Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheHobbit13 on April 29, 2016, 01:48:30 PM
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Does Broken Covenant imply that you shuffle your deck if you want to discard a random card? Or are the cards in the deck considered random already?
At the beginning of the game they are about as random as they will ever be yes, but I think its a little odd to assume that all cards in deck will always be random because there are many cards that let you know what the top and bottom cards are... so I am not sure.
Also, I am confused about casting stones. 1) Do you get special initiative and can you negate casting stones if you are discarded by a tossed enhancement? I wasn't sure because Casting Stones isn't directly removing you from battle and tossed enhancements are not played. 2) the enhancements you toss have to match the at least one of the brigades of evil characters in battle, correct?
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There is going to be an REG entry that explains how "random" discards are handled--we are currently working on the best wording but it will essentially mean that a location is always shuffled before a random discard.
I'm not 100% positive but I don't think you can negate a tossed enhancement.
Yes, the tossed enhancement much match a brigade of an EC in battle.
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Strictly speaking, even you could negate a tossed enhancement, I don't think it would do any good, since you're not activating SA or numbers. Discarding a tossed enhancement is another question.
But that wasn't his question - he asked about negating Casting Stones, not the tossed enhancements. It's also a unique situation, since it tosses enhancements without forcing the opponent to do the same.
Do tossed enhancements count as the last enhancement played? That could interfere with attempting to negate Casting Stones if it causes special initiative.
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Do tossed enhancements count as the last enhancement played? That could interfere with attempting to negate Casting Stones if it causes special initiative.
That's not even the biggest question, the biggest question is what do you have to interrupt to negate it. Is Casting Stones causing Special Initiative or is one of the Tossed cards, because if Casting Stones is, then you could just interrupt or negate it with a card like Bravery of David and move on with life, but if it's the tossed card you'd have to interrupt the battle, since an ability is causing you to be removed from battle (well technically reduced to 0 toughness, but that works for SI too). At least that's the way I'd see it, Toss is a weird ability so it could have special rules that haven't been necessary yet.
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I'm not 100% positive but I don't think you can negate a tossed enhancement.
Yes, I would agree if you are talking about direct negation. But here I am more asking about indirect negation and special initiative.
Say their are two heroes in battle and one is discarded by the tossed enhancement. You agree that you could speech casting stones and undo it right, meaning the tossed enhancement would go back and the hero would be back in battle from discard, yes?
What about in the case when there is one hero in battle, and he is discarded by the tossed enhancement are you able to play a negate from hand to negate Casting Stones. I am thinking yes you can negate it during special initiative but not currently, because during special initiative you have to negate the card that removed you and in this case the card removing you is the tossed enhancement which is not able to be negated with any conventional negate as it is not played or in play.
This also leads me to another question that I had never really realized about a toss battle. If toss enhancements are not played then tossed battles have to function a bit different right? The evil character would not be able to toss the hero past the point of mutual destruction like normal but whenever the hero gets initiative he will always have initiative if he wants it because the evil character is always the last card played.
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Hypothetically, if a card said "you may discard an enhancement from hand to decrease a character in battle by X/X", where X was the strength of discarded enhancement, it would be the original card that was causing the decrease, not the discarded one. So I'd think it's the tossing card, not the tossed card, that causes the decrease, and therefore the Special Initiative. This just hasn't come up before because the other toss cards are 1) CBI and 2) effect all enhancements in the battle.
What happens if Peace is Gam's Speech'd mid-toss battle (for the discard, not negate)? Removing Peace should end the toss ability, since it's reliant on the place, making the remainder of the battle a normal battle.
This also leads me to another question that I had never really realized about a toss battle. If toss enhancements are not played then tossed battles have to function a bit different right? The evil character would not be able to toss the hero past the point of mutual destruction like normal but whenever the hero gets initiative he will always have initiative if he wants it because the evil character is always the last card played.
It would still be hard to maintain the initiative though, since you're decreasing both stats. It's not like toss MD gives the hero infinite init. But it does go back to my question about whether tossed enhancements count as the last card played.
