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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on July 11, 2011, 01:48:50 PM
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I know they can't be redeemed anymore (which I agree with btw), but are they any sort of known card type?
For example, are they a lost soul that Exchanger/Wanderer can be used on?
Are they a captured EC (assuming there were cards that affect captured ECs)?
Can they be placed in a site (not sure why I'd want to do this)?
Are they shuffled in as demons again after A New Beginning?
I'm sure there's more scenarios I should be asking about right now, but hopefully you get the point. Thanks for your help.
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I know they can't be redeemed anymore (which I agree with btw), but are they any sort of known card type?
For example, are they a lost soul that Exchanger/Wanderer can be used on?
Are they a captured EC (assuming there were cards that affect captured ECs)?
Can they be placed in a site (not sure why I'd want to do this)?
Are they shuffled in as demons again after A New Beginning?
I'm sure there's more scenarios I should be asking about right now, but hopefully you get the point. Thanks for your help.
As far as I know (I'm not entirely clear on all of these myself, but maybe some other elder could corroborate):
-They are NOT Lost Souls. This I know for sure. So they cannot be targeted as Lost Souls, nor do they count for LS's for conditions (e.g. Harvest Time's condition). The only thing they have in common with Lost Souls is that they are by default in the Land of Bondage (at least I think so, based on Tartaros' wording).
-They ARE captured EC's/captured characters/captured demons (I'm fairly certain of this one). So they can be targeted by any card that targets one of those three card types. I don't know how many currently exist, but I can think of at least one that will soon exist...
-They CANNOT be placed in a site (unless a special abilty would allow you to, which currently I don't believe is possible). Only Lost Souls can be placed in sites, except by outside special abilties. This I am fairly sure of.
-They DO reset to being demon evil characters when a card like ANB shuffles them into deck. This I know for sure.
Things I am not certain of:
Whether or not they count as evil cards or neutral cards.
Whether or not they count as demons, or just captured demons.
Like I said, hopefully an elder who knows more about the situation can corroborate.
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They are captured demons.
- No, they are not lost souls
- Yes
- No
- Yes
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I know they can't be redeemed anymore (which I agree with btw), but are they any sort of known card type?
For example, are they a lost soul that Exchanger/Wanderer can be used on?
Are they a captured EC (assuming there were cards that affect captured ECs)?
Can they be placed in a site (not sure why I'd want to do this)?
Are they shuffled in as demons again after A New Beginning?
I'm sure there's more scenarios I should be asking about right now, but hopefully you get the point. Thanks for your help.
As far as I know (I'm not entirely clear on all of these myself, but maybe some other elder could corroborate):
-They are NOT Lost Souls. This I know for sure. So they cannot be targeted as Lost Souls, nor do they count for LS's for conditions (e.g. Harvest Time's condition). The only thing they have in common with Lost Souls is that they are by default in the Land of Bondage (at least I think so, based on Tartaros' wording).
-They ARE captured EC's/captured characters/captured demons (I'm fairly certain of this one). So they can be targeted by any card that targets one of those three card types. I don't know how many currently exist, but I can think of at least one that will soon exist...
-They CANNOT be placed in a site (unless a special abilty would allow you to, which currently I don't believe is possible). Only Lost Souls can be placed in sites, except by outside special abilties. This I am fairly sure of.
-They DO reset to being demon evil characters when a card like ANB shuffles them into deck. This I know for sure.
Things I am not certain of:
Whether or not they count as evil cards or neutral cards.
Whether or not they count as demons, or just captured demons.
Like I said, hopefully an elder who knows more about the situation can corroborate.
I am sure they cannot be targeted as demons. I am not sure whether they satisfy triggers as demons. I am somewhat sure they retain their alignment as evil. Finally, I am sure I will be ignored. ;)
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-They ARE captured EC's/captured characters/captured demons (I'm fairly certain of this one). So they can be targeted by any card that targets one of those three card types. I don't know how many currently exist, but I can think of at least one that will soon exist...
Worse than the first.
STAMP is too good at reverse psychology... do you have a BA in it?
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As far as I know (I'm not entirely clear on all of these myself, but maybe some other elder could corroborate):
-They are NOT Lost Souls.
-They ARE captured EC's/captured characters/captured demons
-They CANNOT be placed in a site
-They DO reset to being demon evil characters when a card like ANB shuffles them into deck.
Things I am not certain of:
Whether or not they count as evil cards or neutral cards.
Whether or not they count as demons, or just captured demons.
