Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Red Warrior on June 28, 2012, 10:27:14 PM
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Player A rescues with King Amaziah, chooses King Elah to block. Player B plays Mask of Fear on Elah. Amaziah is negated, Elah is returned to Player A's territory...
Player B intends to use a Gold Evil Character from hand to block...
Does Mask of Fear linger in battle until Player B places his EC in battle?
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Pre-block choose the blocker is inherently CBI
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Pre-block choose the blocker is inherently CBI
+1.
Special Conditions
A choose opponent ability used before a blocker is presented cannot be interrupted after the ability has completed.
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Haven't run across that issue before (surprisingly).
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I say there are too many effects are CBI..
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I say there are too many effects are CBI..
There are only two special cases, play abilities and preblock CtB, that are inherently CBI. Both have very good reasons for being that way to avoid confusing situations.
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Play abilities CBI? wow, that will change things.
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I've heard of other things that are inherently CBI (like end the battle) and I don't see why Play should be CBI.
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Play abilities have been CBI for...a long time now. It's also in the REG under a description of Play abilities.
However, Prof:
Can you help to resolve the question of what happens to a card that is played that was drawn by a "DX-Play" card. Can it be "unplayed" by negating the draw?
Can you help to resolve the question of what happens to a card that is played without a Play SA, but was drawn by an ability. Can it be "unplayed" by negating the draw?
I ask because of this thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/can%27t-be-negated/), and all the research I've done shows that there was to be a discussion on the Elder side...and I can't find anything after that using Google searches. Please advise how these are played.
I've heard of other things that are inherently CBI (like end the battle) and I don't see why Play should be CBI.
I told you in that thread I posted a link to above that play is CBI, so you have seen it, and I've shown you the link to the REG where the rule lies in that thread as well. Proof was provided to you. And there are great reasons Play is CBI. Would you like me to use a CBN enhancement off of a Play card, return it to my hand by negating the Play, and then play it again to get double the bang for one card?
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I'm saying it doesn't hurt the game too much for gameplay reasons, it's not needed. I mean besides that now I know a card that you played, why is Play abilities CBI? I understand that it has been for a long time, I'm just trying to figure out why that's true, because it makes no sense to me.
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I'm saying it doesn't hurt the game too much for gameplay reasons, it's not needed. I mean besides that now I know a card that you played, why is Play abilities CBI? I understand that it has been for a long time, I'm just trying to figure out why that's true, because it makes no sense to me.
It's a rule for the reasons I explained above. If you read my post, you'd see that I could have a recurring combo of using CBN cards that kept returning them to my hand for reuse. That's a perfect gameplay reason why it's needed. And as I already said that, you must not think so, so why don't you explain why that's not an issue?
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And what exact combo would that be?
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And what exact combo would that be?
The one I just spelled out. Twice.
I play an ITB-Draw-Play to throw down a CBN enhancement. I then play something that negates the play. Enhancement returns to hand, but the effect on the CBN enhancement sticks (see: CBN). Play CBN enhancement again now or save for the next time you want to use this combo.
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I'm saying, give an example of an actual card combo that if it was used would make an OP card back to your hand (that isn't from an Opponent making a stupid move)
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I rescue with Susanna.
I play Words of Encouragement. (Draw 'He is Risen')
I play Faith in our High Priest
I play 'He is Risen' setting aside your character and banding in TSA.
Next turn.
I redraw 'He is Risen'
I use Consider the Lillies to recur Faith.
I play both again.
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Thats not what I'm saying, I'm questioning why play abilities are CBI which means in your example, Faith would get kicked back to hand (if you negated it) and my arguement would be treat is as if it was never played. Simple solution, and besides not many cards that are commonly played can negate any of the Draw/Plays because it's usually followed by a battle-winner which you would want to negate more then that card.
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Thats not what I'm saying, I'm questioning why play abilities are CBI which means in your example, Faith would get kicked back to hand (if you negated it) and my arguement would be treat is as if it was never played.
You can't indirectly negate something that cannot be negated. CBN means it cannot be negated, no way, no how.