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If we are going by how toss has been played, and likely was intended to be played as, the tossed enhancements are played. If they aren't, it would go against the way that it is played currently, as described by the situation regarding mutual destruction. I think it would actually make more sense if they weren't played, since the toss ability seems to be the one actually doing the decreasing.
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's special ability, or a game rule
that has been triggered by an opponent's special ability, would leave that player with no character
in battle when the special ability has completed, they have Special Initiative.
With this description of when SI is triggered, the removal is caused by the card with the toss ability, since it is a special ability that allows either player to discard enhancements to decrease. Thus, when SI is triggered, the opposing player would be able to target the card with the toss ability with a negate or interrupt, giving it isn't CBN or CBI. Negating it would cause all of the tossed enhancements to be returned to hand and stats to be restored.
However, if the decrease isn't coming from the card with the toss ability, but rather that the toss ability "unlocks" some other way of playing an enhancement, the enhancement is being played and is the thing doing the decreasing. If this is the case, for SI, it can't be targeted by negate/interrupt, since by the REG definition of negate, negate abilities target the SAs of the cards. But for toss, the SAs on the tossed cards never were activated, and thus never really were around to be negated. Again, by the definition of SI, the opponent can only play an enhancement that can negate or interrupt the card causing removal, which they can't do since they can't target the tossed card.
I could be totally wrong. These are just my musings around dealing with negatable toss abilities.
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However, if the decrease isn't coming from the card with the toss ability, but rather that the toss ability "unlocks" some other way of playing an enhancement, the enhancement is being played and is the thing doing the decreasing. If this is the case, for SI, it can't be targeted by negate/interrupt, since by the REG definition of negate, negate abilities target the SAs of the cards. But for toss, the SAs on the tossed cards never were activated, and thus never really were around to be negated. Again, by the definition of SI, the opponent can only play an enhancement that can negate or interrupt the card causing removal, which they can't do since they can't target the tossed card.
If this is correct you could possibly use Interrupt the Battle, because it generally interrupts things causing removal, not just specific cards. At least that would be my interpretation of Toss at this moment.
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this kind of makes me feel like basically all toss cards need to be cbi to really work effectively
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It seems like toss is confusing to a lot of people, even experienced players. Maybe it's because it's a confusing ability? Maybe it's because it's fairly new and hasn't been used a lot?
I found this in the REG:
How to Play
A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the numbers or special abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement), regardless of protection or immunity.
Default Conditions
● Enhancements discarded to the toss ability are played from hand.
Twice the REG says that a tossed Enhancement is played. But since it was never in play and it's special ability was never activated, can it still be targeted by a "negate and discard last"?
As someone mentioned previously, and the REG entry for both interrupt and negate clarify, they can only target special abilities, so I don't think they will target the tossed card.
Since it is the toss ability that is causing the decrease that removes the character, I believe you should be able to target the toss card during special initiative. You can use a negate, or an interrupt the battle if the toss ability was activated in battle (since toss is an ongoing ability).
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yeah i think that's why it being cbi on the printed toss cards makes perfect sense.. because then it really is a toss battle rather than waste a bunch of rounds then they negate the toss
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I always understood that "Tossed" was a condition of a card that is determined when played and cannot be altered. The easy parallel is CBI/P/N, when a card is played, what it has of those states is determined and then can't change. This happens de facto because things that grant CBI/P/N are inherently CBN, but even when you could for example negate a card that grants CBP, cards that were played CBP before it was negated remain so. Also similar is how you can't negate the playing of a card, which is what you'd be trying to do to negate a toss.
tl;dr, I understand "Toss" to be intrinsically CBI because it changes the way a card is played, its state, and whatever ability granting the toss is not itself causing the decrease.
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Your understanding off toss is quite different than what the REG says about it.
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I don't think so. It's just a different interpretation.
