Author Topic: Ambush the City and Moses (Read 3351 times)

adotson85 · « **on:** May 15, 2012, 03:01:15 AM »

If I play AtC on Moses to set-aside all the characters in battle, then is the new battle still fbtn?

Ambush the City (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, set all cards in battle aside (regardless of immunity). Holder may begin a new rescue attempt against same player. Once new rescue attempt is completed, the original battle resumes as a battle challenge. Cannot be negated.

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2012, 04:25:05 AM »

Yep. Moses' effect wasn't stopped so it continues to affect the field.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2012, 12:52:34 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 04:25:05 AM

Yep. Moses' effect wasn't stopped so it continues to affect the field.

Mega is correct.

Scoobug · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2012, 01:37:15 PM »

My understanding is that unless it is negated the FBTN status stays present for the rest of the battle. Correct?

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2012, 02:33:58 PM »

I've heard various answers about whether cards like that start a new battle phase or just a new battle. Is there a difference between Ambush and Grapes, etc?

Also, if they bring in Moses for the second battle, does it remain FBTN when it goes back to the original battle? I've heard no on that which is part of the confusion, I think. It seems weird to transfer one direction and not the other and I can never seem to remember which way does what when this comes up.

SirNobody · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:16:10 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 15, 2012, 02:33:58 PM

I've heard various answers about whether cards like that start a new battle phase or just a new battle. Is there a difference between Ambush and Grapes, etc?

Side battle cards start a second battle in the same battle phase. Cards that create a new normal battle (good vs evil) create a new battle phase for the new battle. In the case of Ambush the City this results in nested battle phases. In the case of Grapes it creates consecutive battle phases.

Quote

Also, if they bring in Moses for the second battle, does it remain FBTN when it goes back to the original battle? I've heard no on that which is part of the confusion, I think. It seems weird to transfer one direction and not the other and I can never seem to remember which way does what when this comes up.

If Moses is brought in for the second battle, he negates anything still in play for the duration of the original battle (not the cards from that battle because they are set aside, but a placed enhancement like Herod's Treachery in a territory would be negated until the end of the original battle). He prevents abilities for the duration of the second battle. When the second battle ends Moses' ability ends and the original battle resumes with Moses' ability no longer in effect.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

megamanlan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:33:20 PM »

Wait, are u saying that ambush the city is a 'new battle phase' or not?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:43:07 PM »

Not. It's battleception.

SirNobody · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:49:26 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 03:33:20 PM

Wait, are u saying that ambush the city is a 'new battle phase' or not?

Ambush the City is not a side battle card. It does create a new battle phase.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2012, 04:01:45 PM »

Quote

In the case of Ambush the City this results in nested battle phases. In the case of Grapes it creates consecutive battle phases.

Quote

Ambush the City is not a side battle card. It does create a new battle phase.

Wut?

Drrek · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2012, 04:24:07 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 15, 2012, 04:01:45 PM

Quote
In the case of Ambush the City this results in nested battle phases. In the case of Grapes it creates consecutive battle phases.
Quote
Ambush the City is not a side battle card. It does create a new battle phase.
Wut?

Ambush the city does not create a side battle, it sets the current battle aside and starts a new one.

megamanlan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2012, 04:26:40 PM »

That doesn't really seem to make sense since another Elder agreed with me, that it's a side battle...
It seems to me that the Battle phase did not end.

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2012, 05:15:12 PM »

What Nobody seems to be saying is that AtC creates a new battle phase without ending the one in which it was played, "nested phases" he called it. The first phase doesn't end until the second phase completely finishes and the first battle resumes/completes.

megamanlan · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2012, 07:35:57 PM »

Wouldn't that mean that Moses' effect would still be active because the phase is not over against what SirNobody seemed to assume?

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:27:13 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 04:26:40 PM

That doesn't really seem to make sense since another Elder agreed with me, that it's a side battle...
It seems to me that the Battle phase did not end.

While I can see both sides, it has always been ruled by every judge and host in my region as SirNobody described. And just because an Elder agrees on one side, once another disagrees they've got to resolve it. Neither of us is 'right' until they make a unified ruling.

megamanlan · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:35:56 PM »

I know that, so can maybe the Elders discuss this on the other side and come back w/ a ruling?

