Author Topic: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement  (Read 1731 times)

Offline Gabe

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Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« on: September 13, 2021, 05:12:09 PM »
+8
As you’ve probably noticed from Rob’s message, there are a number of important changes that have taken place for the 2021-22 Redemption tournament season!

As the card pool continues to grow it has become increasingly difficult to support the number of cards, especially considering many were printed with no idea what the game would look like today! During this tournament season we are going to introduce a new format that uses only cards that have the redesigned look that began with the I/J Stater deck. All cards with the “scroll type” scripture box will not be legal in this format. We are going to call this new format “Rotation”. It will be the primary format we support and encourage this year.

When a tournament host registers for a Local or District tournament, the host may choose between three different options for Type1 - 2 Player and Type 2 - 2 Player events:
-Rotation (described above)
-Classic (uses all cards printed)
-Lineage of Christ (uses only cards from this set)

When the Gospel of Christ set releases we will also offer a Gospel of Christ only format as a 4th option.

Teams events will offer a choice of Rotation or Classic.

Booster draft and Sealed deck formats remain unchanged from last season.

Since Type 1 and Type 2 multi-player formats are not offering RNRS points and prize support this season, if hosts have several players interested in these multi-player formats, we recommend holding an unofficial side event. As a result of the decrease in available categories at District Tournaments the cost has been reduced.

At the State, Regional and National tournament level Hosts are required to use the Rotation format for all constructed categories.

At Nationals 2022 the leadership team plans to host side events for classic and multi-player formats. Details are still being worked out but we are discussing running events for Type 1 - 2P classic, Type 2 - 2P classic, Type 1 multi-player classic and Type 2 multi-player classic. When the sign up for any one event is full (possibly 8 player maximum) the event will start and a new sign up will open. We’d like to host as many of these side events as possible. The winner of the side event will receive an exclusive, borderless National Tournament Special Promo!

In addition to changes to the tournament card pool and available categories, we’d like to announce a few additional changes for the 2021-22 season.

- Instead of using Lost Souls to determine which player chooses who will play first, after all players have drawn the opening hand, players should use a random method (such as a coin flip or dice roll) to determine which player will choose who takes the first turn. The winner of the random method that is used will make the choice, which applies to all pre-game events including star abilities and activating lost souls.

- For Classic events, in addition to removing a torn Haman’s Plot, players have the choice to replace the torn card with a new Haman’s Plot.

- No official change is taking place at this time, but we want to give players advance noticed that we are thoroughly vetting an upcoming change to the Reserve that will restrict players from removing cards from any reserve for a set amount of time. We’ve tested the time frame of 3 rounds and 2 rounds. We are currently testing 1 round.

The leadership team loves this game and wants what is best for the game and the players today and long into the future. These are changes were not made lightly or abruptly, they have been thoroughly vetted. We’re trying these things for the 2021-22 tournament season because we believe they are best for the health of the game and the player base.

Please feel free to share your question, comments, concerns and critiques in a healthy and constructive way.
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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2021, 06:21:17 PM »
0
Just out of curiosity why no multi?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2021, 06:56:15 PM »
0
Just out of curiosity why no multi?

I don't know all of the reasons behind that decision but I'll share a couple things that I know were factors:

Participation in MP formats at the tournament level is very low. Outside of Nationals, only a handful of people even earned RNRS points in each of the MP constructed categories last year. As we considered supporting new tournament formats it also led to assessing old formats to consider if they still warranted support.

We realize there are still people that enjoy multi-player, but the nature of the format lends itself to a fun, casual format, not necessarily a tournament category.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 07:24:47 PM by Gabe »
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Offline MarshallMatters

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2021, 07:46:58 PM »
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Just to clarify, Would I need all the reprint legacy rares to play in the rotation formate or am i able to use the origonal version of the card- if it is the same card?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2021, 07:49:46 PM »
0
Just to clarify, Would I need all the reprint legacy rares to play in the rotation formate or am i able to use the origonal version of the card- if it is the same card?

