Author Topic: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!  (Read 8111 times)

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« on: November 14, 2014, 08:44:55 AM »
NEW DEFINITION AND EXAMPLES

Special Initiative
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's special ability, would leave that player with no character in battle when the special ability has completed, they have Special Initiative.

When this occurs, all abilities are paused and suspended (including additional abilities on cards played or any triggers) and the player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule).  The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability.  If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.



     Example: A single hero is in battle and the opponent plays Net: “Take any Hero in play prisoner and place in your Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul.”  The player controlling the hero has the opportunity to play an enhancement that either interrupts or negates the effect on Net before it completes and the hero is captured.  Any enhancement that interrupts or negates Net or evil capture could be played.

     Example: A single hero is in battle and the opponent plays Tenants Kill the Son: “If used by a Pharisee or Sadducee, discard a Hero to draw a card. Cannot be prevented.”  All abilities are paused immediately before the hero is removed from battle, so, before the draw happens, the player controlling the hero has the opportunity to play an enhancement that either interrupts or negates the effect on Tenants Kill the Son.  If after Special Initiative resolves the ability is still active (because nothing was played, or what was played did not permanently negate the ability), then the suspended abilities, in this case the drawing of a card, complete.

     Example: Multiple heroes are in battle, all with toughness of 6 or lower.  The opponent plays Hunger: “All Heroes of one opponent decrease 6/6 for remainder of turn.”  This would discard all heroes in battle, because a character reduced to toughness 0 or less is discarded by game rule.  As all characters are being removed by game rule as a result of an opponent’s ability, the player controlling the heroes has the opportunity to play an enhancement on any of those heroes that either interrupts or negates the effect on Hunger.

     Example: Uriah the Hittite (a Red Canaanite Hero) is in battle, and the opponent discards Magic Charms to capture him: “Protect your Magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your Magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes.”  Even though Magic Charms is already discarded when Special Initiative is given and abilities are paused, the player controlling Uriah may still play Foreign Sword to negate and topdeck it: “Negate an opponent’s evil or neutral card. If used by a Canaanite or Philistine, you may return that card to the top of owner’s deck.”  Because Foreign Sword specifically targets a neutral card, it can target Magic Charms during Special Initiative even though it is out of play.

     Example: Multiple heroes are in battle, and the opponent plays a card to discard only one of them.  There is no Special Initiative, because it did not remove all of the remaining heroes from battle.

     Example: Only one evil character is in battle, and Samuel’s Edict is played on Samuel: “Negate an evil card. Discard an Evil Character. Cannot be negated if the only Hero in battle is Samuel or a Judge with no special ability.”  The special ability is removing the only character in battle, but because it was played on Samuel, it is Cannot be Negated.  Since nothing could be played to interrupt or negate the ability, there is no Special Initiative.

     Example: A single hero is in battle and the opponent plays Net: “Take any Hero in play prisoner and place in your Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul.”  The player controlling the hero, with Special Initiative, plays Sign of the Rainbow: "Negate and discard the last evil enhancement played in current battle."  Since the ability was negated, the hero remains in battle.  With normal initiative, the blocker plays Israel Pays Tribute from hand: "Negate one enhancement in battle. Opponent may draw a card."  The blocker targets Sign of the Rainbow, and so after Israel Pays Tribute completes (since reactivation cannot insert between abilities), Net attempts to reactivate.  Since the negation was negated, Net is able to reactivate, and it does so with the same targeting (targeting the hero in battle), the same as when it had been played initially.  Once again, this is removing the only hero in battle, and so Special Initiative is granted again.

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 08:45:09 AM »
Reasons for the Change

Current Definitions:

Quote from: The REG
Special Initiative
When you are losing the battle by removal, you are granted special initiative to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the card that is causing your charact’s removal. You are considered to be losing by removal when an opponent’s special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent’s special ability, would leave you with no character in battle when the special ability has completed.
Quote from: The REG
Instead
Cards that use the word "instead" replace an effect with a different effect. When a card has a new effect applied to it "instead", it is not considered to have the original effect applied to it in any way.  As such, "instead" implies a "would be" condition for the original effect (e.g. "if your character [would be] discarded...")

The rule on Special Initiative had been that it could not insert between other abilities, and thus abilities completed before it was granted.  For example, if you used Herod's Treachery while Herod Agrippa II is in battle, the characters withdraw.  However, before you had the opportunity to negate Treachery, automatic triggers like HA II had to complete, and the characters were therefore captured (which was then CBN, and no SI would be granted).

Or if you had Assyrian Archer with Two Thousand Horses block, and played an enhancement that would cause Special Initiative, then the band would still complete (along with the abilities on any characters/cards brought in as a result).  Were an End the Battle ability on a card like Forgotten History played, Special Initiative could never take place.

