Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BubbleBoy on February 22, 2010, 02:02:30 PM
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Alright, so I have an artifact in my Tabernacle (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/thetabernacle.htm) and I make a rescue attempt with Eleazar, son of Aaron (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/eleazarsonofaaron.htm). I deactivate my tabernacle'd artifact and activate The Silver Trumpets (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/thesilvertrumpets.htm). I then have initiative, so I band in a FbtN character (let's say Moses (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/moses.htm)). Moses would then negate Eleazar's SA, thus negating the artifact, etc., making an infinite loop, right? (Naughty Moses, always interfering with the priests' rituals.) What is the outcome of this?
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This loop happens every time that FBTN charachters are banded into battle. Basically any time a FBTN charachter is banded into battle, the SA that banded him into battle is usually negated thus putting him back in terriory, which allows the enhancement or SA to activate again that bands him back into battle, which Kicks him out.....
The way it was settled is that when you band in a FNTN charachter, it makes the battle FBTN but kicks the FBTN Charachter back to territory permanently.
In this instance, you would have a teal hero in a FBTN situation and that is how it would resolve.
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Hey,
It does not create an infinite loop because Moses cannot indirectly negate himself. So the original artifact would be active, The Silver Trumpets would not be used, the Elezazar would be in battle, Moses would be in your territory and it would be a by the numbers battle.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So does FBTN always stick? Or just when the FBTN character is the one negating his being banded in? I was about to post and say that it would result how Tim said because FBTN sticks, but then I realized that might be the wrong reasoning. Here's an example:
RA Jake+Captain. Blocked by TFG. Captain is kicked out, but is it FBTN still, or not?
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I don't believe it is, prof.
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I always thought that once a battle was tainted by FBN, it stayed FBN. Why would FBN stick to the battle in every other scenario and not this one? His band was negated, regardless of of who negated it, so it should resolve like a normal negated band.
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I don't believe it is, prof.
it is. they didn't negate the FBTN ability, they negated the band. the SA still took effect.
this is an awesome combo. 8/9 BTN teal... sweet.
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It does not create an infinite loop because Moses cannot indirectly negate himself.
Oh, right, because Eleazar is permanently negated for the battle. I wasn't thinking about that. I understand now.
I have a new question though: If your opponent uses a (interruptable) battle winner against you, can you use Silver Trumpets to band in a FbtN character in order to negate it? I always assumed you could not do this because the artifact doesn't say "interrupt the battle..." for the banding portion but according to the way we treat negate enhancements regarding "special initiative," I'm not absolutely sure.
If not, then can you play Jordan Interrupted and then band in a FbtN character, even if you don't play an enhancement? It does say "interrupt the battle"...
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No. JI would need to resolve before you could activate Silver Trumpets. Once JI resolves (i.e. the next enhancement is played and resolves), the battle is no longer being interrupted.
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
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It's the same way as if Jacob/Captain go against KoT, right? KoT's FBTN stops Captain's band making it Jacob vs. KoT, FBTN...I think...
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no, cap negates kot's special ability.
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no, cap negates kot's special ability.
Correct. FBTN is negatable, but only by a CBN negate, such as 12FG, or Bringing Fear.
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right, had a brain fart, forgot 12FG was CBN.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
This is the same situation as playing Benaiah Snatches a Spear to negate Foolish Advice. Just to clarify myself--FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be negated (directly-->BSaS/FA or indirectly-->12FG negates the band of Jacob to Capt.) by another card
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so, if Maharai bands to Claudia who bands to ET, and then they play Words, Book of Hozai, Book of Jasher, and Reach, and then you block with 12FG, they have to put all the cards back?
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No. The ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted, even indirectly. So since the enhancements were still able to be played, and they weren't directly negated, then you keep the cards. The battle would continue with Maharai and Words vs. TFG.
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When was this decided? I have never heard of FBTN battle not being a FBTN battle?
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
Example: You make an RA with a red hero that bands to a green hero. Opponent blocks and you play a green enhancement that does X affect. Opponent negates the red hero's ability. In this case, because the ability that brought the green hero into battle was negated, the green enhancement is negated too.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.
It is. If the green hero never came into battle, the green enhancement never could have been played. Therefore, the ehn is negated.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.
It is. If the green hero never came into battle, the green enhancement never could have been played. Therefore, the ehn is negated.
how is this any different then Mahari (WA) to Ira (WA)
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.
It is. If the green hero never came into battle, the green enhancement never could have been played. Therefore, the ehn is negated.
how is this any different then Mahari (WA) to Ira (WA)
In that example, since the WA Maharai is not WC, the end result is Maharai in battle, Ira in territory, and the battle is FTBN-nonWC. The loop rule applies here, but I don't see how it is related my example.
If Ira had a weapon-class ehn, then the weapon would be negated even though it is WC because it was negated by negating Maharai's banding ability.
Maharai
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 6 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: May band with any Hero in the blue brigade. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: I Chronicles 27:13 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Uncommon)
Ira
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate all special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: II Samuel 20:26 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare) • Background
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* Mega Quote Removed: Mega quotes are not cool. Please quote pertinent information only.*
mega quote FTW.
A. I said Ira (WA).
B. I guess the loop rule is why it's that way.
and getting back to your example... C. an instant ability that was not negated should still take effect.
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A. Oops, sorry. My example with the weapon doesn't work, but the rest is still the same.
C. On my example with the red and green heroes, negates cascade. Therefore, if the ability that allowed a card to be played is negated, the card is negated as well. Another example is Coat of Many Colors. If I negate Coat, it negates everything you gained the ability to play.
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C. On my example with the red and green heroes, negates cascade. Therefore, if the ability that allowed a card to be played is negated, the card is negated as well. Another example is Coat of Many Colors. If I negate Coat, it negates everything you gained the ability to play.