Great question! Even though some reprints and Legacy Rares are functionally the exact same card, the old versions won't be allowed if they use the old card design (described as scroll type scripture box and/or special ability over the art).
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Offline MarshallMatters

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2021, 08:17:06 PM »
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Bummer, wish I would got ride of more cards.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2021, 11:10:54 PM »
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So RNRS are now only based upon the rotation format, correct?  And if I host a local, can I run each of the 3 categories? For example, we want to do the classic and rotation as separate events in one local tournament (similar to how it was by running T1 2P and T1 MP).
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 12:37:48 AM »
+1
All 3 (or 4, once GoC is released) T1 categories count towards T12P RNRS.

As far as I know, you're only allowed 1 official T12P category at each tournament.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2021, 12:52:15 AM »
+1
All 3 (or 4, once GoC is released) T1 categories count towards T12P RNRS.

As far as I know, you're only allowed 1 official T12P category at each tournament.

^^ This is accurate.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 07:04:05 AM »
0
Just a quick question on logistics related to rotation...

Is Cactus going to stop selling the "classic" only cards or add a note on the store somewhere that these cards are not legal for most tournaments?

It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.

Offline Reth

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 09:34:31 AM »
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I like the concept of the player with the most Lost Souls on table after starting hand decides for who goes 1st in terms of Stars, LS abilities and starting the game respectivly.

Except for reasons like in the LaFS combo where going 1st was more crucial: What have been the reasons for changing this one?

Offline Red

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 10:09:35 AM »
0
Just a quick question on logistics related to rotation...

Is Cactus going to stop selling the "classic" only cards or add a note on the store somewhere that these cards are not legal for most tournaments?

It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.
I really favor having the choice between Classic and Rotation through States and Regionals for this reason.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 10:11:50 AM »
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@Gabe and @RedemptionAggie I thought we could do T1 2P and LoC constructed in the same tournament?  I know we’ve been doing that for the online tournaments.
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2021, 10:16:48 AM »
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@Gabe and @RedemptionAggie I thought we could do T1 2P and LoC constructed in the same tournament?  I know we’ve been doing that for the online tournaments.

To be fair the online is a different animal where Rob and I have worked out a deal to offer both.  It started out as me actually hosting two tournaments at the same time on the same day, then Rob worked with me.

Offline SpartaPastor

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2021, 10:25:46 AM »
+1
@Gabe and @RedemptionAggie I thought we could do T1 2P and LoC constructed in the same tournament?  I know we’ve been doing that for the online tournaments.

To be fair the online is a different animal where Rob and I have worked out a deal to offer both.  It started out as me actually hosting two tournaments at the same time on the same day, then Rob worked with me.

how did the online go, was it successful, or a bit cumbersome

Offline Gabe

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2021, 10:42:22 AM »
+1
Just a quick question on logistics related to rotation...

Is Cactus going to stop selling the "classic" only cards or add a note on the store somewhere that these cards are not legal for most tournaments?

It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.

I can't speak for Rob as to what he plans to continue to offer or what disclaimers he may or may not post. But I can address some inaccuracies in your statements.

Classic cards are still legal for most tournaments. The bulk of Redemption tournaments are Local and District level, where hosts can choose to use the classic cards if that's what the play group prefers. Classic cards are also still 100% legal in booster draft and sealed deck, even at the State, Regional and National level.

Those of us on the forums and Discord make up a small percentage of Redemption customers. Most customers are casual players or collectors. But, speaking from experience, we tend to think we represent the bulk of the player base and make our assessments and judgments based on that inaccurate information. Most "kids" that buy classic cards aren't ever going to experience the disappointment you imagine.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2021, 12:33:59 PM »
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It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.

