Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on June 18, 2010, 09:48:40 AM
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Twelve Fingered giant stops all banding and cannot be negated. Opponent plays Transfiguration to band Moses and/or Elijah in, and Transfiguration says cannot be negated, prevented, or interrupted. Who wins?
Same thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?
Thanks!
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If HHI is active, then Transfig would still pull in Moses (because it CBN). However, it couldn't pull in Elijah because he has a banding ability himself and is therefore being ignored by HHI.
I'm less sure about the 12FG situation, but I don't think Transfig works in that case.
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Twelve Fingered giant stops all banding and cannot be negated. Opponent plays Transfiguration to band Moses and/or Elijah in, and Transfiguration says cannot be negated, prevented, or interrupted. Who wins?
Transfiguration would still work against 12FG because its CBN. CBN can't be negated even with a CBN negate like 12FG.
Same thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?
As far as HHI is concerned i'm not 100% sure but i think transfiguration would work. HHI is a prevent and an Ignore so I know you can't bring a banding hero into battle but i believe a CBN banding enhancement would work.(i'll wait to see what others say about this though to make sure it accurate ^_^
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From the Household Idols/Mary Mother of James thread:
Any character who has the potential to band is considered a banding card. Household Idols ignores banding cards, which means banding cards cannot enter battle when HHI is active.
Doesn't that mean an enhancement that is a banding card would also be ignored and unable to be played in battle? When you have Garden Tomb in play Mary's banding ability is CBN, but she can't enter, so why should you be able to play a CBN banding enhancement?
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Transfiguration definitely works with 12FG. Transfiguration is not trying to negate 12FG, so 12FG's CBN is irrelevant. 12FG is trying to negate Transfiguration, but it cannot since Transfiguration is CBN.
HHI says that good banding cards are ignored. Transfiguration is a good banding card. I know there was a debate about whether enhancements can be ignored, but I thought I saw Tim Maly say that they can. Of course, he is the black sheep of the Elder flock, so we can wait for more Elderly input. ;)
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Twelve Fingered giant stops all banding and cannot be negated. Opponent plays Transfiguration to band Moses and/or Elijah in, and Transfiguration says cannot be negated, prevented, or interrupted. Who wins?
Transfiguration would still work against 12FG because its CBN. CBN can't be negated even with a CBN negate like 12FG.
Same thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?
As far as HHI is concerned i'm not 100% sure but i think transfiguration would work. HHI is a prevent and an Ignore so I know you can't bring a banding hero into battle but i believe a CBN banding enhancement would work.(i'll wait to see what others say about this though to make sure it accurate ^_^
But if you allow Transfig to happen, then you allowed the CBN of 12FG to be negated didn't you? I thought that the timing is everything, and since the block by 12FG happened first that it would stop Trans. Or is that why Trans also says cannot be PREVENTED either? If the prevent means can't be stopped beforehand, then I assume that answers the HHI question too.
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Transfiguration definitely works with 12FG. Transfiguration is not trying to negate 12FG, so 12FG's CBN is irrelevant. 12FG is trying to negate Transfiguration, but it cannot since Transfiguration is CBN.
HHI says that good banding cards are ignored. Transfiguration is a good banding card. I know there was a debate about whether enhancements can be ignored, but I thought I saw Tim Maly say that they can. Of course, he is the black sheep of the Elder flock, so we can wait for more Elderly input. ;)
How is Trans not trying to negate 12FG? He says no banding, and my ability cannot be negated, and then trans seems to be negating that cannot be negated ability. If I had Asherah Pole activated instead and played an ee that negated all banding, we're saying that Trans could still be played because it is CBN. It just seems to me that if you allow that to happen then CBN becomes a little meaningless.
When I asked about TxP gomer banding to 12FG, they said that it was allowed because Gomer's CBN banding happens FIRST, so that 12FG cannot negate a CBN ability that happened first. I don't know why it doesn't work the same here, since 12FG happens first.
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But if you allow Transfig to happen, then you allowed the CBN of 12FG to be negated didn't you? I thought that the timing is everything, and since the block by 12FG happened first that it would stop Trans.