Indeed CtC is correct. For your viewing pleasure, let's welcome commandment number 5:
#5 - Negates Cascade; Any Cards That Take Effect as the Result of a Negated Card, are Also Negated
Use Coat, play an off-color Enhancement, negate Coat, the Enhancement fizzles also.
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No. JI would need to resolve before you could activate Silver Trumpets. Once JI resolves (i.e. the next enhancement is played and resolves), the battle is no longer being interrupted.
But JI gives your Priest initiative, which is all Silver Trumpets needs to use its effect, so why couldn't you use it?
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No. JI would need to resolve before you could activate Silver Trumpets. Once JI resolves (i.e. the next enhancement is played and resolves), the battle is no longer being interrupted.
But JI gives your Priest initiative, which is all Silver Trumpets needs to use its effect, so why couldn't you use it?
All abilities must finish before triggered abilities or doms can be played. Unwritten commandment #11
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No. The ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted, even indirectly. So since the enhancements were still able to be played, and they weren't directly negated, then you keep the cards. The battle would continue with Maharai and Words vs. TFG.
I understand that you cannot negate the ability to play the next enhancement (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/defaultconditions241.htm) on Ethopian Treasurer (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/ethiopiantreasurer.htm), but you can negate the ability ON the card you play as a result. Hence, you negate the ability to draw a card. I believe the cards you drew all go back to the deck in the order they were drawn. Right?
Mike
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:giveup: I am beginning to understand now, sometimes the twists and turns of this games logic causes me severe headaches. I am going to go fishing with STAMP, much more relaxing.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
I just realized that if this is this case, my original scenario does create an infinite loop. However, the rule is that in cases like this, FbtN sticks?
BTW, I am now beginning to question everything I thought I knew about Redemption. :P
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
• The “cascading negate” in a banding situation only applies if the “play by the numbers” character negates the banding. The “cascading negate” does not apply if another character negates the banding (e.g., The Twelve-Fingered Giant). (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/specialconditions17.htm)
Mike
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No. The ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted, even indirectly. So since the enhancements were still able to be played, and they weren't directly negated, then you keep the cards. The battle would continue with Maharai and Words vs. TFG.
I understand that you cannot negate the ability to play the next enhancement (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/defaultconditions241.htm) on Ethopian Treasurer (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/ethiopiantreasurer.htm), but you can negate the ability ON the card you play as a result. Hence, you negate the ability to draw a card. I believe the cards you drew all go back to the deck in the order they were drawn. Right?
Mike
Not unless the enhancement was negated. The question at hand was referring to a situation like the following: Maharai bands to Claudia bands to ET. Player plays four draw cards. Opponent blocks with a character who negates banding (say TFG). Now, the banding was negated, so it's as if Claudia and ET were never in battle, except for the fact that ET's play next ability (and the play next abilities of the enhancements) cannot be interrupted. The only thing that can negate a special ability is either:
a) Make it so the special ability could have never taken place, i.e., indirectly negate it, or
b) Play a card that negates the special ability of that specific card or in some cases all cards (like King of Tyrus)
Since you can't interrupt the ability for ET to play the draw cards (i.e. can't perform case a), and you didn't negate the draw directly (i.e. didn't perform case b) then the drawing stays.
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Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.
This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
+1. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
+1 I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
I just realized that if this is this case, my original scenario does create an infinite loop. However, the rule is that in cases like this, FbtN sticks?
BTW, I am now beginning to question everything I thought I knew about Redemption. :P
me too. things in the identifier line are negated? FBTN negated without being negated? 5 lost souls still wins the game, right?
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5 lost souls still wins the game, right?
Unfortunately, yes. At least in T1...
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5 lost souls still wins the game, right?
Unfortunately, yes. At least in T1...
Though we are currently finding a way to use buckler to make it to 42.
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Not unless the enhancement was negated.
I see. You are correct. I didn't read carefully that you were only negating banding. I was basing my response on negate all.
Mike
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Alright, I have another question and need to resurrect this thread. First of all, I recall a thread recently where I leared something startling and would just like to confirm it: If I band a hero into battle, and then the banding is negated, does the banded hero's ability fizzle (even if the banded hero is CBN)? I remember the answer being yes, and if so, then would the principle of fizzling something when the ability that activated it is negated apply to abilities other than banding?
If this is also true, then what if I have Lampstand active in my Tabernacle, then RA with Eleazar and deactivate it, then my opponent plays, say, FA, and then later Eleazar's ability is negated...what happens?
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Can CBN abilities be indirectly negated?
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I never thought so...
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You can't that I am aware of. Once a CBN card hits the table, it sticks. You would have to clarify the example you were referring to. You had mentioned a CBN banding hero having the band negated. That is not possible (i.e. if I RA with Elders of Jerusalem banded to Elders of Jerusalem, then you block with 12FG, my band is not negated).
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CBN = CBN. Period
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You had mentioned a CBN banding hero having the band negated. That is not possible.
No, I mentioned a CBN banded hero fizzling if the band is negated.
I guess after learning that Jacob + Captain + TFG = no FbtN, I'm just questioning the whole system. Does "fizzling" take priority over CBN? I just don't know if I know anything at all. :P
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You had mentioned a CBN banding hero having the band negated. That is not possible.
No, I mentioned a CBN banded hero fizzling if the band is negated.
I guess after learning that Jacob + Captain + TFG = no FbtN, I'm just questioning the whole system. Does "fizzling" take priority over CBN?
No. CBN abilities cannot "fizzle". If Captain said: "Negate all SA's except banding. Cannot be negated" then the battle would remain FBTN even if he was kicked out by TFG. But Captain doesn't say CBN. So his ability is fizzleable.