Under what circumstance have you experienced players attending a tournament who are not already in communication with either the host or active players?  The host/active players normally inform any prospective attendees (kids or adults) of the specifics of the tournament (ie, date, time, location, cost, categories offered, etc) leading up to the tournament.  If you have a playgroup that is comprised of mostly kids (or kids who would be invited for the first time) who have access to mainly older cards then simply host a tournament that would offer classic play.  If you host a state+ then just advertise that rotation will be the only legal Type 1 or Type 2 play at this level tournament.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2021, 12:35:59 PM »
0
@Gabe and @RedemptionAggie I thought we could do T1 2P and LoC constructed in the same tournament?  I know we’ve been doing that for the online tournaments.

To be fair the online is a different animal where Rob and I have worked out a deal to offer both.  It started out as me actually hosting two tournaments at the same time on the same day, then Rob worked with me.

Gotcha. Thx
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2021, 01:05:41 PM »
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It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.

I can't speak for Rob as to what he plans to continue to offer or what disclaimers he may or may not post. But I can address some inaccuracies in your statements.
Anytime a host runs a Rotation tournament they run the risk that an RLK shows up with cards that are not allowed. This would stink.

Quote
Classic cards are still legal for most tournaments.
Whether this is true or not for constructed categories is currently unknown. (The fact that classic cards will still be used in booster and sealed--where players are *not* buying from a retailer--is irrelevant to the question I asked.)

Tournament hosts cater to tournament players (quite understandably). Once a decision is made that only a certain format is going to be available at higher-level tournaments that format very quickly becomes the de-facto standard for the majority of tournaments (doubly so if you are only allowed to offer one format at a tournament). Can you think of any card game with a legacy and a standard format for which this is not the case?

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2021, 01:13:44 PM »
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It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.

Under what circumstance have you experienced players attending a tournament who are not already in communication with either the host or active players?

When I used to regularly host tournaments, the majority of local/district events I would run would have one or more players I had never met (or talked to) prior to the event. Granted that was back in the olden times when when there was a Redemption tournament every week in the Twin Cities.

Offline Lampy 2.0

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2021, 02:32:49 PM »
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Just for clarification because I am dumb:

Is the new format similar to Modern in Magic where only cards from I/J and later are allowed but nothing rotates out or will cards rotate out of the format when new sets drop?

Additionally, I understand that rotation can be a good thing and Redemption has a deep card pool available for the 25+ years its been around, but if this is going to be the standard for tournaments going forward, it doesn't feel right to me. Every major expansion from FooF onward distributes older cards with the new ones, and every time there are a lot more older  cards per set than new ones. If I open a standard booster, I might get four or five new cards depending on the set but the vast majority of cards in the packs were cards from Patriarchs, Apostles, Angel Wars and so on, just to name a few. It seems counter-intuitive to make a move like this if packs are going to be sold and only a third of the cards in them are even legal.

Also, please don't take this as me being angry or railing against Cactus. I still love the game and I'm willing to try out a new format.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2021, 03:08:20 PM »
+1
Just for clarification because I am dumb:

Is the new format similar to Modern in Magic where only cards from I/J and later are allowed but nothing rotates out or will cards rotate out of the format when new sets drop?

A new set being released will not rotate another set out of being legal in the Rotation format. That wouldn't work well with the way our game releases new cards. There might be another "rotation" again at some point, but that is several years away.

Additionally, I understand that rotation can be a good thing and Redemption has a deep card pool available for the 25+ years its been around, but if this is going to be the standard for tournaments going forward, it doesn't feel right to me. Every major expansion from FooF onward distributes older cards with the new ones, and every time there are a lot more older  cards per set than new ones. If I open a standard booster, I might get four or five new cards depending on the set but the vast majority of cards in the packs were cards from Patriarchs, Apostles, Angel Wars and so on, just to name a few. It seems counter-intuitive to make a move like this if packs are going to be sold and only a third of the cards in them are even legal.