Korunks · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:58:38 PM »

Maybe I am missing something but they seem to be in agreement, both are saying Moses FBTN carry's over into battle 2.

adotson85 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:13:25 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 08:58:38 PM

Maybe I am missing something but they seem to be in agreement, both are saying Moses FBTN carry's over into battle 2.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Both elders seem to be in agreement from what I have seen.

megamanlan · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:28:53 PM »

As far as I see, SirNobody is saying a new Battle Phase starts, and once a Phase ends/starts effects on the previous phase is stopped/completed.

adotson85 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2012, 11:27:47 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on May 15, 2012, 03:16:10 PM

Hey,

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 15, 2012, 02:33:58 PM
I've heard various answers about whether cards like that start a new battle phase or just a new battle. Is there a difference between Ambush and Grapes, etc?

Side battle cards start a second battle in the same battle phase. Cards that create a new normal battle (good vs evil) create a new battle phase for the new battle. In the case of Ambush the City this results in nested battle phases. In the case of Grapes it creates consecutive battle phases.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Redoubter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 16, 2012, 12:25:28 AM »

You bolded the wrong part. This card is not a side-battle card, it starts a whole new battle (the second sentence in what you quoted), and thus results in new battle phases.

Quote

In the case of Ambush the City this results in nested battle phases. In the case of Grapes it creates consecutive battle phases.

Quote

Ambush the City is not a side battle card. It does create a new battle phase.

Quote from: SirNobody on May 15, 2012, 03:16:10 PM

If Moses is brought in for the second battle, he negates anything still in play for the duration of the original battle (not the cards from that battle because they are set aside, but a placed enhancement like Herod's Treachery in a territory would be negated until the end of the original battle). He prevents abilities for the duration of the second battle. When the second battle ends Moses' ability ends and the original battle resumes with Moses' ability no longer in effect.

SirNobody is saying (as I've had it ruled in our area since I've been playing) that AtC creates a new battle phase, and FBTN does not carry over between the battles. That's the discrepancy when compared to:

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 15, 2012, 12:52:34 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 04:25:05 AM
Yep. Moses' effect wasn't stopped so it continues to affect the field.

Mega is correct.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2012, 12:48:28 AM »

If Moses was in the original battle then I believe his FBTN would carry into AtC's new battle phase since that battle phase is nested inside the original phase which means Moses' effect hasn't ended yet. That is the difference between him originating in the first battle versus the second battle.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2012, 01:20:58 AM »

Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 12:48:28 AM

If Moses was in the original battle then I believe his FBTN would carry into AtC's new battle phase since that battle phase is nested inside the original phase which means Moses' effect hasn't ended yet. That is the difference between him originating in the first battle versus the second battle.

Based on it being a new battle phase (arguing that side just because I can see both sides), it shouldn't. If it is a different phase as SirNobody suggests, then FBTN would not transfer, just like he suggests FBTN from the second battle would not transfer. Different phase, so no shared abilities.

megamanlan · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2012, 09:48:41 AM »

At least we're on the same page, but my opinion is that it's not a new battle phase, because it's an Enhancement starting a battle, I can explain later...

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** May 16, 2012, 01:40:59 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 01:20:58 AM

Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
If Moses was in the original battle then I believe his FBTN would carry into AtC's new battle phase since that battle phase is nested inside the original phase which means Moses' effect hasn't ended yet. That is the difference between him originating in the first battle versus the second battle.

Based on it being a new battle phase (arguing that side just because I can see both sides), it shouldn't. If it is a different phase as SirNobody suggests, then FBTN would not transfer, just like he suggests FBTN from the second battle would not transfer. Different phase, so no shared abilities.

It's a new phase within another phase. Abilities don't end when a new phase starts, then end when the current phase ends. There is nothing about starting a new phase while one is ongoing that would stop Moses' ability which is why it carries over into the second battle phase. However, the second phase does actually end before the first resumes so that's why Moses' ability when used in the second battle ends after the second battle phase completes and doesn't carry back to the original, first phase.

Redoubter · « **Reply #25 on:** May 16, 2012, 01:43:58 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 01:40:59 PM

It's a new phase within another phase. Abilities don't end when a new phase starts, then end when the current phase ends.

