieved. I read that thread, and it was contentious all the way through with no clear resolution. Can we finally get a ruling on this card?
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I read through the whole thread as well. What basically came out of that is that Arrogance should essentially be played as "you may play x enhancements" x = any number you choose. You must select which enhancements and how many to play when arrogance's ability takes effect. Therefore, this cannot include cards in your draw pile. If you play a card like Dream after arrogance, you draw three cards and may play ONE of the cards you draw as it allows you to play an additional enhancement. Basically, treat arrogance as similar to cards that band in multiple heroes. You first select all that will band in and then band them in one by one, allowing each one's ability to take effect.
So, in the example:
First play arrogance.
Then declare you will be playing wrath of satan and murmurming. Wrath of satan takes effect, discarding all heros. Then, murmuring removes all cards in the discard pile from the game.
What is not clear from that entire thread is if the hero being discarded ever gets a chance to interrupt wrath of satan. This is only addressed very early on in the thread and goes by the wayside without resolution.
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But there was some significant rebuttal of that argument, So I don't recognize it as official. Its one thing when the PTB are in agreement, its different when they can't agree.
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Once all cards arrogance is going to play have been played, they activate. I believe (as in am not certain) that once all the abilities completed, if the hero(es) in battle are losing by removal, they would get a chance to negate it, assuming you didn't inish Arrogance with a "end the battle" card. IF you did negate it, though, it would need to be with a card that negates AN enh., as WoS would not be the LAST enh played.
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ETA: I'm much more inclined to #2, logically, even if that is not the intent of the card. The argument for #1 seems to be "but you gain initiative due to a game rule." By that logic, the card wouldn't do anything because you gain initiative due to a game rule when losing by numbers as well. The card seems to specify that iniative passes ONLY when you are done playing enhancements.
Gaining innitiative BTN is different than gaining innitiative by a special ability.
Here is how I see it, arrogance allows you to play as many enhancements as you want and when you decide you are done the innitiative passes to the other player. There is no such thing as play enhancements simutaneously, so I play the enhnacements one at a time. The minute I play wrath the hero in battle is discarded. Wrath triggers a game rule that says, when I am losing the battle by a special ability I get a chance to negate that such enhancement. Arrogance does not give me innitiative to play the card but wrath does. Since wrath was played after arrogance wrath regives me innitiative by triggering a game rule.
Another way to look at it would be this/ If I played arrogance and played as many enhancements as I want when I am done playing my enhancements you would have innitiative right? Not always, what if my enhancements had no numbers and I was losing the battle BTN? Does innitiative pass? No because that contradicts the game rule of "you cant pass innitiative when you are losing. Why would arrogance get around the game rule of losing by a special ability when it doesn't get around this game rule. It just seems wrong to me.
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ETA: I'm much more inclined to #2, logically, even if that is not the intent of the card. The argument for #1 seems to be "but you gain initiative due to a game rule." By that logic, the card wouldn't do anything because you gain initiative due to a game rule when losing by numbers as well. The card seems to specify that iniative passes ONLY when you are done playing enhancements.
Gaining innitiative BTN is different than gaining innitiative by a special ability.
Here is how I see it, arrogance allows you to play as many enhancements as you want and when you decide you are done the innitiative passes to the other player. There is no such thing as play enhancements simutaneously, so I play the enhnacements one at a time. The minute I play wrath the hero in battle is discarded. Wrath triggers a game rule that says, when I am losing the battle by a special ability I get a chance to negate that such enhancement. Arrogance does not give me innitiative to play the card but wrath does. Since wrath was played after arrogance wrath regives me innitiative by triggering a game rule.
Another way to look at it would be this/ If I played arrogance and played as many enhancements as I want when I am done playing my enhancements you would have innitiative right? Not always, what if my enhancements had no numbers and I was losing the battle BTN? Does innitiative pass? No because that contradicts the game rule of "you cant pass innitiative when you are losing. Why would arrogance get around the game rule of losing by a special ability when it doesn't get around this game rule. It just seems wrong to me.
If what your saying is true than theres no point in even bothering to play this card.
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Yes there is. If you wanted to play a ton of territory-killing enhancements without passing initiative, then Arrogance allows you to do so. Otherwise, as soon as your numbers are higher than theirs, they could just end the battle or something, preventing you from playing your other territory-killing enhancements. It might not be very useful, but no one ever said it had to be.