I agree with all 4 things that the "other Prof" knows. And I will add that they do NOT count as demons, but only "captured demons" when it comes to targeting (ie. "discard a demon"). However, they do count as demons for cards that "look" for that sort of thing (ie. "if a demon is in play").
As for whether they are evil or neutral cards, I too am unsure. However, I would lean toward neutral.
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A related-but-not question i was wondering... Do captured characters keep their brigade? I understand that they become neutral, but for example does a captured Moses become a neutral Gold card? Also, do they keep identifiers? So like would captured moses still count as a human, prophet, judge, prince, etcetcetc NT female angel?
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Worse than the first.
That specifies demons in a Land of Bondage (though, it does have to be YOUR LoB because that's the only way it's your demon) which is effectively saying captured demon. It's like when a card targets a Hero in a site or Raider's Camp--it really means captured Hero.
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A related-but-not question i was wondering... Do captured characters keep their brigade? I understand that they become neutral, but for example does a captured Moses become a neutral Gold card?
If I remember correctly, they do NOT keep their brigades.
Also, do they keep identifiers? So like would captured moses still count as a human, prophet, judge, prince, etc. NT female angel?
A captured character still keeps its identifiers for cards that "look" for a specific thing (ie. "if a judge is in play"), but do cannot be targeted by those identifiers (ie. "discard a judge").
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A captured character still keeps its identifiers for cards that "look" for a specific thing (ie. "if a judge is in play"), but do cannot be targeted by those identifiers (ie. "discard a judge").
I find this to be contradictory and confusing. Is this really the way we are ruling it?
So if a hypothetical card said, "If a judge is in play, discard a judge," the captured judge that fits the first part of the ability can not be the judge in the second part?
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A captured character still keeps its identifiers for cards that "look" for a specific thing (ie. "if a judge is in play"), but do cannot be targeted by those identifiers (ie. "discard a judge").
I find this to be contradictory and confusing. Is this really the way we are ruling it?
So if a hypothetical card said, "If a judge is in play, discard a judge," the captured judge that fits the first part of the ability can not be the judge in the second part?
That ruling first came out with Arioch, where a captured prophet would count for the first part, but a captured human wouldn't for the second part. I've never been too clear on why that is, but I know that's the way it's been.
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So if a hypothetical card said, "If a judge is in play, discard a judge," the captured judge that fits the first part of the ability can not be the judge in the second part?
Unfortunately, yes.
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I've never had so much fun stirring up a hornet's nest.
;)
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I've never had so much fun stirring up a hornet's nest.
;)
It is a good thing that you aren't bringing this subject up right before some major tourney. ;)
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I agree that it's an unnecessarily complicated and bad ruling. IIrc, the main reason it was made that way was to make Arioch less powerful, which is always a bad reason for making a ruling.
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That ruling first came out with Arioch, where a captured prophet would count for the first part, but a captured human wouldn't for the second part. I've never been too clear on why that is, but I know that's the way it's been.
So a captured character keeps identifiers only when your not targeting them?!
I really don't understand how this can be.. :o
:Insert Migraine:
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Is there any way of revisiting this ruling, even if it means making Arioch more powerful?
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I've been advocating that for a while. Either make them lose identifiers or keep them for all purposes, but don't have them lose identifiers for targeting but keep identifiers for conditions.
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I've been advocating that for a while. Either make them lose identifiers or keep them for all purposes, but don't have them lose identifiers for targeting but keep identifiers for conditions.
Oh, in that case I support you fully. Go Polarius!
In light of recent threads, and since everyone treats him like an Elder, I hereby nominate Polarius for Elder, even if it means removing a current Elder.
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I second that nomination, very few people have the experience and knowledge of the game as Polarius. I think he would make a great Elder.
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I'll step down. He can take my place.
;)
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I've been advocating that for a while. Either make them lose identifiers or keep them for all purposes, but don't have them lose identifiers for targeting but keep identifiers for conditions.
Some of us have been advocating that ever since we lost both ends of the Arioch ruling.
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I agree that it's an unnecessarily complicated and bad ruling. IIrc, the main reason it was made that way was to make Arioch less powerful, which is always a bad reason for making a ruling.
Back to my point of arbitrary rulings...
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Inb4 requests to remove the site ruling and re-break herod's dungeon.
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I agree that it's an unnecessarily complicated and bad ruling. IIrc, the main reason it was made that way was to make Arioch less powerful, which is always a bad reason for making a ruling.
Back to my point of arbitrary rulings...
Although I personally agree with the sentiments of Pol's first sentence, his recollection is incorrect. Here's how the argument went...