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I guess I didn't think tossed cards where played because they can't receive name-on-name bonus. Also the default conditions don't necessarily follow from the definition, because usually played implies that you activate the ability; its not terribly easy to remember and even more difficult when you never knew it ;)
I like Polarius' interpretation of it though haha. It's really not a terribly powerful card with CBI. You have pretty much have to play it against a single hero, be playing with strong enhancements, and you burn at least two enhancements to win the battle (CS and the tossed enhancement). Without CBI its really not worth a deck slot oh well, toss wasn't set up that way to begin with.
Since it is the toss ability that is causing the decrease that removes the character, I believe you should be able to target the toss card during special initiative. You can use a negate, or an interrupt the battle if the toss ability was activated in battle (since toss is an ongoing ability).
I'm not sure about that. That's like saying a card that says negate an evil enhancement is ongoing because on a BTN hero it says negate and negate is ongoing on a BTN hero. Honestly, the toss on Casting Stones looks to me like it tosses the enhancement(s) it wants to and stops.
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I'm not sure about that. That's like saying a card that says negate an evil enhancement is ongoing because on a BTN hero it says negate and negate is ongoing on a BTN hero.
A toss ability is ongoing.
Toss is, indeed, ongoing; it is waiting for a target and then acts upon them as they are available. For Casting Stones, that ongoing component has a specific end point (because it only acts on the revealed cards); for Peace the ongoing component acts throughout the battle so long as the condition is met.
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All toss abilities where on ongoing, so the How to Play makes sense. That's the only possible way you could play toss. It's the default and was clearly worded on every toss card. Now there's a toss ability that is not ongoing because it has an endpoint, but don't worry it's still ongoing? I thought abilities trump game rules.
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All toss abilities where on ongoing, so the How to Play makes sense. That's the only possible way you could play toss. It's the default and was clearly worded on every toss card. Now there's a toss ability that is not ongoing because it has an endpoint, but don't worry it's still ongoing? I thought abilities trump game rules.
I don't follow you at all here. Toss is ongoing, and all ongoing abilities have an end point. The end point here is when the reveal ends. How is that different from any other ongoing effect? It just has a different end point than "end of phase" and this is all covered in the REG.
Ongoing abilities are abilities that have an ongoing effect on the game or specific cards. They are
not completed until their specified duration has ended or the phase in which they are used has
ended, whichever comes later. They are distinguished from Instant Abilities, which have an instant
effect on the game or specific cards, and then complete when that effect takes place.
An ongoing ability, depending on the targeting of the particular ability, updates its targets while it
remains ongoing. If an ongoing ability is prevented from activating, but the ability that stopped it
from activating is later negated, then the ongoing ability activates and updates targets at that
moment.
An ongoing ability that persists through multiple phases can be interrupted or negatedin each
phase in which it is active. If the negation ends with the phase, and the ongoing ability persists to
the next phase, then it will reactivate at that time. Effects of an ongoing ability in a prior phase
cannot be interrupted or negated, only the effects in the current phase
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Slice it how you want to dice it but if the ongoing part ends at the point when the reveal does, it's ability is not occurring by the time you get to special initiative. In which case you could not play an ITB card.
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Slice it how you want to dice it but if the ongoing part ends at the point when the reveal does, it's ability is not occurring by the time you get to special initiative. In which case you could not play an ITB card.
Special Initiative pauses the game at the moment your last character would be removed. But regardless, ItB interrupts the source of the ability removing your character(s) so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at there either.
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Interrupt the battle interrupts the last card played and ongoing abilities, which is often the source yes, but the last card played was the last tossed enhancement apparently.
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Interrupt the battle interrupts the last card played and ongoing abilities, which is often the source yes, but the last card played was the last tossed enhancement apparently.
The phrase “interrupt the battle” includes interrupting the following:
● all active ongoing abilities
● abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
● the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent.
Interrupt the battle only includes such abilities if they were activated on cards in the current battle.
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Does negating a negatable toss card undo the decrease from tossed cards? From what I understand, toss abilities just change the way that cards are played, it isn't actually causing the play itself. Would negating the toss just make them be played normally(or something else), or is it actually the source of the playing of the tossed enhancements?