I honestly don't know which interpretation is correct and don't care too much either way. I just wanted to point out that it has potential use whichever interpretation is correct.
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Bottom line question here, for someone in the know:
Arrogance followed by wrath of satan followed by something else. Is there a chance for the hero to interrupt WoS or are they already discarded?
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Arrogance followed by wrath of satan followed by something else. Is there a chance for the hero to interrupt WoS or are they already discarded?
+1 That's what we need answered, along with whether or not you are limited to your original hand when playing arrogance. Also whether the effects happen right away or are they delayed?
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I think it's really funny that we keep having these discussions about Arrogance when I have yet to see anyone play it. :P
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If it does in fact allow an uninterruptible discard, it would definitely be worth playing.
Based on the other thread linked above, it has been pretty well established that cards played need to be declared first. That's not really intuitive, but I can see how they got there.
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I think it's really funny that we keep having these discussions about Arrogance when I have yet to see anyone play it. :P
Have you never played against a Sin in the Camp deck?
Kirk
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Have you never played against a Sin in the Camp deck?
Kirk
Yes. It didn't use Arrogance.
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Oh alright. Thats strange not to have a copy. Did they manage to pull it off still?
Kirk
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I think it's really funny that we keep having these discussions about Arrogance when I have yet to see anyone play it. :P
I think more people would play it if they knew exactly what it did :P
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I am waiting to use it to see how it is ruled, any of the PTB want to come settle this misbegotten issue once and for all(if thats even possible on these forums ;) )?
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I have two questions about this card:
1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.
Relevant Abilitys:
Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)
Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)
Here's the way I would see it:
First, play Arrogance, which basically gives you unlimited initiative to play Enhancements.
Play Wrath of Satan, which kills all heroes in play. All heroes in players' territories would go to their discard piles, but the hero in battle remains until end of battle (I'm pretty sure this is the rule about battles -- that even if their toughness reaches zero, they are not discarded until end of battle -- however, all other heroes would die immediately).
Then play Murmuring, which would basically remove all their heroes except for the one in battle from the game.
Then play Worshiping Demons to end the battle immediately (provided the conditions of having an artifact depicting an idol or evil altar in play is met). Ordinarily, I would say that if Wrath of Satan were played, since the hero doesn't die until the end of battle normally, that they are now losing by numbers and have a chance to interrupt the battle or negate Wrath of Satan, if they can (even though there were a couple of cards played later). But in this case, the battle ends immediately so your opponent would not have a chance to respond.
That's how I see the battle playing out. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of my points.
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I think it's really funny that we keep having these discussions about Arrogance when I have yet to see anyone play it. :P
I splashed in archers of kedar arrogance and great image in my Assyrian deck I played at Nationals 2006.
Based on the other thread linked above, it has been pretty well established that cards played need to be declared first.
I would need a really strong argument to say that I cant play dream, draw three then play another evil enhancements. Declaring the number of evil enhancements when you play it not only seems counterintuitive it goes against the very wording on the card.
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I have two questions about this card:
1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.
Relevant Abilitys:
Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)
Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)
Here's the way I would see it:
First, play Arrogance, which basically gives you unlimited initiative to play Enhancements.
Play Wrath of Satan, which kills all heroes in play. All heroes in players' territories would go to their discard piles, but the hero in battle remains until end of battle (I'm pretty sure this is the rule about battles -- that even if their toughness reaches zero, they are not discarded until end of battle -- however, all other heroes would die immediately).
I have never heard such a rule for discard. Perhaps you are lumping in the decrease numbers with a discard? This rule would allow me to play Authority of Christ after some one else plays Wrath of Satan and that is not how it works.
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I have two questions about this card:
1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.
Relevant Abilitys:
Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)
Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)
Here's the way I would see it:
First, play Arrogance, which basically gives you unlimited initiative to play Enhancements.
Play Wrath of Satan, which kills all heroes in play. All heroes in players' territories would go to their discard piles, but the hero in battle remains until end of battle (I'm pretty sure this is the rule about battles -- that even if their toughness reaches zero, they are not discarded until end of battle -- however, all other heroes would die immediately).
I have never heard such a rule for discard. Perhaps you are lumping in the decrease numbers with a discard? This rule would allow me to play Authority of Christ after some one else plays Wrath of Satan and that is not how it works.