Transfiguration doesn't negate anything, it just bypasses any negates, whether or not they are CBN. TFG would continue to negate any other banding that battle (unless it's CBN). But Transfiguration works.
When I asked about TxP gomer banding to 12FG, they said that it was allowed because Gomer's CBN banding happens FIRST, so that 12FG cannot negate a CBN ability that happened first. I don't know why it doesn't work the same here, since 12FG happens first.
Not sure who told you that, but it's wrong. Timing has nothing to do with it. If an ability is CBN, it's CBN regardless of the negate used. A CBN negate still can't negate a CBN ability.
Household Idols also doesn't stop Transfiguration. Ignoring an enhancement doesn't mean it can't enter battle, it just means it can't directly affect anyone ignoring it. So if my Hero is ignoring Black, you can still play Wrath of Satan you just can't target anyone who is ignoring Black with it. So Transfiguration isn't directly affecting anything ignoring it, and the prevent part of it doesn't stop it, so Transfiguration works with HHI up. However, it CANNOT bring in Elijah, because even though it is CBN, Elijah is a banding card that cannot be brought into battle because of HHI.
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Transfiguration works with HHI up. However, it CANNOT bring in Elijah, because even though it is CBN, Elijah is a banding card that cannot be brought into battle because of HHI.
OK, so we were both sure on that part.
Transfiguration doesn't negate anything, it just bypasses any negates, whether or not they are CBN. TFG would continue to negate any other banding that battle (unless it's CBN). But Transfiguration works...Timing has nothing to do with it.
I'm still not sure on this part though. It seems like it would make sense for timing to come into play. If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what. Then it doesn't make sense that you could then band (even if it were CBN banding). Otherwise, "no matter what" really doesn't mean "no matter what". Really 12FG would then say that you can't band unless it's CBN banding. Which would basically just be that same thing as just "Negate all banding". By adding the CBN to 12FG, I think it might go to another level, where even CBN banding wouldn't work. Does that make sense?
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I'm still not sure on this part though. It seems like it would make sense for timing to come into play. If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what. Then it doesn't make sense that you could then band (even if it were CBN banding). Otherwise, "no matter what" really doesn't mean "no matter what". Really 12FG would then say that you can't band unless it's CBN banding. Which would basically just be that same thing as just "Negate all banding". By adding the CBN to 12FG, I think it might go to another level, where even CBN banding wouldn't work. Does that make sense?
That is a Great Logical Clarification. +1
Transfiguration can't trump 12FG because CBN can't be negated
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If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what.
This is the fallacy of the argument. The CBN part of 12FG does not say "no matter what." It says "You can't stop me (I'm looking at you CotH)." Transfiguration is not trying to stop 12FG, it is trying to work in spite of 12F. The CBN part of Transfiguration says the same thing that 12FG's CBN says: "You can't stop me."
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This question goes WAY back to when everytribe asked about Wings of Calamity on Demon in Armor stopping AoCP (definitely before the purge, possibly even on the old boards). He assumed that Demon in Armor (which negates Purple and Blue Enhancements) with Wings of Calamity placed on him (Ability of a black brigade demon CBN) could stop AoCP from taking effect. He was wrong then, and this argument is wrong now.
Let's say that TFG DIDN'T say CBN, just, "Negate all banding". Then I play Transfiguration. Am I negating his ability? No, I'm just bypassing it. If I bring in just Elijah with Transfiguration, I cannot now band to Elisha, because TFG is still working. TFG is CBN, but that doesn't change anything. Nothing is being negated, just bypassed.
If a card said something like: "Interrupt the battle, and band to any Hero. Cannot be interrupted." Then that could get around a standard "negate banding" card, but not TFG. Why? Because in the standard case, the negate banding doesn't stop the interrupt, so the interrupt interrupts the negate, bands, and by the time that the negate kicks back in, the banding is CBI (it sticks). However, such a card couldn't interrupt TFG's negate, so the banding wouldn't be able to activate.
If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what.