I agree with this 100%! Last year LoC was also released in "Super Packs" which contained only LoC cards. I hope that GoC will do the same. We will continue to work with Cactus needs to try to get cards packaged so that only "new" cards are given in packs.
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Offline TheIrishman

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2021, 04:06:27 PM »
+3
- Instead of using Lost Souls to determine which player chooses who will play first, after all players have drawn the opening hand, players should use a random method (such as a coin flip or dice roll) to determine which player will choose who takes the first turn. The winner of the random method that is used will make the choice, which applies to all pre-game events including star abilities and activating lost souls.

- No official change is taking place at this time, but we want to give players advance noticed that we are thoroughly vetting an upcoming change to the Reserve that will restrict players from removing cards from any reserve for a set amount of time. We’ve tested the time frame of 3 rounds and 2 rounds. We are currently testing 1 round.

I really like these proposed changes!  Where Redemption is at right now, the ability to go first has too much of an impact on who wins (and I'm not referring to just the LaFS deck).  A lot of the top decks only need one turn to mostly (if not fully) setup.  If those decks can also manipulate their opening hand to almost guarantee starting first, what's the point of the opponent running counters?!  Obviously, this is a slight exaggeration because some counters will still be useful, but the point is that most of the damage those counters were trying to stop would have already been done by the time they have the change to hit the table.  The truly random first turn determination method definitely helps but I don't think its quite enough.  This is why I believe the proposed Reserve access change would significantly benefit the game.  This change has the same vibe as the previous change which I assume is no accident.  Restricting access to a location where players currently (and for good reason) put some of their best cards is another way of reducing the power of going first to a more reasonably level.  Regarding the duration of that restriction, I strongly believe it should last only 1 turn because any more would too seriously weaken the benefit of putting powerful cards in the Reserve. 

I like the potential implementation of these proposed changes not because they weaken decks that I deem to be too powerful but because are strategy focused and thus help prevent the exploitation of luck in a strategy card game.  These changes force players to ask questions when building their decks.  Can I afford to put this card in my Reserve and not have access to it for at least 1 turn?  Can I risk putting this card in my deck and not have a way to quickly search it out (or be restricted from doing so or punished for doing so?  This is what makes strategy games attractive.  The more thought you put into your deck the better you'll do.  A well thought out deck should never consistently lose to other well thought out decks solely because of turn order.  I strongly believe turn order should have the potential to give one deck an advantage over another, but that advantage should be surmountable.

And with that I step down from my soapbox having hopefully shared some insightful comments.

Offline MarshallMatters

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2021, 07:25:09 PM »
0
Just a quick question on logistics related to rotation...

Is Cactus going to stop selling the "classic" only cards or add a note on the store somewhere that these cards are not legal for most tournaments?

It would stink to be a host and have to tell a kid that the new cards he is so excited about are not legal.
I really favor having the choice between Classic and Rotation through States and Regionals for this reason.

I would also love to have a choice of going to a a classic tournament at states or regionals. I’ve really enjoyed getting to go to some more tournaments the past few years but most of my cards are old. It would be a bummer not to have a choice to play the cards I’ve played as a kid in current competitive play. New formate sounds fun but is it possible to leave the old one in place until I can slowly get all the new cards. It doesn’t see me to hurt anything to make it an option for a few years while trying to instate a new formate?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Follow Up to Rob's "Rotation" Announcement
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2021, 07:54:00 PM »
+2
I would also love to have a choice of going to a a classic tournament at states or regionals. I’ve really enjoyed getting to go to some more tournaments the past few years but most of my cards are old. It would be a bummer not to have a choice to play the cards I’ve played as a kid in current competitive play. New formate sounds fun but is it possible to leave the old one in place until I can slowly get all the new cards. It doesn’t see me to hurt anything to make it an option for a few years while trying to instate a new formate?

State and Regional tournaments don't normally happen until May, June and July. That's a minimum of 8 months away. We felt like that is giving players time to "slowly" get new cards. If enough players in your area would prefer to play Classic still at States or Regionals, then hopefully your host will be willing to run a side event to accommodate those players.
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