You know, that could be what I'm doing. So I guess the question would be whether the hero would get a chance to respond to Wrath of Satan or if the defending player would be able to play until he/she played the card that ends battle immediately.
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Ok For what its worth here is my take on the whole mess:
First the card:
Arrogance
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
I play arrogance, play Wrath of Satan, Murmuring, declare I am done and then they resolve in the order they were played. That is because we rule by what the cards say! The card already interrupts the normal passing of initiative by numbers, it should also bypass passing of initiative by removal because the card says to play as many as I wish. I wish to continue playing cards. That is the only check placed on the ability, the second line seems to me to pass initiative regardless of numbers because it says so, so there would be a chance to negate Wrath of Satan, if you had the appropriate negate. I don't see how this a broken way to play. Its exactly how the card says to play.
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I play arrogance, play Wrath of Satan, Swift Horses(for fun) draw three, play the drawn Murmuring, declare I am done and then they resolve in the order they were played.
Just for laughs, I thought I should mention that Sir Nobody suggested that you would not be able to play the Murmuring if you drew it with cards you targeted with Arrogance, since you are not allowed to retarget after you start activating the abilities.
Correct me if I misunderstood you, Tim.
We clearly need a final PTB ruling. ;)
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But I am clearly the target of the enhancement, so the target doesn't change. Precedence are cards like False Dreams and the like that target players.
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Yes, but you have to place the enhancements that you are playing into the field of battle first, then activate their abilities. Therefore, you would not be able to play a card that was drawn since you would already have passed initiative at that point. The cards activate "simultaneously," just before the transfer of initiative.
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... Yup I was inconsistent, but I stand by the rest of my post and am editing that out.
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We just need Rob or someone to come down from the mighty Cactus Tower and tell answer:
A) If a card played off arrogance removes all heroes from battle, can the defending player continue playing enhancements or does the rescuing player get to interrupt?
B) Does Arrogance target enhancements in your hand, or can you play any cards that you drew after playing Arrogance.
We need a solid ruling, because as the thread I linked and this thread show... all we do with arguing about it is go in circles, and never come to a solid conclusion. The card is worded kinda vague, so it very well could be as EITHER side says it is. Thats where Rob comes in and makes the final decision.
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Yes, but you have to place the enhancements that you are playing into the field of battle first, then activate their abilities. Therefore, you would not be able to play a card that was drawn since you would already have passed initiative at that point. The cards activate "simultaneously," just before the transfer of initiative.
As far as I know, if you play a card like Reach of Desperation, which allows you to draw cards and play the next Enhancement, you are allowed to play an Enhancement from the cards that you drew.
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Yes, but you have to place the enhancements that you are playing into the field of battle first, then activate their abilities. Therefore, you would not be able to play a card that was drawn since you would already have passed initiative at that point. The cards activate "simultaneously," just before the transfer of initiative.
As far as I know, if you play a card like Reach of Desperation, which allows you to draw cards and play the next Enhancement, you are allowed to play an Enhancement from the cards that you drew.
+1, the abilities activate in the order they are printed.
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Hey,
I said this in the Arrogance thread that was linked to earlier in this thread but I think it merits repeating.
Arrogance is like Babel for enhancements. You choose a certain number of enhancements to play put them all into play at once, they then take effect in the order you choose. Once the last enhancement completes you determine initiative normally (giving a character the opportunity to negate their own removal from battle if that is applicable).
I asked Mike to include a Play As for Arrogance in the REG update that is coming out this weekend. If things go smoothly come Monday Arrogance will have the play as, "Holder may play X enhancements." With the new identifier: "X = any number that holder chooses"
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
I said this in the Arrogance thread that was linked to earlier in this thread but I think it merits repeating.
Arrogance is like Babel for enhancements. You choose a certain number of enhancements to play put them all into play at once, they then take effect in the order you choose. Once the last enhancement completes you determine initiative normally (giving a character the opportunity to negate their own removal from battle if that is applicable).
I asked Mike to include a Play As for Arrogance in the REG update that is coming out this weekend. If things go smoothly come Monday Arrogance will have the play as, "Holder may play X enhancements." With the new identifier: "X = any number that holder chooses"
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Yay! ;D
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Hey,
A) If a card played off arrogance removes all heroes from battle, can the defending player continue playing enhancements or does the rescuing player get to interrupt?