This is the fallacy of the argument. The CBN part of 12FG does not say "no matter what." It says "You can't stop me (I'm looking at you CotH)." Transfiguration is not trying to stop 12FG, it is trying to work in spite of 12F. The CBN part of Transfiguration says the same thing that 12FG's CBN says: "You can't stop me."
Very well put.
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This is the fallacy of the argument. The CBN part of 12FG does not say "no matter what."
Perhaps this is right. Perhaps I have been seeing CBN slightly wrong.
Nothing is being negated, just bypassed.
But intuitively, doesn't it seem like if 12FG's ability stops banding, and then you band, that you somehow negated his ability to stop you?
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When did the term 'bypass' become a special ability? Looking in REG...Still looking...
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12FG stops all banding is about as intuitive as it gets.
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Laying aside all my assumptions and trying to understand the otherside of this discussion,.... are you saying that because
12FG s/a "Negate all banding abilities. Cannot be negated." can only activate or trigger after a banding ability is played, that because Transfiguration would play triggering 12FG s/a and because Transfiguration is a CBN then 12FG can't negate?
Are you also saying that once 12FG is played it can't negate banding abilities played after it?
Help an old man understand.
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When did the term 'bypass' become a special ability? Looking in REG...Still looking...
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12FG stops all banding is about as intuitive as it gets.
Totally agree. This "bypass" thing is throwing me because I've never heard of it before either. Takes me back now to my Gomer TxP banding to 12FG. Who wins that one now? They both say CBN!
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When did the term 'bypass' become a special ability? Looking in REG...Still looking...
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12FG stops all banding is about as intuitive as it gets.
It's not supposed to be a special ability. It's just an explanation of what happens.
Laying aside all my assumptions and trying to understand the otherside of this discussion,.... are you saying that because
12FG s/a "Negate all banding abilities. Cannot be negated." can only activate or trigger after a banding ability is played, that because Transfiguration would play triggering 12FG s/a and because Transfiguration is a CBN then 12FG can't negate?
TFG's ability to negate all banding activates as soon as he enters battle. From that point, any negatable banding that has occurred is negated, and any negatable banding to be played from that point is prevented from happening. How can TFG prevent a non-preventable ability?
But intuitively, doesn't it seem like if 12FG's ability stops banding, and then you band, that you somehow negated his ability to stop you?
No, you just banded regardless of the ability, because the only thing that was stopping you from banding cannot stop you.
When did the term 'bypass' become a special ability? Looking in REG...Still looking...
???
12FG stops all banding is about as intuitive as it gets.
Totally agree. This "bypass" thing is throwing me because I've never heard of it before either. Takes me back now to my Gomer TxP banding to 12FG. Who wins that one now? They both say CBN!
Gomer's ability to band cannot be negated (cannot be stopped before or after) the only thing that would be able to stop her is TFGs negate, but it can't be stopped.
Here's how TFGs negate does work. I have a huge FBTN band (Claudia to Simeon to Jacob to Captain). You block with TFG. Usually, TFGs ability to negate banding would be stopped by Captain. However, because he is CBN, it can't. Captain tries to negate the negate, but he can't. So it goes to Claudia vs. TFG in a non-FBTN battle.
Transfiguration is not trying to negate anything. It's just trying to band. And since the banding can't be prevented, it doesn't matter whether it's King of Tyrus who is blocking, or TFG, nothing can stop it.
Help an old man understand.
Trust me, I've tried that. Bill still brings up the Demon in Armor/Wings/AoCP question to me and thinks it shouldn't be the way it is. And he's really old. ;)
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Enhancements can't be ignored. Transfig> Both those cards. HHI does stop elijah though.
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If I'm wrong at any point here, please point it out.
When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all. Activating a banding ability while TFG is in battle does not negate TFG's ability. TFG's ability continues to work. A card negates another card (X) if and only if it says "Negate X". All CBN does is keep cards like CotH and Ehud's Dagger from stopping it. CBN does not mean "no matter what".
In the Gomer+TFG situation, the fact that TFG's ability is CBN makes no difference, since no card in this situation says "negate TFG's ability" or something like that. Gomer isn't negating TFG by banding.