Someone: Can Arioch discard a captured guy?
Me*: Yes that should work, and let me say that is awesome.
Bryon: No, a captured human is not a human (poke fun of my naivete with horse apples and apples comparison).
Me*: argue, argue, argue
Bryon: lose, lose lose.
Me*: On the bright side, at least a captured Prophet doesn't stop Arioch's SA any longer.
Bryon. Yes, it does. The first part of Arioch's SA is a happen-to-notice ability which is different.
Me*: argue, argue, argue (poke fun of the idea of happen-to-notice abilities)
Bryon: lose, lose, lose
Me: grumble, grumble, grumble
[Two or more years pass.]
Me: Defend Bryon (this post).
I still do not understand why there is a distinction between targeting and happen-to-notice-ing SAs when it comes to captured characters, but the distinction is no more complicated or arbitrary than stating that protect beats CBN. The fact that Arioch got zapped twice was a sad consequence of the two rulings rather than being the point of it.
Me* == me and others, but I was the primary one arguing the pro-Arioch side of both rulings. (The grumbling was mine alone).
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Also, do they keep identifiers? So like would captured moses still count as a human, prophet, judge, prince, etc. NT female angel?
A captured character still keeps its identifiers for cards that "look" for a specific thing (ie. "if a judge is in play"), but do cannot be targeted by those identifiers (ie. "discard a judge").
So a captured Egyptian still triggers Given Over to Egypt and Pithom? Sorry if I'm getting too off-track...
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Do Captured Demons get shuffled when the Shuffler LS is rescued?
Related question: Do captured heroes in Raider's Camp get shuffled when the Shuffler LS is rescued?
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Captured demons are not Lost Souls, so I don't see why they would be shuffled by the Shuffler.
Raiders' Camp has a play as that includes "instead", which may or may not make it an errata in disguise, so I've always thought of RC as insteading the "place in LoB and treat as a LS" part of captures by placing them in RC instead. Therefore I don't think they are LSs and they wouldn't be shuffled by the Shuffler. I don't really have any basis for this theory, though, so feel free to disprove me. :P Prof Underwood said it way better than I did.
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Do Captured Demons get shuffled when the Shuffler LS is rescued?
My first guess is "no". But I'm not totally sure on that.
Related question: Do captured heroes in Raider's Camp get shuffled when the Shuffler LS is rescued?
No. Raider's Camp specifies how cards enter AND how cards exit that fortress. Therefore, they can't enter or leave any other way.
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Do the contents of Demonic Stronghold get shuffled when the shuffler is rescued?
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They are Captured Heroes in there, not Lost Souls.
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No. Raider's Camp specifies how cards enter AND how cards exit that fortress. Therefore, they can't enter or leave any other way.
??? So Covenant of Palestine doesn't get captured heroes out of Raider's Camp, either?
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They are Captured Heroes in there, not Lost Souls.
What difference does it make where they are? Are you suggesting that a captured hero in a fortress cannot be shuffled by the Shuffler, but a captured hero outside of a fortress can?
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No. Raider's Camp specifies how cards enter AND how cards exit that fortress. Therefore, they can't enter or leave any other way.
??? So Covenant of Palestine doesn't get captured heroes out of Raider's Camp, either?
Good point. I'm still getting used to the rule about cards entering and exiting fortresses myself. I suppose that it might only limit people's ability to add or remove them at will (ie. during prep phase), and not limit other card's interactions with those cards on the fortress.
For instance, I could play CM on a hero held in a fortress that doesn't protect heroes, and that would send them to the discard pile (removing them from the fortress). And I could play ANB causing the cards in the fortress to shuffle into the deck (removing them from the fortress). So why wouldn't Covenant of Palestine remove them from the fortress? And why wouldn't the shuffler remove them from the fortress?
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No. Raider's Camp specifies how cards enter AND how cards exit that fortress. Therefore, they can't enter or leave any other way.
??? So Covenant of Palestine doesn't get captured heroes out of Raider's Camp, either?
Good point. I'm still getting used to the rule about cards entering and exiting fortresses myself. I suppose that it might only limit people's ability to add or remove them at will (ie. during prep phase), and not limit other card's interactions with those cards on the fortress.
For instance, I could play CM on a hero held in a fortress that doesn't protect heroes, and that would send them to the discard pile (removing them from the fortress). And I could play ANB causing the cards in the fortress to shuffle into the deck (removing them from the fortress). So why wouldn't Covenant of Palestine remove them from the fortress? And why wouldn't the shuffler remove them from the fortress?