The defender continues to play enhancements. Arrogance is an instantaneous ability, you do not determine or pass initiative until it's ability has completed.
B) Does Arrogance target enhancements in your hand, or can you play any cards that you drew after playing Arrogance.
It targets enhancements in your hand. You cannot play an enhancement that you drew after playing Arrogance as part of Arrogance's ability.
We need a solid ruling, because as the thread I linked and this thread show... all we do with arguing about it is go in circles, and never come to a solid conclusion. The card is worded kinda vague, so it very well could be as EITHER side says it is. Thats where Rob comes in and makes the final decision.
Mike's post on page 7 of the thread you linked to is official.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
A) If a card played off arrogance removes all heroes from battle, can the defending player continue playing enhancements or does the rescuing player get to interrupt?
The defender continues to play enhancements. Arrogance is an instantaneous ability, you do not determine or pass initiative until it's ability has completed.
So, the Wrath + Murmuring combo would indeed, demolish their entire offense unless they had like, Flaming Sword or Covenant of Noah? ;D
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Hey,
A) If a card played off arrogance removes all heroes from battle, can the defending player continue playing enhancements or does the rescuing player get to interrupt?
The defender continues to play enhancements. Arrogance is an instantaneous ability, you do not determine or pass initiative until it's ability has completed.
So, the Wrath + Murmuring combo would indeed, demolish their entire offense unless they had like, Flaming Sword or Covenant of Noah? ;D
Obediah's caves stops it (for prophets) , and if you add an end the battle enhancement Flaming Sword can't do anything ;D
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Hey,
I said this in the Arrogance thread that was linked to earlier in this thread but I think it merits repeating.
Arrogance is like Babel for enhancements. You choose a certain number of enhancements to play put them all into play at once, they then take effect in the order you choose. Once the last enhancement completes you determine initiative normally (giving a character the opportunity to negate their own removal from battle if that is applicable).
I asked Mike to include a Play As for Arrogance in the REG update that is coming out this weekend. If things go smoothly come Monday Arrogance will have the play as, "Holder may play X enhancements." With the new identifier: "X = any number that holder chooses"
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Please don't rush to making a play as. I disagree. Arrogance is not like Bable for enhancements. Allowing to play say Murmuring after Wrath would be a big mistake. Arragance is just fine playing it the way it is. If the rescueing hero is removed they can negate it. Each enhancement completes before you play the next enhancement. No stacking should be allowed.
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Please don't rush to making a play as. I disagree. Arrogance is not like Bable for enhancements. Allowing to play say Murmuring after Wrath would be a big mistake. Arragance is just fine playing it the way it is. If the rescueing hero is removed they can negate it. Each enhancement completes before you play the next enhancement. No stacking should be allowed.
It doesnt stack. Arrogance is an instant ability that lets you play as many enhancements as you want, THEN turn the table over to the opponent. If the game says "HEY WAIT A MINUTE, he gets to respond!" then you really are NOT getting to play as many enhancements as you want.
Also, your logic of "Arragance is just fine playing it the way it is" is flawed. Why? Because obviously nobody agrees one how it is played. So currently, it's only how YOU interpret it as being played. This is why this debate is here in the first place, because we are all trying to figure out EXACTLY how it is played.
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Also, your logic of "Arragance is just fine playing it the way it is" is flawed. Why? Because obviously nobody agrees one how it is played. So currently, it's only how YOU interpret it as being played. This is why this debate is here in the first place, because we are all trying to figure out EXACTLY how it is played.
Tell that to my Kerith Ravine thread. It feels the same way, nobody knows how it works.
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Haha, too true.
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Hey,
Please don't rush to making a play as.
Arrogance has been discussed ad naseum on more than one occasion privately. We're not rushing to anything, if anything we've been too slow to act on the matter which is why it keeps coming up.
Arragance is just fine playing it the way it is.
The way I described it as being like Babel is the way it is.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So, just to confirm as an example:
-play arrogance (select Wrath of Satan, Murmuring and Dream from hand)
-play wrath of satan -- all heroes are discarded, no chance to interrupt
-play murmuring -- heroes in discard pile (including any just discarded from battle) are removed from game
-play dream -- draw three cards -- at this point, initiative would normally pass, except dream allows an enhancement to be played. this can even include one I just drew.