From the REG:
Negate stops and prevents a targeted special ability or card. The negate ability is played in the Field of Battle. It can undo another card already played unless the card explicitly states it cannot be negated. Negate is the same as ‘interrupt and prevent’ combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle. (See Cannot be negated).
Negate is this and nothing more. Hopefully I'm clearing things up rather than muddying the waters further. Prof A or YMT, let me know if I'm wrong here. :)
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If I'm wrong at any point here, please point it out.
When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all. Activating a banding ability while TFG is in battle does not negate TFG's ability. TFG's ability continues to work. A card negates another card (X) if and only if it says "Negate X". All CBN does is keep cards like CotH and Ehud's Dagger from stopping it. CBN does not mean "no matter what".
In the Gomer+TFG situation, the fact that TFG's ability is CBN makes no difference, since no card in this situation says "negate TFG's ability" or something like that. Gomer isn't negating TFG by banding.
From the REG:
Negate stops and prevents a targeted special ability or card. The negate ability is played in the Field of Battle. It can undo another card already played unless the card explicitly states it cannot be negated. Negate is the same as ‘interrupt and prevent’ combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle. (See Cannot be negated).
Negate is this and nothing more. Hopefully I'm clearing things up rather than muddying the waters further. Prof A or YMT, let me know if I'm wrong here. :)
You are right on here.
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When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.
That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?
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How can AOCP happen in a fbtn battle? Same way. CBN is protecting it from the negate.
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When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.
That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?
The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated. He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig). But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.
This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal. Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior. Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.
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When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.
That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?
The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated. He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig). But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.
This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal. Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior. Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.
What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?! Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN". Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it. I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.
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CBN cannot be negated no way no how not even by a negate that is CBN because essentially it's still a "negate" and CBN's can't be Negated. as said by others Transfiguration is not trying to negate12FG.
Here's how TFGs negate does work. I have a huge FBTN band (Claudia to Simeon to Jacob to Captain). You block with TFG. Usually, TFGs ability to negate banding would be stopped by Captain. However, because he is CBN, it can't. Captain tries to negate the negate, but he can't. So it goes to Claudia vs. TFG in a non-FBTN battle.
I agree with this(and think it's the main reason for TFG) but wouldn't the battle end up as Claudia vs. TFG in a FBTN battle?
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When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.
That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?
The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated. He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig). But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.
This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal. Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior. Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.
What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?! Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN". Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it. I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.
I think the term "bypass" was a bad choice of a word(?). I think that since negate is a 'stop' it doesn't stop anything until the something is attempted. And in this case you can't stop the transfiguration. I don't like it. I think of the CBN as also being a able to stop all banding that followsand it can't be neggated., but like Professor Obama you can't argue with a Prof. ;D
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Let me put it this way instead, by taking Transfiguration out.
1) Lydia is blocked by 12FG. Lydia tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes. Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding." Fellowship does not happen. I am correct about this scenario, right?
2) PAUL is blocked by 12FG. Paul tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes. Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding, and my negating of banding cannot be negated." Owner of Paul says, "Yeah, but anything Paul plays cannot be negated either. The band happens despite your CBN negating of banding." The banding is allowed to occur?
Is the scenario any different whether its a hero whose enhancements cannot be negated, or an enhancement that no matter who plays it cannot be negated? If so, why is there a difference? Again, it just seems to me like we are saying CBN abilities CAN be negated (bypassed) by other CBN abilities. If that's the rule, fine, but that's not what the commandment says.
It seems to me that the logical approach is "Which CBN ability happens FIRST?" Once it has happened, NOTHING should be able to stop it, bypass it, whatever, not even another CBN ability. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for listening.
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What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?! Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN". Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it. I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.
Actually, that is what makes CBN so special. It CAN'T be negated by ANYTHING, including a CBN negate. CBN basically means "protected from negate". If the ability which happens to be CBN doesn't work against a particular target, it's not like it's of a sudden negated.
