Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Red Dragon Thorn on March 25, 2011, 02:32:38 AM
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How does Ambush work?
Specifically, when does the special ability on the hero activate?
Ambush (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Common)
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I would think:
"This face-down hero has access to any site. When this face-down hero is blocked or opponent chooses not to block this hero, flip hero face-up."
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So I wonder... Tangential thought here... Is the CBN site access gained permanently by the hero?
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So I wonder... Tangential thought here... Is the CBN site access gained permanently by the hero?
No. The site access is only for the face-down hero, which would end after the first battle.
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How does Ambush work?
Specifically, when does the special ability on the hero activate?
Ambush (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Common)
As soon as the hero begins the battle. Ambush's SA allows for the insertion of EC abilities between the hero's abilities. Order:
1. Site access
2. Triggered ability that allows insertion of EC abilities
3. EC abilities
4. Triggered ability to flip hero
5. Remaining hero abilites
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I'm reviving this to ask what happens in the hero is unblocked. Does he stay facedown? Does he still have access?
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I was about to then i figured it was in the errata disguised as play as.
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The "play as" is correct, even if it might rather be called errata.
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So Ambush was errata'd? How come?
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Additionally, if he 'chooses not to block' does that mean he gives up the lost soul? Or is it similar to a BC becoming an RA in that the opponent can decline to block, then present one after Harvest Time.
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I think he should get the soul if unblocked and then flip after battle resolution so he doesnt get to use ability.
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If opponent doesn't block, then you flip the hero and see if he can rescue the lost soul (if he is N.T., angel, etc.).
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I think he should get the soul if unblocked and then flip after battle resolution so he doesnt get to use ability.
I agree with Bryon that the hero gets flipped up if the opponent chooses to not block, and I agree that the LS has to be given once the flip happens. But I think maniac has a good point too, that the hero's SA shouldn't happen since it would've been upside down the whole time, therefore doing the flip during battle resolution makes sense.
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How exactly can a Hero enter battle, or be turned face up and their ability doesn't activate?
The Heroes ability triggers when it's turned face up. All other triggered abilities work during battle resolution (Hormah for example). I don't see any reason the Hero wouldn't too.
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Gabe is correct.
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Ambush
• Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up.
The Centurion at Calvary
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 7 / 6 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate special abilities on Evil Characters and evil weapons. Hero has access to all Sites
From the REG:
An “access to any site” ability loses access to a site initially chosen when it ceases to hold a Lost Soul.
Scenario: Centurion at Calvary returns from Ambush set aside card. Centurion enters battle face down. Opponent has 3 lost souls, all in Egypt sites. The owner of Centurion chooses to have access to the Egypt on the "left". The opponent plays SoG/NJ on the lost soul on the "left" and another soul. Thus the face down hero has lost access by Ambush...
How does an "Ambushed" Centurion work into this ruling? If we agree that the hero has an opportunity to activate before ending battle resolution, then the Centurion will have an opportunity to gain access to ALL lost souls.
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If you read the very next section of "Gain Access" portion of the REG is says:
Clarifications
Because gain access abilities are dynamic and only one Lost Soul can be rescued in each battle, there is no functional difference between gaining access to “any” (one) site and gaining access to “all” (all) sites.
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AFAIK, in a T1 game, "access to any site" is the same as "access to all sites", meaning that you don't actually choose the site you are gaining access to. I'm not sure if that section of the REG is a relic from before the update, or if it is just confusing. Any ambushed Hero should have access to any and all sites that have Lost Souls in them.
EDIT: Instaposted.
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Gotcha, here I went and looked up a list of cards with "any site" in the SA to see if I was playing any of them wrong. But there is no difference in how they're played. We should probably get the phrase I quoted removed if possible. Thanks Gabe and Jordan!
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How exactly can a Hero enter battle, or be turned face up and their ability doesn't activate?
How can the Hero get turned face up when they aren't blocked and the card that put them face down says to flip them when they are blocked. This whole situation is weirdness to begin with.
I thought at first that we were treating the whole RA as if Ambush's SA was carried out, and then at the end we were just flipping the card to prove to the opponent that the upside down card was indeed a hero. If that is the case, then the SA of the hero should never activate because it was in effect face-down the whole time.
But it seems like you are suggesting that if the defender refuses to block, that we flip the card and proceed as if it were a regular RA and have all SAs activate. This seems to be going against the spirit of the SA on Ambush more than RTSmaniac's alternative. Is that the way we want to go?
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But it seems like you are suggesting that if the defender refuses to block, that we flip the card and proceed as if it were a regular RA and have all SAs activate. This seems to be going against the spirit of the SA on Ambush more than RTSmaniac's alternative. Is that the way we want to go?
From what I gather, that's the way we've already gone. At one time Ambush was commonly used in T2, but that pre-dates me. At Nationals this same question came up about Ambush. Not only did we get a ruling but at that time (or maybe it was later) I got a brief history lesson about the awesomeness of Ambush in T2. The short answer is that Ambush has been played that the Hero is flipped over if the opponent declines to block. It's SA activates and a LS is awarded if they have access.