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Thats not what I'm saying, I'm questioning why play abilities are CBI which means in your example, Faith would get kicked back to hand (if you negated it) and my arguement would be treat is as if it was never played. Simple solution, and besides not many cards that are commonly played can negate any of the Draw/Plays because it's usually followed by a battle-winner which you would want to negate more then that card.
I used precisely the example that I did because it contained multiple elements of all the reasons that play abilities are CBI - The current one that was brought up was a drawn card - Which is why I didn't even mention the fact that Faith would get kicked under your proposed ruling.
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Thats not what I'm saying, I'm questioning why play abilities are CBI which means in your example, Faith would get kicked back to hand (if you negated it) and my arguement would be treat is as if it was never played.
Indirect negation is a common thing, and would be the result if Play wasn't CBI. Indirect negation would go around CBN because you are treating the card as if it was never played in the first place and thus circumvents CBN.
Thats not what I'm saying, I'm questioning why play abilities are CBI which means in your example, Faith would get kicked back to hand (if you negated it) and my arguement would be treat is as if it was never played. Simple solution, and besides not many cards that are commonly played can negate any of the Draw/Plays because it's usually followed by a battle-winner which you would want to negate more then that card.
I used precisely the example that I did because it contained multiple elements of all the reasons that play abilities are CBI - The current one that was brought up was a drawn card - Which is why I didn't even mention the fact that Faith would get kicked under your proposed ruling.
You can't indirectly negate something that cannot be negated. CBN means it cannot be negated, no way, no how.
You still didn't even mention how Faith isn't inadvertently negated when it's kicked to hand and in so doing also negates He is Risen because its no longer CBN.
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You still didn't even mention how Faith isn't inadvertently negated when it's kicked to hand and in so doing also negates He is Risen because its no longer CBN.
You can't indirectly negate something that cannot be negated. CBN means it cannot be negated, no way, no how.
Your question was answered, if you read Drrek's post above. And in fact, it is one of the 10 Commandments of Redemption (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/the-ten-commandments-of-redemption/).
Once a CBN card hits, you cannot stop it. No way, no how. "That puppy sticks". So in RDT's example, Faith still hits and its ability and each enhancement you decide to play afterwards is CBN. But abilities cannot be CBN after the fact, so Words can be negated. TSA hits battle, negates the play, and throws your enhancements back to rinse and repeat each turn.
RDT - can you give some answers to the following post and the thread I linked to so that we can figure out exactly what happens with draw and play, and if cards can ever be 'unplayed' by negating them? We need something definitive, mostly because of the kind of example you just posted as to why you cards cannot be unplayed.
Can you help to resolve the question of what happens to a card that is played that was drawn by a "DX-Play" card. Can it be "unplayed" by negating the draw?
Can you help to resolve the question of what happens to a card that is played without a Play SA, but was drawn by an ability. Can it be "unplayed" by negating the draw?
I ask because of this thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/can%27t-be-negated/), and all the research I've done shows that there was to be a discussion on the Elder side...and I can't find anything after that using Google searches. Please advise how these are played. by negating the Play, and then play it again to get double the bang for one card?
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You didn't read what I said, it's inadvertently negated because you are treating it as if it was never played. So even if it is CBN, it no longer affects the battle because it was never 'played'
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You didn't read what I said, it's inadvertently negated because you are treating it as if it was never played. So even if it is CBN, it no longer affects the battle because it was never 'played'
No, obviously you did not read what I, another REP, an Elder, the game rules, and The Ten Commandments of Redemption all said. That's an awful lot to ignore. Impressive.
What part of "No way, no how" did not get through? Once played, CBN cards can never be undone. NEVER. Period. No way. No how.
That. Is. The. Rule.
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If a card was never played (or treated as never played) it can never affect the field.
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There is an established rule that myself, RDT, and Redoubter have explained and is not going to change. I'm sorry you don't agree with it, but the rule is clear.
As the original question and follow up questions have been answered, I'm going to lock this thread.