Consider this scenario: I attack with Lydia, who is protected from capture. She is the only hero in play. You block with Esau the Hunter, I grant you initiative, and you play Stocks. What happens? Nothing. Lydia is PROTECTED from capture. She is not negating Stocks, but since Stocks has no legal targets, it doesn't capture anyone. Stocks is CBN on Esau, but it still doesn't work against anything that is PROTECTED against it. If there is one more hero in play, then Stocks captures him/her. But Stocks was never negated simply because it didn't have a legal target - this is true of any CBN ability.
It's the same way with 12FG and Transfiguration. Transfiguration's banding ability is CBN, which means it is PROTECTED from negate. The fact that 12FG's ability is CBN has nothing to do with his actual ability to negate banding. And his ability cannot negate Transfig because Transfig is CBN. 12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN. So if Elijah enters battle via Transfig, he cannot band to Elisha, becaus 12FG is negating his ability to do so. The key is that 12FG's ability is not negated simply because someting was protected from being targeted by his ability.
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Here's how TFGs negate does work. I have a huge FBTN band (Claudia to Simeon to Jacob to Captain). You block with TFG. Usually, TFGs ability to negate banding would be stopped by Captain. However, because he is CBN, it can't. Captain tries to negate the negate, but he can't. So it goes to Claudia vs. TFG in a non-FBTN battle.
I agree with this(and think it's the main reason for TFG) but wouldn't the battle end up as Claudia vs. TFG in a FBTN battle?
No because the FBTN is negated when the band to Captain is negated. The only time FBTN sticks if the banding is negated is when it causes a loop.
And in these situations you have to look at the Rock, Paper, Scissors aspect of redemption, Negate trumps Protect, Protect trumps CBN and CBN trumps Negate.
If the card says negate and the other card says cannot be negated the cannot be negated still goes through, CBN doesn't negate anything, its like protection (however it is still a different ability but its useful to think of it as a protect)
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1) Lydia is blocked by 12FG. Lydia tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes. Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding." Fellowship does not happen. I am correct about this scenario, right?
2) PAUL is blocked by 12FG. Paul tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes. Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding, and my negating of banding cannot be negated." Owner of Paul says, "Yeah, but anything Paul plays cannot be negated either. The band happens despite your CBN negating of banding." The banding is allowed to occur?
both of those scenarios are correct.
Is the scenario any different whether its a hero whose enhancements cannot be negated, or an enhancement that no matter who plays it cannot be negated?
no. CBN=CBN
No because the FBTN is negated when the band to Captain is negated. The only time FBTN sticks if the banding is negated is when it causes a loop.
ok i understand that now. I got confused because i was thinking of a situation where you band to a FBTN character.
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Stefferweffer, there is only one point that you are missing. Tranfiguration is not trying to negate 12FG (which it could not). Instead, 12FG is trying to negate Transfiguration, but it can not. That is all we are saying.
The only reason 12FG has the CBN is so that his SA could not be negated by a FBTN character that entered battle before or after him. That is all. The CBN has no other meaning. I think too many people are assuming that CBN for 12FG means that there is no possible way to band, and that is simply not true. The first commandment that you keep referring to is why some banding is still possible. CBN does not negate CBN. CBN means that nothing can ever negate it. Transfiguration is CBN, so nothing (not even 12FG) can ever negate it.
As another example, if the three Elders of Jerusalem are banded together, 12FG could not negate that band. Period.
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Stefferweffer, The only reason 12FG has the CBN is so that his SA could not be negated by a FBTN character that entered battle before or after him. That is all. The CBN has no other meaning. I think too many people are assuming that CBN for 12FG means that there is no possible way to band, and that is simply not true.
Thank you. And I assume it works in reverse too? If we had a hero that negated all banding, cannot be negated, that you could still use TxP Gomer's ability?
And I assume that if an EC plays a CBN battle winner removing the hero from battle, that the hero cannot respond by playing another CBN card?
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Thank you. And I assume it works in reverse too? If we had a hero that negated all banding, cannot be negated, that you could still use TxP Gomer's ability?
And I assume that if an EC plays a CBN battle winner removing the hero from battle, that the hero cannot respond by playing another CBN card?
Exactly. ;D
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12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN.
But that's not actually true. 12FG is NOT negating the banding ability of Transfig if it is in battle. This seems unintuitive.