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But it seems like you are suggesting that if the defender refuses to block, that we flip the card and proceed as if it were a regular RA and have all SAs activate. This seems to be going against the spirit of the SA on Ambush more than RTSmaniac's alternative. Is that the way we want to go?
From what I gather, that's the way we've already gone. At one time Ambush was commonly used in T2, but that pre-dates me. At Nationals this same question came up about Ambush. Not only did we get a ruling but at that time (or maybe it was later) I got a brief history lesson about the awesomeness of Ambush in T2. The short answer is that Ambush has been played that the Hero is flipped over if the opponent declines to block. It's SA activates and a LS is awarded if they have access.
Ah, yes, the glory days of Mentor+ET.
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I don't feel like tradition should dictate the special ability of Ambush. I agree with Prof Underwood that if there is no evil character, the play as ability doesn't allow the hero to be flipped (because he was not blocked).
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there was a reason but i dont remember now and the post since purged...
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I don't feel like tradition should dictate the special ability of Ambush. I agree with Prof Underwood that if there is no evil character, the play as ability doesn't allow the hero to be flipped (because he was not blocked).
I agree. If the only reason is to ensure that the card is a hero, that's kinda lame. If it gets it and you are that concerned, just call a judge and ask them to look at the facedown card.
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If opponent doesn't block, then you flip the hero and see if he can rescue the lost soul (if he is N.T., angel, etc.).
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Ok. But shouldn't that be in the play-as or errata somewhere? Because I wouldn't assume that.
And then the question still remains, does he get his special ability during battle resolution? What if his ability is to choose an opponent's evil character to block, but he chose not to block? Does that activate? Like Asahel.
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Ok. But shouldn't that be in the play-as or errata somewhere? Because I wouldn't assume that.
And then the question still remains, does he get his special ability during battle resolution? What if his ability is to choose an opponent's evil character to block, but he chose not to block? Does that activate? Like Asahel.
Yes, it activates no matter what your opponent decided to do about blocking. After all, that's part of what "choose the blocker" is all about. ;)
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Ok. But shouldn't that be in the play-as or errata somewhere? Because I wouldn't assume that.
And then the question still remains, does he get his special ability during battle resolution? What if his ability is to choose an opponent's evil character to block, but he chose not to block? Does that activate? Like Asahel.
Yes, it activates no matter what your opponent decided to do about blocking. After all, that's part of what "choose the blocker" is all about. ;)
Yes, is a CtB ability activates, then you get to choose a blocker. At that point, the battle becomes interesting.
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Apparently Gabe, Bryon, and the "other Prof" all agree that the SA on an "ambush"d hero should activate after it is flipped up despite it not being blocked. Therefore, this should be considered the official ruling at this point.
And that would include CTB.
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So does the battle now reverse a step, and go back to battle phase, or stay in battle resolution, and although they block no enhancement can be played?
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So does the battle now reverse a step, and go back to battle phase, or stay in battle resolution, and although they block no enhancement can be played?
Just because your opponent refuses to block doesn't mean you go directly to battle resolution. You have to flip the hero, activate the SA and then complete any further battle activities that may arise prior to entering battle resolution.
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But Bryon's explanation was that you are flipping him up to decide which ls he can get. That is battle resolution.
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Actually you are flipping the hero up to see if it has access to a lost soul. You still don't receive it until battle resolution.
An unintended consequence of this is that now your opponent will at least get to respond with a dominant if you activate a choose the blocker ability.
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So let's say it's Asahel's band ability you choose, and you band to Ishmaiah and draw 2. Can they block now?
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No, they already chose not to block. And since you did not choose a blocker, then battle resolution would begin.
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If they are not able to block, you are in battle resolution. That has always been my understanding.
Battle phase - you can attack, they can block, play enhancement, someone wins.
Battle Resolution - decide which lost souls are eligible for rescue.
Am I wrong on how I am defining this? Because if you are flipping up to decide which ls you can rescue, that should be battle resolution. You don't determine ls eligibility in the battle phase (well only to determine if it is a battle challenge).
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Deciding which lost souls are eligible for rescue occurs in the Battle portion of the Battle Phase, as there are cards that refer to Rescue Attempt, which can only be known if there are souls to be rescued.
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Ok. But shouldn't that be in the play-as or errata somewhere? Because I wouldn't assume that.
It is in the Play As!
Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up.
Mike
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Deciding which lost souls are eligible for rescue occurs in the Battle portion of the Battle Phase, as there are cards that refer to Rescue Attempt, which can only be known if there are souls to be rescued.
Ok, thanks. I thought there were two checks for lost souls. One when you enter battle to determine if it is a rescue attempt or battle challenge, and then one during battle resolution to determine which one you rescue. I guess I was wrong.