-i decide not to play one and pass initiative to no one, as the hero is already dead
-during all of this, AotL does not work on my EC because the actions have not yet been completed
Right, Tim?
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Hey,
Right, Tim?
Correct.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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i decide not to play one and pass initiative to no one, as the hero is already dead
What!? You mean this bypasses the rule of being able to negate a card that is removing you?
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I don't think so. In his example, when intiative finally did pass then the opponent could play a negate as long as they could target Wrath. If his last card was an end the battle card then the opponent would not have a chance to negate.
To Tim:
I realize that what you are saying is probably the current official ruling. However there have been many times that a rule was "decided" and they later discovered a problem with it and changed it so I'm not giving up on this. I do agree that cards like this need to be clarified so people can use them without having a debate at every tournament but I feel your solution is not ideal.
From what I recall, the logic was that it targeted all the enhancements at once because Arrogance is listed in the "play next" section in the Reg and those cards target enhancements. That assumes that the categorization in the Reg was correct which I think is clearly faulty logic. I know that there is an effort to standadize the language and the abilities but I don't think you should force a card into a group that it obviously is not according the language on the card. What you are saying is errata not a play as.
There are several cards that have no precedent, are unique to the game, and you do what they say not something else that is worked out in the rule set. I don't see why this can't simply be a unique card (in the miscellaneous section?) that targets a player and temporarily changes the rules of initiative for a battle, which is what the card sounds like it is doing.
The only reason I can see to not do this is that it might be considered overpowered but I thought we tried to not base rules on that. Also, since the best draw cards allow you to play an additional enhancement anyway then I don't think it will make much practical difference in the game.
So for gameplay it doesn't matter much to me but I prefer to have as few Holy Grail-like erratas as possible (where a new player will only know the correct language if they check the card online).
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i decide not to play one and pass initiative to no one, as the hero is already dead
What!? You mean this bypasses the rule of being able to negate a card that is removing you?
It bypasses the rule that when the EC's numbers are higher than the hero, the hero gets initative.... so why wouldn't it bypass that rule as well?
I don't really see a problem with ONE card allowing such a situation to happen. Besides, as Gabe said, not many people use it.
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Hey,
i decide not to play one and pass initiative to no one, as the hero is already dead
What!? You mean this bypasses the rule of being able to negate a card that is removing you?
If a card played under the Arrogance umbrella discards your hero, you would get initiative to negate it, but not until after Arrogance completes.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So I would be able to negate a wrath of satan + murmuring?
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Yes, assuming you ever got initiative to play (i.e. they didn't end the battle with Gibeonite Trickery or something).
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If you ended the battle with Forgotten History or Wonders Forgotten, you might not even need Murmuring.
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If you ended the battle with Forgotten History or Wonders Forgotten, you might not even need Murmuring.
Unless their entire offense wasn't out, then they might be able to use Chariots of fire or something
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Wait? Who would you interrupt with? Your guys are removed from the game. :-\
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Exactly.
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Wait? Who would you interrupt with? Your guys are removed from the game. :-\
Covenant of Noah
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Hey,
Wait? Who would you interrupt with? Your guys are removed from the game. :-\
If you negate the ability that discarded your characters you would indirectly negate their removal from game.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That's the part I'm having an issue with. I can see fudging the numbers to let you play an interrupt on someone being Discarded because it's a needed part of the game. But they've already been removed from the game by the time they would "normally" get a chance to interrupt. How can you play an interrupt on someone who is not being removed from the game, but already is removed from the game?
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The way I described it as being like Babel is the way it is.
Not in MN.
Please forgive me, you have to remember I learned how to interpret cards from Chris Bany who in the early days was the keeper of the REG’S and made most of the rulings.
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Yeah, Chris is awesome, I remember the good old days when MN was ahead of everybody.
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You mean right now?
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You mean right now?
Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).
To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).
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Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).
To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).
Iowa is basically MN Jr. for Redemption purposes. I travel to their tournaments when I want some good competition. I learn as much or more playing people from MN as I do from these boards.
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Iowa is basically MN Jr. for Redemption purposes. I travel to their tournaments when I want some good competition. I learn as much or more playing people from MN as I do from these boards
He's being humble, he comes up to MN to stop me from maxing out locals and districts.