Actually, abilities that aren't specifically ongoing continuously or until the end of the turn are only active in the phase they activated. If a new battle phase is started, not sure that it follows that anything from the other phase carries over by that precedent.

browarod · « **Reply #26 on:** May 16, 2012, 01:48:00 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 01:43:58 PM

Actually, abilities that aren't specifically ongoing continuously or until the end of the turn are only active in the phase they activated.

That's correct. And the initial battle phase that AtC was played in is still going, so abilities active for that phase remain active.

Redoubter · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:00:31 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 01:48:00 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 01:43:58 PM
Actually, abilities that aren't specifically ongoing continuously or until the end of the turn are only active in the phase they activated.
That's correct. And the initial battle phase that AtC was played in is still going, so abilities active for that phase remain active.

Again, I can see both sides. Just debating this side for lack of support

The wording of the card though has an entirely new battle phase begin, and the other one is on hold. Whatever was happening in that battle is not currently in play or active, the whole thing was set aside to be continued later based on the wording. This new battle is just that: A new battle phase. Abilities don't continue from one phase to the next if Grapes is played, and shouldn't in this case either.

browarod · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:05:05 PM »

There's a difference between something that specifically removes all characters from battle and ends the battle (Grapes) and a card that pauses a battle, carries out a new battle, then resumes the original battle (AtC). One creates a new phase after one that just ended, the other creates a new phase within the phase that does NOT end. I really don't see why they should be treated the same when they do very different things, but perhaps you can enlighten me as to your thinking.

megamanlan · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:19:31 PM »

Idk, I'm too confused... Couldn't they just put it that all Battles go on during the same battle phase (unless a card gives u another battle phase)?

Drrek · « **Reply #30 on:** May 16, 2012, 02:52:11 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 01:40:59 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 01:20:58 AM
Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
If Moses was in the original battle then I believe his FBTN would carry into AtC's new battle phase since that battle phase is nested inside the original phase which means Moses' effect hasn't ended yet. That is the difference between him originating in the first battle versus the second battle.

Based on it being a new battle phase (arguing that side just because I can see both sides), it shouldn't. If it is a different phase as SirNobody suggests, then FBTN would not transfer, just like he suggests FBTN from the second battle would not transfer. Different phase, so no shared abilities.
It's a new phase within another phase. Abilities don't end when a new phase starts, then end when the current phase ends. There is nothing about starting a new phase while one is ongoing that would stop Moses' ability which is why it carries over into the second battle phase. However, the second phase does actually end before the first resumes so that's why Moses' ability when used in the second battle ends after the second battle phase completes and doesn't carry back to the original, first phase.

I feel like this ruling is at least somewhat needlessly complicated.

megamanlan · « **Reply #31 on:** May 16, 2012, 03:11:53 PM »

I agree, thats why I suggest suggest having all of them in the same battle phase no matter what.

browarod · « **Reply #32 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:10:27 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 16, 2012, 03:11:53 PM

I agree, thats why I suggest suggest having all of them in the same battle phase no matter what.

In that case, Moses would definitely be active in the second battle.

megamanlan · « **Reply #33 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:27:07 PM »

Yep, it would be a lot simpler.

The M · « **Reply #34 on:** May 16, 2012, 07:03:13 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 01:40:59 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on May 16, 2012, 01:20:58 AM
Quote from: browarod on May 16, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
If Moses was in the original battle then I believe his FBTN would carry into AtC's new battle phase since that battle phase is nested inside the original phase which means Moses' effect hasn't ended yet. That is the difference between him originating in the first battle versus the second battle.

Based on it being a new battle phase (arguing that side just because I can see both sides), it shouldn't. If it is a different phase as SirNobody suggests, then FBTN would not transfer, just like he suggests FBTN from the second battle would not transfer. Different phase, so no shared abilities.
It's a new phase within another phase. Abilities don't end when a new phase starts, then end when the current phase ends. There is nothing about starting a new phase while one is ongoing that would stop Moses' ability which is why it carries over into the second battle phase. However, the second phase does actually end before the first resumes so that's why Moses' ability when used in the second battle ends after the second battle phase completes and doesn't carry back to the original, first phase.

PHASECEPTION

I think this does kind of complicate things and would agree with mega.

browarod · « **Reply #35 on:** May 16, 2012, 07:59:13 PM »

Either way, the answer to the question is that Moses' ability from the first battle carries over to the new battle when Ambush the City is played.

News:

Author Topic: Ambush the City and Moses (Read 3351 times)

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