I think Lambo is right for the case of DS though, it holds captured heroes not lost souls. I could see Cov of Palestine removing them though.
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They are Captured Heroes in there, not Lost Souls.
What difference does it make where they are? Are you suggesting that a captured hero in a fortress cannot be shuffled by the Shuffler, but a captured hero outside of a fortress can?
Yes, because Demonic Stronghold is not put in your Land of Bondage, which is where they are treated as Lost Souls. Also, from the REG:
Captured characters placed in a fortress are not treated as Lost Souls because they are not in the Land of Bondage nor are they treated as regular characters. Rather, they are treated as captured characters. Captured heroes in a fortress are not subject to any effects that specify Heroes, Evil Characters, or Lost Souls (e.g., Band, Discard or Remove, or rescue). Cards that target all cards, captured Heroes, or captured Evil Characters can effect captured characters in a fortress.
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Targeting versus happen-to-noticing:
CO: Soldier, kill all terrorists on sight.
Soldier: Sir! Yes, sir! Sir, are they the ones wearing desert-style clothing?
CO: Soldier, you will notice many inhabitants of this land wearing desert-style clothing. Kill only those wearing a vest made into a bomb.
Soldier: Sir! Yes, sir! Sir, wouldn't it just be easier to kill all of the inhabitants wearing desert-style clothing, so as to be sure we get the ones hiding bombs underneath?
CO: If it were up to me, I'd have you shoot them all regardless of bombs or not. But the powers-that-be have written the rules for this war.
Soldier: Sir! Yes, sir! Sir, may I use ammunition other than these paper-piercing bullets you gave me??
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Targeting versus happen-to-noticing:
CO: Soldier, kill all terrorists on sight.
Soldier: Sir! Yes, sir! Sir, are they the ones wearing desert-style clothing?
CO: Soldier, you will notice many inhabitants of this land wearing desert-style clothing. Kill only those wearing a vest made into a bomb.
Soldier: Sir! Yes, sir! Sir, wouldn't it just be easier to kill all of the inhabitants wearing desert-style clothing, so as to be sure we get the ones hiding bombs underneath?
CO: If it were up to me, I'd have you shoot them all regardless of bombs or not. But the powers-that-be have written the rules for this war.
Soldier: Sir! Yes, sir! Sir, may I use ammunition other than these paper-piercing bullets you gave me??
But sir... If we kill all the golfers...
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QFT...WYN!
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Yes, because Demonic Stronghold is not put in your Land of Bondage, which is where they are treated as Lost Souls. Also, from the REG:
Captured characters placed in a fortress are not treated as Lost Souls because they are not in the Land of Bondage nor are they treated as regular characters. Rather, they are treated as captured characters. Captured heroes in a fortress are not subject to any effects that specify Heroes, Evil Characters, or Lost Souls (e.g., Band, Discard or Remove, or rescue). Cards that target all cards, captured Heroes, or captured Evil Characters can effect captured characters in a fortress.
I see. ;D
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Regarding the original discussion, I think the current ruling is pretty goofy as well. If a card has identifiers for one thing, it should have identifiers for all things...
Was Arioch the only reason for that ruling? Because... he really isn't all that strong. Also, just about every good hero is a prophet.
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Also, from the REG:
Captured characters placed in a fortress are not treated as Lost Souls because they are not in the Land of Bondage nor are they treated as regular characters. Rather, they are treated as captured characters. Captured heroes in a fortress are not subject to any effects that specify Heroes, Evil Characters, or Lost Souls (e.g., Band, Discard or Remove, or rescue). Cards that target all cards, captured Heroes, or captured Evil Characters can effect captured characters in a fortress.
So that answers it. Captured heroes in Raider's Camp (or other fortresses) are NOT shuffled by the shuffler (which targets LSs). They would also NOT be returned by Covenant of Palestine (because it specifically targets the Land of Bondage).
If Covenant of Palestine did not limit itself to the Land of Bondage, then it would indeed return the Captured Heroes from Raider's Camp to territory, because it does target "Captured Heroes" in the Play As.
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I am Redemption however, does work.
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The New Covenant also works.
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It is as Prof. Underwood says; Covenant of Palestine specifies the Land of Bondage. Raider's Camp is not in the Land of Bondage.
Neither do I understand all the ridicule of conditions for an ability. I don't particularly care for "happen-to-notice" type language but it's not hard to distinguish between conditions and targets. "If X, then do Y to Z". X is a condition but it's not the target. Z is the target but it doesn't have to match the condition.
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Was Arioch the only reason for that ruling? Because... he really isn't all that strong.
No.