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That's the part I'm having an issue with. I can see fudging the numbers to let you play an interrupt on someone being Discarded because it's a needed part of the game. But they've already been removed from the game by the time they would "normally" get a chance to interrupt. How can you play an interrupt on someone who is not being removed from the game, but already is removed from the game?
Because you always have an opportunity to negate your own discard/removal assuming something isn't preventing it (CBN or end-the-battle, for instance). If you were to stack an end-the-battle card too, then it could not be negated.
Negating it is tougher than you think, anyway, because you'd have to negate an enhancement played a couple of enhancements ago, not just the "last" enhancement.
Kevin Shride
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That's the part I'm having an issue with. I can see fudging the numbers to let you play an interrupt on someone being Discarded because it's a needed part of the game. But they've already been removed from the game by the time they would "normally" get a chance to interrupt. How can you play an interrupt on someone who is not being removed from the game, but already is removed from the game?
This is the Grand Paradox of the game, you are always always always afforded a "last-chance" initiative to negate a special ability that is causing you to lose the battle. (/waits for the rules lawyers to come back and talk about cannot-be-negated cards and DoU-type cards and blah blah blah. I know. I'm just talking about initiative when losing.)
It's no different than delaying the "instant" ability to discard you under normal circumstances, e.g. Coliseum Lions", only in the case of Arrogance, the other player must finish resolving his ability to play cards, after which you still get your paradoxical "last-chance" card. Of course, Arrogance still presents the opportunity to thwart your efforts, because unless this has changed on me, if they play Coliseum Lions on your Hero, and then some other card(s), then a negate-last would not work because the one that killed you was not the "last" card played.
:edit: Yeah, what Kevin said.
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But an interrupt the battle card would work, since an opponent's SA is causing you to lose by removal? Then that leads to the question of how which enhancements are then interrupted. Say I have King David vs. Archers of Kedar. If my opponent played Arrogance, CLions, Mask of Worldliness, two deck d/c cards, and a capture, and I play Reach, then AoCP, which of my opponent's abilities happen?
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Tim it sounds like you are saying contradictory things. Your brevity is making things less clear, at least for me. Based on my example, it looks like there is no opportunity to interrupt Wrath becasue the hero in battle is in the discard pile and then removed from the game. Aside from something like covenant of noah, does the hero get a chance to play an interrupt enhancement?
I don't see how he could since he is already removed from the game.
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But an interrupt the battle card would work, since an opponent's SA is causing you to lose by removal? Then that leads to the question of how which enhancements are then interrupted. Say I have King David vs. Archers of Kedar. If my opponent played Arrogance, CLions, Mask of Worldliness, two deck d/c cards, and a capture, and I play Reach, then AoCP, which of my opponent's abilities happen?
I believe the ones that would be interrupted are the one causing the hero to lose and the capture, since it was the last one played.
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But an interrupt the battle card would work, since an opponent's SA is causing you to lose by removal? Then that leads to the question of how which enhancements are then interrupted. Say I have King David vs. Archers of Kedar. If my opponent played Arrogance, CLions, Mask of Worldliness, two deck d/c cards, and a capture, and I play Reach, then AoCP, which of my opponent's abilities happen?
Lets visit the basics.
Interrupt the Battle
Interrupt the battle interrupts the following:
• Your opponent’s special abilities that are (1) causing you to be losing by removal (e.g., your opponent’s Net), or (2) causing a mutual destruction by mutual removal (e.g., your opponent’s King Zimri but not your own King Zimri).
• The last enhancement played in battle, as long as it was played by an opponent (e.g., your opponent’s False Peace but not your own Reach of Desperation).
• ALL ongoing special abilities (see Ongoing Abilities).
Therefore, it would interrupt Coliseum Lions (causing you to lose by removal) and the Capture (last enhancement played by opponent)
Kirk
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Hey,
I don't see how he could since he is already removed from the game.
If I play Joseph in Prison you can negate it even though your hero is already removed from the game. In this example with Wrath there is an extra step but the end result is the same.
Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN.
I count three that were from MN: Nathan Voigt, Matt Brinkman, and Tim Maly :D
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
I don't see how he could since he is already removed from the game.
If I play Joseph in Prison you can negate it even though your hero is already removed from the game. In this example with Wrath there is an extra step but the end result is the same.