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I guess the thing about toss I'm missing is if "all enhancements in battle are to be tossed," then even with SI how can something be negated when that card itself is supposed to be tossed instead. So say you can play a negate with SI during a toss battle. Does it target the last card tossed increasing you some or the toss enhancement since it is the last enhancement in battle?
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I guess the thing about toss I'm missing is if "all enhancements in battle are to be tossed," then even with SI how can something be negated when that card itself is supposed to be tossed instead. So say you can play a negate with SI during a toss battle. Does it target the last card tossed increasing you some or the toss enhancement since it is the last enhancement in battle?
They are referring specifically to the new card Casting Stones, not to any other cbi toss ability currently in printed cards. Casting Stones is not cbi so the question is if the last opposing character was decreased by toss to or passed /0 if they gained special initiative to interrupt or negate the actual card being the source of being able to cause toss decrease (not the actual tossed enhancements), which has been ruled yes, they do.
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Interrupt the battle interrupts the last card played and ongoing abilities, which is often the source yes, but the last card played was the last tossed enhancement apparently.
The phrase “interrupt the battle” includes interrupting the following:
● all active ongoing abilities
● abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
● the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent.
Interrupt the battle only includes such abilities if they were activated on cards in the current battle.
Ok that's fair, I always forget that they changed it a few years back. From the way the second bullet reads, it seems like you can reach-aocp in SI an evil character in someones territory who just used magic charms to capture you or reach after someone has writ-ed you. Is the second bullet point understood to mean "abilities in battle that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle"?
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Ok that's fair, I always forget that they changed it a few years back. From the way the second bullet reads, it seems like you can reach-aocp in SI an evil character in someones territory who just used magic charms to capture you or reach after someone has writ-ed you. Is the second bullet point understood to mean "abilities in battle that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle"?
I think the last sentence of the very section you're referencing answers your question. If it's not clear, please let me know and maybe we can make it clearer in the next REG update.
The phrase “interrupt the battle” includes interrupting the following:
● all active ongoing abilities
● abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
● the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent.
Interrupt the battle only includes such abilities if they were activated on cards in the current battle.
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Clear as rain!
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How to Play
A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the numbers or special abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement), regardless of protection or immunity.
Default Conditions
● Enhancements discarded to the toss ability are played from hand.
If the REG says that Tossed enhancements are Played like any other Play ability (Reach of Desperation, Two Thousand Horses, Hidden Treasures, etc.), then Tossing cannot be undone, because Play abilities are inherently CBI.
In other words, the Play aspect of Casting Stones' Toss ability is inherently CBI, because even if you use an Interrupt The Battle or Negate ability and target Casting Stones, the Tossed enhancements were Played, and CBI is CBI.
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The real question is, is the Decrease aspect of Casting Stones' Toss ability inherently CBI? In other words, does Negating the Toss negate the decrease? I think that it should.
I would equate it to playing Foolish Advice after your opponent plays Reach of Desperation --> battlewinner. Foolish Advice doesn't negate Reach's "Play" ability, so MLaMG stays in battle; however, MLaMG's discard still gets negated by Foolish Advice.
Therefore, negating Casting Stones won't do anything about the Reveal, and the enhancements will stay discarded; but the decrease will still be undone. I think this is the best interpretation giving the current rules, and also keeps Casting Stones from being a CBI battlewinner that thins your deck up to 3 cards.
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I don't think toss is a play ability. It allows you to play a card, but so does exchange, and exchange isn't a play ability. I don't think it is inherently CBI like standard play abilities.
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Since this topic kind of died, I wanted to confirm what the conclusion is.
1. Can Casting Stones be targeted in SI if the Tossed EEs cause SI? The answer appears to be "Yes".
2. If the answer to 1 is "Yes", what happens when Casting Stones is negated/interrupted - is the Decrease undone and the Tossed EEs returned to deck, or is just the Decrease undone? If the Tossed EEs are returned to deck, then the REG definition that says Tossed enhancements are "Played" needs reworked, IMO.