In the same way, automatic triggers on cards like Chamber of Angels and Obadiah's Caves activated and completed before Special Initiative was granted.  Based on the definition of Instead (above, applies to both cards), the effect that initially caused removal (discard and remove-from-game, respectively) never actually happened; rather, the card truly causing the removal from battle was the fortress.  Therefore, the player was required to interrupt/negate their own fortress as part of the Special Initiative (which, if you did, would only negate the instead and reapply the condition which was insteaded).

This was discussed at Nationals and it was agreed that, while this was correct per the current rules, it was not something that should be happening.  This change fixes the newly-identified problem.

In addition, there has been discussion regarding the effectiveness and application of Special Initiative, and this change was also proposed to increase the amount of interaction in the Battle Phase, rather than just allow each player to play a large number of cards and end the battle on their terms without the opponent being able to respond.

All told, this change will correct an issue with the interaction between Special Initiative and Instead, increase player interaction, and make Special Initiative truly Special.

Lastly, the stamp of approval:

Quote from: CactusRob
I support announcing this as official.

Rob

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 08:46:12 AM »
Please let me know your questions or concerns about this change!

I will update this post with questions, and then the answers so that everyone can see them easily.



So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

Yes, SI is granted and then NC&H goes off once that ends, if it is able.



So, does the 2kH/Forgotten History combo work differently now?

It works much the same as far as saving the Archers, that hasn't changed.  However, if you used multiple Archers banded together, each with Horses on them, if you play an enhancement that grants SI on one of them, you do NOT get to keep banding/playing with the others until SI resolves.  That is the new rule, you stop when SI is granted.



So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Yes, the withdraw can be interrupted or negated before the capture triggers.

This is correct, and does indeed reverse the 'old' ruling on the combo.



So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So a follow up question for this example.  Random Disciple makes a rescue attempt.  He is blocked by Otho w/ NC&H.  Otho decides to discard all cards in battle, which give the Disciple SI.  He plays ML&MG to negate and discard Otho.  Otho now has SI, does that not allow NC&H to be played since it is technically interrupting ML&MG?

Good question.  SI means that they player "has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal."  Technically, a weapon is already played when it enters battle, it is just waiting its 'turn' to activate, but it is already considered 'played' (see Covenant with Death stopping abilities on good weapons pre-block).  Therefore, an enhancement played during SI must come from hand.  So no, NC&H cannot be used during SI if it is already on the character.

And while we have the Warriors Spear + Spy ruling, this case is different in that the character is no longer in play.  Thus, it has been ruled in the past that Otho's weapon cannot activate if he has been discarded, since he is no longer in play for it to complete activation on.

Had the card in your example simply negated Otho without discarding him, then his weapon would activate and could interrupt the negating card.

To recap: Weapons already equipped cannot be used as part of SI, and weapons on characters do not complete activation if the character has already left play by the time they would activate.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 10:44:46 AM by Redoubter »

LukeChips

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 10:40:53 AM »
Yay, more rules. lol This is a good rule change that makes the game more like a real battle.

Offline ChristianSoldier

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1613
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 11:46:37 AM »
This is exactly how I have wanted Special Initiative to be ruled for quite some time now. So I say, this is awesome.
If you are reading this signature, thank a physicist.

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 12:25:53 PM »
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates. 
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Bobbert

  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
  • The player formerly known as Thomas Hunter
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 12:28:30 PM »
Me gusta. Much more intuitive.

So, does the 2kH/Forgotten History combo work differently now? I'm a bit confused as to why it was used as an example, as it doesn't seem like that changes at all (of course, that might just be me being blind/tired).
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 12:34:52 PM »
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

Yes, SI is granted and then NC&H goes off once that ends, if it is able.

So, does the 2kH/Forgotten History combo work differently now?

It works much the same as far as saving the Archers, that hasn't changed.  However, if you used multiple Archers banded together, each with Horses on them, if you play an enhancement that grants SI on one of them, you do NOT get to keep banding/playing with the others until SI resolves.  That is the new rule, you stop when SI is granted.

Chris

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 02:10:43 PM »
I wish it would have been changed that you can play any enhancement that will stop the removal itself, not just the specific ability doing it (e.g. interrupting the battle to kill a Herod in battle, making Herod's Dungeon moot).

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 02:20:58 PM »
I wish it would have been changed that you can play any enhancement that will stop the removal itself, not just the specific ability doing it (e.g. interrupting the battle to kill a Herod in battle, making Herod's Dungeon moot).

First, the idea of indirectly allowing SI to target gets to be much more complex (while this solution was intended to be simplistic).  What is or is not allowable would change tremendously between cards/card types being used on either side, and it becomes much less clear-cut.