I guess I never saw this as "already being removed from the game" just "about to be unless you interrupt right now". I always thought it was carry out abilities immedidately, unless they are interrupted. Since initiative never passes until it is too late, the interrupt opportunity wouldn't be there. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong.
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You mean right now?
Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).
To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).
Nope the people in MN are not ahead of all others around the nation, just some. Likewise others around the nation are ahead of alot of the Minnesota players. Your facts are correct however you should remember that,
1) No Alstads were at Nationals
2) RNRS is a joke
3) RNRS is a joke
4) RNRS is a joke
5) Did I mention that RNRS is a joke?
(no offense to any one who has placed in RNRS)
Ps, I don't ever remember placing in two RNRS catagories.
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Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else.
If you go back to 2004 Nationals to the present time, I believe you will find MN pretty much near the top in terms of Nationals placings. :)
Furthermore, some of the MN greats have not competed at Nationals during this time such as Chris Bany and Mike Turnidge.
From my memory:
2004: T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T2 MP Jordan Alstad 2nd
2005: Sealed Seth Micke 1st, T2 MP Adam Erickson 1st, Justin Alstad 3rd, T1 2P Jonathan Alstad 2nd, T1 MP David Ebert 1st Booster Draft Jacob Weisenburger 3rd
2006: T2 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, Jonathan Alstad 2nd (2 more Alstads in the top 7)
2007: T2 MP Nathan Voigt 1st, T2 2P Justin Alstad 1st
2008: T1 2P Nathan Voigt 2nd T2 MP Matt Brinkman 2nd
There could even be a few I'm missing, don't have time to double check the spreadsheets right now.
And oh yeah, Tim Maly is pretty much from MN so throw in all his placings in there too... :D
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Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).
To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).
Iowa is basically MN Jr. for Redemption purposes. I travel to their tournaments when I want some good competition. I learn as much or more playing people from MN as I do from these boards.
Thanks Gabe. I know you're talking about West Minnesota.
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If you go back to 2004 Nationals to the present time, I believe you will find MN pretty much near the top in terms of Nationals placings. :)
Furthermore, some of the MN greats have not competed at Nationals during this time such as Chris Bany and Mike Turnidge.
From my memory:
2004: T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T2 MP Jordan Alstad 2nd, T1 2P Jordan Alstad 3rd
2005: Sealed Seth Micke 1st, T2 MP Adam Erickson 1st, Justin Alstad 3rd, T1 2P Jonathan Alstad 2nd, T1 MP David Ebert 1st Booster Draft Jacob Weisenburger 3rd
2006: T2 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, Jonathan Alstad 2nd (2 more Alstads in the top 7)
2007: T2 MP Nathan Voigt 1st, T2 2P Justin Alstad 1st
2008: T1 2P Nathan Voigt 2nd T2 MP Matt Brinkman 2nd
There could even be a few I'm missing, don't have time to double check the spreadsheets right now.
And oh yeah, Tim Maly is pretty much from MN so throw in all his placings in there too... :D
Fixed. I was actually happier about my 3rd place finish in T1 2P than my second place in T2 MP. My deck used Glory of the Lord like none other that I've seen. Sadly, Blue Tassels and Priestly Crown have since been effectively removed from the Temple. But it sure was sweet to frustrate any popular defensive strategy of the day, be it site lockout, BTN, Capture, or territory destruction.
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I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"
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I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"
Now I am too, thanks for sharing ;D
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I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"
I am enjoying it as well.
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I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"
as am i
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I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"
Really guys? ::)
While it is ironic, (and yes I noticed it too) I truly hope you don't believe it's actually arrogance, because that was not the point. It was a statement of fact. Notice I never said "MN is best, end of story." Prof made a claim, I made a counter point and backed it up with indisputable data, that's all it is folks. :)
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I was just pointing out the irony. ;)
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Fair enough, I simply did not want people to think my brother and I were arrogant, stuck up players who only care about winning and being recognized for it, that was all. :)
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I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"
Gotta love the irony (which, if you couldn't guess by my internet name, I do :P) ;D
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dont worry justin we love you man ;D
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.philsnextkick.com%2Fimages%2Fcards%2Fplayers%2Ffaf.jpg&hash=943d01b947c8198e7e4af7a146121bf50540c667)
Is this the face of Arrogance? i think not
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Oh good times... ;D
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Ha ha. That is awesome.