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12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN.
But that's not actually true. 12FG is NOT negating the banding ability of Transfig if it is in battle. This seems unintuitive.
12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.
Picture 12FG with a 9mm pistol that shoots any banding. Now picture Transfig working BEHIND bullet proof glass. It doesn't matter how awesome 12fg's gun is, it WON'T break that glass.
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12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.
Picture 12FG with a 9mm pistol that shoots any banding. Now picture Transfig working BEHIND bullet proof glass. It doesn't matter how awesome 12fg's gun is, it WON'T break that glass.
OK, but then you're saying that 12FG ability is being stopped by the "bullet-proof glass". But 12FG ability is CBN, which intuitively means that it can't be stopped.
Now I understand the rock-paper-scissors thing, which would say that protection beats CBN. And I'm fine with that, but a long time ago it was ruled that 12FG stopped Cherubim+ET+PoA. Now normally PoA would protect all heroes from being targeted, and therefore, it would stop 12FG from targeting Cherubim, and yet that is how it was ruled.
What I'm saying is that this appears inconsistent. If the protection of PoA doesn't stop 12FG from targeting, then the protection of Transfig shouldn't allow it to stop 12FG from targeting. And if 12FG targets, then he hits, because he is CBN.
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CBN abilities can't be negated. Even by other CBN abilities.
CBN is the "speed of light" of Redemption. No matter how you look at it, it just is.
Transfiguration CBN, so a negate can't beat it. Even a CBN negate can't beat another CBN ability.
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With 2 Elders (Bryon and Prof A) as well as a couple REPs (YMT and RR) all siding on the side of Transfig working in spite of 12FG, I will submit to that as the official ruling.
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12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.
Picture 12FG with a 9mm pistol that shoots any banding. Now picture Transfig working BEHIND bullet proof glass. It doesn't matter how awesome 12fg's gun is, it WON'T break that glass.
OK, but then you're saying that 12FG ability is being stopped by the "bullet-proof glass". But 12FG ability is CBN, which intuitively means that it can't be stopped.
Now I understand the rock-paper-scissors thing, which would say that protection beats CBN. And I'm fine with that, but a long time ago it was ruled that 12FG stopped Cherubim+ET+PoA. Now normally PoA would protect all heroes from being targeted, and therefore, it would stop 12FG from targeting Cherubim, and yet that is how it was ruled.
What I'm saying is that this appears inconsistent. If the protection of PoA doesn't stop 12FG from targeting, then the protection of Transfig shouldn't allow it to stop 12FG from targeting. And if 12FG targets, then he hits, because he is CBN.
CBN does not mean cannot be stopped. It means cannot be stopped from activating.
So 12fg's ability can't be stopped from activating. Which it does, and his ability is to stop other abilities.
Transfig's ability cannot be stopped from activating. Which it does, and its ability is to band.
Understand why now?
Btw: POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.
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POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.
A few points:
- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities. POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.
- You cannot protect a special ability.
- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all. You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.
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Same thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?
Thanks!
So what was the final ruling on this? I can see where Transfiguration would be ignored, but what if you use Transfig on FSP to bring in Moses? Is it still 12/12 fbtn becasue HHI is not ignoring FSP or Moses?
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Transfiguration isn't ignored. Enhancements can only be ignored insofar as they can not directly affect the ignoring card. So HHI can't ignore Transfiguration, and it can't prevent it, so yes, FSP + Transfiguration + Moses is 12/12 FBTN with nothing being ignored. But as mentioned earlier, Elijah cannot be brought in because he is ignored (as a banding card).
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POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.
A few points:
- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities. POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.
- You cannot protect a special ability.
- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all. You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.
You can't protect a special ability? Isn't that what CBN does?
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POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.
A few points:
- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities. POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.
- You cannot protect a special ability.
- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all. You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.
You can't protect a special ability? Isn't that what CBN does?
CBI/CBP/CBN/CBR are technically their own ability. They function like protects, but are not classified as such. This is because typical protect abilities have no effect on negates.
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Even CBN protects oddly enough.