Second, even if indirect were allowed, you still could not do that in this case.  ItB only interrupts abilities activated in battle, and therefore could not touch Dungeon regardless, and so it makes no sense to allow you to somehow interrupt Dungeon without interrupting it.  That would be like allowing someone to play any discard enhancement that did not have interrupt or negate to discard a character and thus cause the enhancement they played to fizzle.

Offline TheJaylor

  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3114
  • Fortress Alstad
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Redemption with Jayden
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2014, 11:36:50 PM »
So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Offline ChristianSoldier

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1613
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2014, 11:39:12 PM »
So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Yes, the withdraw can be interrupted or negated before the capture triggers.
If you are reading this signature, thank a physicist.

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2014, 11:50:01 PM »
So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Yes, the withdraw can be interrupted or negated before the capture triggers.

This is correct, and does indeed reverse the 'old' ruling on the combo.

Offline Crashfach2002

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+145)
  • *****
  • Posts: 3057
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2014, 07:33:00 AM »
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So a follow up question for this example.  Random Disciple makes a rescue attempt.  He is blocked by Otho w/ NC&H.  Otho decides to discard all cards in battle, which give the Disciple SI.  He plays ML&MG to negate and discard Otho.  Otho now has SI, does that not allow NC&H to be played since it is technically interrupting ML&MG?

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2014, 10:43:26 AM »
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So a follow up question for this example.  Random Disciple makes a rescue attempt.  He is blocked by Otho w/ NC&H.  Otho decides to discard all cards in battle, which give the Disciple SI.  He plays ML&MG to negate and discard Otho.  Otho now has SI, does that not allow NC&H to be played since it is technically interrupting ML&MG?

Good question.  SI means that they player "has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal."  Technically, a weapon is already played when it enters battle, it is just waiting its 'turn' to activate, but it is already considered 'played' (see Covenant with Death stopping abilities on good weapons pre-block).  Therefore, an enhancement played during SI must come from hand.  So no, NC&H cannot be used during SI if it is already on the character.

And while we have the Warriors Spear + Spy ruling, this case is different in that the character is no longer in play.  Thus, it has been ruled in the past that Otho's weapon cannot activate if he has been discarded, since he is no longer in play for it to complete activation on.

Had the card in your example simply negated Otho without discarding him, then his weapon would activate and could interrupt the negating card.

To recap: Weapons already equipped cannot be used as part of SI, and weapons on characters do not complete activation if the character has already left play by the time they would activate.

Moral of the story: Do not equip Otho pre-block if you want to use his self-discard.

Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+45)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • T1-2P 2003 National Champion
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Redemption CCG FL
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 02:58:19 PM »
I'm trying to catch myself up on current rules.

Reading this:
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So when a EC enters battle with a WC enhancement on them, what ability triggers first, the EC's or the Enhancement, or do you get to choose?

Also when a character gains a set aside ability which ability is first the set aside, or the actually character?
Redemption FL - Massive Redemption Resource, Check it Out!

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 04:25:38 PM »
I'm trying to catch myself up on current rules.

Reading this:
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So when a EC enters battle with a WC enhancement on them, what ability triggers first, the EC's or the Enhancement, or do you get to choose?

Also when a character gains a set aside ability which ability is first the set aside, or the actually character?

Abilities have a set order of activation, which can be found in the REG:

Quote from: The REG
Special Abilities
These are the instructions printed on the pic-ture of some cards. ( See Anatomy of a Card and
Resolving Special Ability Combinations in the rulebook).
There are two types of special abilities that define how a special ability is carried out: Ongoing
Abilities and Instant Abilities. When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained
abilities), perform the abilities in this order:
 First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except those that add a
character to the battle. Note that some special abilities can happen together even though
they may be separated by a period. Second, if the card is a character with either a gained
ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order
gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.
 Complete banding abilities.
 Complete any Choose Blocker or Rescuer abilities.

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: MAJOR RULE CHANGE 11-14-2014 // SPECIAL INITIATIVE UPDATED!
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 04:28:19 PM »
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So when a EC enters battle with a WC enhancement on them, what ability triggers first, the EC's or the Enhancement, or do you get to choose?

Also when a character gains a set aside ability which ability is first the set aside, or the actually character?
Correct. The opponent has special initiative to interrupt/negate Otho before NC&H resolves.

For 2 and 3 please review the order of operations from the Reg/Wiki:

Quote from: Order of Operations
When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), perform the abilities in this order:

First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except those that add a character to the battle. Note that some special abilities can happen together even though they may be separated by a period. Second, if the card is a character with either a gained ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.
Complete banding abilities.
Complete any Choose Blocker or Rescuer abilities.


*instaposted*

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal