Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Online Gaming => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption® Online Official Tournament (ROOT) => Topic started by: Prof Underwood on October 25, 2011, 02:03:13 AM
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Please post here specifically with feedback regarding how the limitation of ONLY being able to have as many dominants as you have LSs in your deck (excluding Hopper) affected your games during the Nov/Dec ROOT :)
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I'm not sure if many people will see this until the next month of ROOT gets started, however, I'm curious what people think about this. Do you think that this rule change (at least for ROOT) will see a 57 card deck reach viability? With speed having slightly less emphasis, I feel that it might, and I'm currently playtesting a 50 card and 57 card deck using the new Dom Cap rule, with identical builds other than the additional seven cards for the latter, to see how they play out.
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The 50/57 thing came up several times when I posted my Genyptians deck for advice on reducing the doms to the cap. I think I ended up going with 50, but there were a lot of pros and cons for both sides and about as many people suggesting one as the other.
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Yeah. Honestly, right now, I'm thinking 57 might be the superior option. I foresee Falling Away and DoN (and probably Harvest Time) being the disputed "7th Dom", and having two of them would be an endless help (thus far I've been using FA, and I end up missing DoN a lot).
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Since I don't use Mayhem I've found that 7 is usually enough for me, lol (SoG, NJ, AotL, Grapes, DoN, FA, CM). I could see myself mulling over Harvest Time for non-Genesis decks, but otherwise the above seems to work nicely.
EDIT: Forgot that I use DoN instead of GoYS. Fixed.
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I've been using CM, FA, Mayhem, AotL, Grapes, SoG, and NJ.
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I don't play dom cap as of right now but I wouldn't play grapes and instead pack goys. maybe even skip mayhem.
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Grapes is, imo, the most versatile of all the doms. You can use it offensively, you can use it defensively, you can use it to mess with someone's strategy. I'd take a dominant I can use anytime over one that only works if I draw it before my opponent draws theirs.
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I don't play dom cap as of right now but I wouldn't play grapes and instead pack goys. maybe even skip mayhem.
Grapes > GoYS, easily; especially with the dom cap.
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I just dislike it due to the fact I prefer to have a strong card all round not a good at sometimes card that can be played In a million different situations.
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When the use of FA drops off quite a bit with the rule change for November ROOT, you will find that GoYS becomes one of the most useless doms in the game for ROOT.
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Since I don't use Mayhem I've found that 7 is usually enough for me
I think this is actually a problem. If the cap is at 7, then it really isn't too hard to cut out 3 doms and adding 3 cards to replace them doesn't really allow for a lot of creativity either. It is more likely that someone would just splash in a couple standalone defensive cards (Uzzah, etc.) or splash offense (Phineas + Zeal, etc.)
If the cap was at #LS/2 (rounded down), then this would actually get really interesting. 50-56 card decks would only be able to have 3 doms, and 57-63 card decks would be able to have 4 doms. Then you would really have some tough decisions about which doms to play. And that would leave a LOT of extra spots that you could really beef up an offense or defense with to include some fun variety.
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Let's not get too crazy here. 7 is an interesting experiment, not on what gets replaced, but what doms get cut. I've heard a lot of theory, but nothing really practical.
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I've heard a lot of theory, but nothing really practical.
That'll come starting next week when people actually start using some decks with this rule :)
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I might join in on the fun. However, there's still a lot of questions. I hear everyone's pulling GOYS, so FA becomes so much better.
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If the dom cap leads to players pulling GoYS, which leads to more play for FA, doesn't that actually help get at the "problem" of the power on NJ indirectly? You would need 6 rescues, not 5, so SoG/NJ is only 33.3% of your win requirement instead of 40%.
So maybe the problem dominant was GoYS all along. ;)
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I -do- enjoy M. Night Shaymalan.
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If the dom cap leads to players pulling GoYS, which leads to more play for FA, doesn't that actually help get at the "problem" of the power on NJ indirectly? You would need 6 rescues, not 5, so SoG/NJ is only 33.3% of your win requirement instead of 40%.
So maybe the problem dominant was GoYS all along. ;)
Everyone's saying they'll pull FA, so then everyone's also pulling GoYS. So why not keep FA?
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I never intended to pull FA, so I shouldn't have anything to worry about. ;)
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GoyS being the true problem Dom has actually been proposed before, and I think I agree with it. SoG is SoG, it doesn't need to be balanced. Burial balances Harvest Time. AotL is balanced by CM. Mayhem is broken, but it doesn't really do something that could be balanced by another Dom. Grapes can be used offensively or defensively so it's self-balancing. DoN is balanced by GotL kind of, but Artifacts are so strong it doesn't really need a good Dom balancing it. The only hiccup in the system is that FA balanced NJ before GoyS comes out, so now GoyS balances FA and NJ makes 2 unbalanced Doms. One is ok but 2 is clearly the root of a lot of the game's issues.
The other problem is that the advent of GoyS made not only itself, but FA speed-dependent. Every other Dom can be used whenever you have it barring protection (HT isn't usable when your opponent has souls, but its purpose is to generate souls so if it's not usable it's not needed, and DoN isn't usable when your opponent has no Arts active, but its purpose is to kill arts so if it's not usable it's not needed). FA and GoyS, on the other hand, are only useful if gotten before your opponent gets the other. I think that's an oft-overlooked but very important element. Without GoyS, no doms would be time-sensitive (other than in the normal way cards are time-sensitive) and there would be slightly less emphasis on drawing ALL the things.
Looks like I need to change my stance: NJ isn't the problem, GoyS is.
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I don't mean to sound like a hipster, but I've been saying all along that NJ isn't the heart of the problem, lol. I've taken the stance that defenses aren't powerful enough (or that offenses are too powerful), so GoYS blocking FA is part of what makes that the case. Take out GoYS and FA becomes significantly more useful for defense which takes away a little bit of the edge that offenses have.
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And it gives another guaranteed dom block. Woo! A lot of people have supported rescuing 6 LS instead of 5 (inb4smugT2players), and the removal of GoYS would allow that.
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Tbqh, I'm more interested to see how dom cap would affect multiplayer (where GoYS will inevitably continue to be a staple so the leader isn't 3x FA'd). I think the dom choices would be a lot harder to make there.
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Multi is more speed-centric than 2-player, so I doubt you would see ANY GoYS and FA with a more limited dom cap (D/2).
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I think Grapes will the the casualty in Multi.
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Well presented post Polarius. If GoYS was out of the equation, players would have to look to Lampstand + Temple for FA protection. There are enough counters to take out that combination that it would work out nicely if that were the only FA protection.
Kirk
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Don't believe there were any "dom cap issues" in my root game w/pol. It was just a beatdown.
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It's hard to leave feedback on this while the tournament is ongoing because I don't want to give away mine or my opponent's decks (even just knowing which dominants we have would be a sizable advantage for our future opponents).
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I didn't notice any "dom cap" issues in my game tonight.
It's hard to leave feedback on this while the tournament is ongoing because I don't want to give away mine or my opponent's decks
I don't want anyone giving anyone else's deck away. If you can't give feedback until the end of the month, that's OK. Please write it down somewhere though so that you won't forget it later :)
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Don't believe there were any obvious "dom cap issues" in my root game w/Red.
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Dom cap didn't really matter in my game with Slug. I don't think it's betraying any secret to say that his deck was so huge he could have had more doms than actually exist :p
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Tis no secret, but common knowledge! :-X
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Didn't matter in my second ROOT game either. I can build decks that function just fine with 7 or 8 Doms. I almost hope I'll play a speed deck at some point and see how that fares with only 7 of the 11.
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I have a speed deck that I only had to remove 1 dominant from for the dom cap, and it hasn't seemed to affect much. If you don't stuff your decks full of doms to begin with 1)you can build speed decks easier (less cards to remove to get to 50, and 2) you aren't so reliant on them which makes your deck that much stronger.
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May have made a differnece. Game may have been shorter. If I had more dominats my strategy would have been different. Its kinda hard to mention specifica without revealing which doms were played
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I found that I dropped Mayhem from my Deck. I forsee that GoYS will probally leave decks making FA better. I think that it would make Mayhem less used as well, not to mention HT. I actually perfer not having a limit (mostly because I have a hard time to put very many doms in my deck)
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Over all I like the idea of dom cap. If possible implement it.
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I found that I would have liked to have my other Doms in my Deck there.
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I don't really like it. If you are not going to ban cards why restrict players from playing said cards?
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I don't really like it. If you are not going to ban cards why restrict players from playing said cards?
That's what I've wanted to say all along...
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I don't really like it. If you are not going to ban cards why restrict players from playing said cards?
We already restrict sites anyway.
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I don't really like it. If you are not going to ban cards why restrict players from playing said cards?
We already restrict sites anyway.
And lost souls
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I don't really like it. If you are not going to ban cards why restrict players from playing said cards?
We already restrict sites anyway.
And lost souls
So why not doms, there the most powerful.
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this has to happen SPEED MUST DIE PERIOD
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this has to happen SPEED MUST DIE PERIOD
Speed won' t die from this.
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I'll attempt to kill speed, because I feel like no one else is trying to do so.*
* Edited to help get your message across since people ignore all caps. Try to keep the caps lock off Matt.
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I don't really like it. If you are not going to ban cards why restrict players from playing said cards?
We already restrict sites anyway.
Basically I am saying restrictions (and I am obviously talking about restrictions on cards or concepts that would not otherwise break the game like the site rule) are pointless unless you are going to fix the root of the problem but if banning is out of the question then the fewer restrictions the better. Make sense?
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I'll attempt to kill speed, because I feel like no one else is trying to do so.*
* Edited to help get your message across since people ignore all caps. Try to keep the caps lock off Matt.
Andrew Wester (Ring Wraith), and Alex O both played last year with anti-speed decks (and Wraith pulled off third at nats).
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I'll attempt to kill speed, because I feel like no one else is trying to do so.*
* Edited to help get your message across since people ignore all caps. Try to keep the caps lock off Matt.
Andrew Wester (Ring Wraith), and Alex O both played last year with anti-speed decks (and Wraith pulled off third at nats).
They were anti-meta, not anti-speed. The basic premise was to be able to stop them even after they won the battle. However, it wouldn't have worked against Tim (hence why I played Disciples against him), and it didn't work against John, who had the fastest deck of the day.
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Nesfeder or Early?
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RDT.
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still just to be clear we have to impliment this rule for the sanity of the game period
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still just to be clear we have to impliment this rule for the sanity of the game period
How do you think this will change the meta from speed? What will people use instead of the current speed decks?
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less doms means less chance of goys and falling away cause if they use those then they can have all the other main doms in a 56 card deck and don't spit 57 at me cause the ls ratio of 8 to 57 makes it a horrible idea period.
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I don't know if Dom Cap will stop speed, but it will make people think about what they will replace those doms with, and I personally think that is a great idea. Also, I agree a 57 card deck is ridiculous in concept.
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dom cap must happen period
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less doms means less chance of goys and falling away cause if they use those then they can have all the other main doms in a 56 card deck and don't spit 57 at me cause the ls ratio of 8 to 57 makes it a horrible idea period.
I think that most speed decks will be closer to 50 cards. What deck archetype will replace speed?
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None. Speed works with the dom cap.
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doesn't matter stop fighting it we need this dom cap SPEED MUST DIE 10 MINUTE GAMES ARE FOR IDIOTS
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I'm not fighting it. Of all the new proposed rules this season, I like this one the best (and it's the only one that has my support). However, I don't see how it'll stop speed. You seem to think it'll stop speed. What is your reasoning for that conclusion?
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doesn't matter stop fighting it we need this dom cap SPEED MUST DIE 10 MINUTE GAMES ARE FOR IDIOTS
Why don't you stop fighting?
I don't oppose the dom cap. I like it. But realize it doesn't kill speed.
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ok i just was getting defensive cause i thought you 2 were against in and i was gonna flip
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I'm not fully for it. I think that it makes a lot more sense than Opp's LS Only, etc. But I think speed will still dominate. Why do you think otherwise?
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Speed will definately still dominate. Until decking out has a game rule penalty, speed will always be the ideal deck.
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Speed will definately still dominate. Until decking out has a game rule penalty, speed will always be the ideal deck.
So far three cards have been created that key on shrinking deck size, and all are good cards (Convincing Miracle, Dodai, Thankful Leper). Some evil cards need to be created along the same lines in order to stop speed from laughing.
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Shameless plug (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/new-card-ideas/card-browarod-inspired/)
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Speed will still dominate, but it narrows the gaps between speed, balanced, and defensive heavy.
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doesn't matter stop fighting it we need this dom cap SPEED MUST DIE 10 MINUTE GAMES ARE FOR IDIOTS
I play speed and ten minute games hardly ever happen bro. KTHNXBAI
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doesn't matter stop fighting it we need this dom cap SPEED MUST DIE 10 MINUTE GAMES ARE FOR IDIOTS
I play speed and ten minute games hardly ever happen bro. KTHNXBAI
I try to tell him that, but he just doesn't listen....
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Dom cap didn't affect me in my games, but I play T2 sized decks so that might be a reason. :P
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I liked it. I don't think it hurts big decks, and could hurt speed decks, so lets do it.
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It would hurt my non-speed Prophets deck (56 cards, 10 doms) more than my non-dom cap speed deck (50 cards, 8 doms). This is not a good thing.
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Once again another rule that does not accomplish it's purpose. Cactus needs to man up and ban Mayhem. Or enact a rule that phohibits dominants from being played in the first round of play.
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Once again another rule that does not accomplish it's purpose. Cactus needs to man up and ban Mayhem. Or enact a rule that phohibits dominants from being played in the first round of play.
Handicapping Mayhem wasn't this rules purpose.
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The only thing that needs to be done is handicapping mayhem. If this rules purpose was to generate creativity it failed miserably.
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The only thing that needs to be done is handicapping mayhem. If this rules purpose was to generate creativity it failed miserably.
The purpose was to hurt decks that just thoughtlessly stuff in 10+ and profit because Doms are so OP. If anything, this is a compromise to straight banning the majority of dominants. Realistically, if you want to balance the game, you need to ban every dominant except Harvest Time, Glory of the Lord, and Doubt. But that's not going to happen, so we have this rule which semi-balances it by forcing small decks to have less dominants.
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The only thing that needs to be done is handicapping mayhem. If this rules purpose was to generate creativity it failed miserably.
The purpose was to hurt decks that just thoughtlessly stuff in 10+ and profit because Doms are so OP. If anything, this is a compromise to straight banning the majority of dominants. Realistically, if you want to balance the game, you need to ban every dominant except Harvest Time, Glory of the Lord, and Doubt. But that's not going to happen, so we have this rule which semi-balances it by forcing small decks to have less dominants.
+1
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Other than my initial thoughts and theories before this section of ROOT got started, I've kept relatively quiet about the rule. Now that ROOT has wrapped up for November/December, I'd like to share my thoughts. First off, the Dom Cap was never really proposed to hit speed (or, if it was, that was misguided, and isn't the focal point of the discussion on the rule right now). Will it reduce speed? Slightly. Guardian will see a lot less use in decks, and Falling Away might also see a bit of a hit, depending on how it goes. For the first four weeks of ROOT, I used Destruction of Nehushtan as my seventh dom, which accompanied SoG, NJ, CM, AotL, Grapes, and Mayhem. The biggest complaint I had with this set up was that, though DoN was certainly nice, I missed Falling Away more than I appreciated DoN. For the last game, I switched DoN out for FA, and it ended up netting me a 5-0 win, as opposed to the 5-1 I'd have had otherwise (not a big difference, but until Kirk won against Pol, the possibility that differential would decide the winner was a big one). All in all, that's the biggest choice I have to make, and I question the deck-building ability of anyone who isn't selecting those six, leaving that last one up for a harder decision.
As far as my actual opinion of the rule, I am all for it, for a couple reasons. First off, during an actual game, the intensity of the game from the beginning is slightly more than it would be otherwise, due to the slightly additional unknown factors. If we're down to the end of the game and I want to activate Chariot (or some other artifact) is it going to get hit by DoN? What if I bring down my Lampstand? Is one of my souls going to get hit by FA? Questions like these make the game more fun in my opinion, and they offer an additional unknown factor while reducing the degree of risk. The question is no longer "do they have them in hand?" it's "do they have them at all?" The occasional Harvest Time that I encounter, or even a Burial, is also a plus, if people think they can get away with not having Mayhem or maybe Grapes. I also love the rule because it gives slightly more freedom in deck building, and encourages the use of slightly larger defenses. I've had more fun in deck building for this rule than I've ever had before, because there's a lot more freedom involved in the selection process. Cards that take up more space but offer up an (arguably) higher reward, like Captured Ark, can finally see more play from people who might not have otherwise added it.
One thing I'd look forward to, should this rule get implemented, is the slight meta shift that will occur. I specifically used NT and Z Temple decks for three weeks (2 weeks for the former, 1 for the latter) because I wanted Lampstand so I wouldn't feel like I need to use as many evil doms. Such a decision will like resonate within the meta, and it will be nice to see a few less Sam and Genesis decks.
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Other than my initial thoughts and theories before this section of ROOT got started, I've kept relatively quiet about the rule. Now that ROOT has wrapped up for November/December, I'd like to share my thoughts. First off, the Dom Cap was never really proposed to hit speed (or, if it was, that was misguided, and isn't the focal point of the discussion on the rule right now). Will it reduce speed? Slightly. Guardian will see a lot less use in decks, and Falling Away might also see a bit of a hit, depending on how it goes. For the first four weeks of ROOT, I used Destruction of Nehushtan as my seventh dom, which accompanied SoG, NJ, CM, AotL, Grapes, and Mayhem. The biggest complaint I had with this set up was that, though DoN was certainly nice, I missed Falling Away more than I appreciated DoN. For the last game, I switched DoN out for FA, and it ended up netting me a 5-0 win, as opposed to the 5-1 I'd have had otherwise (not a big difference, but until Kirk won against Pol, the possibility that differential would decide the winner was a big one). All in all, that's the biggest choice I have to make, and I question the deck-building ability of anyone who isn't selecting those six, leaving that last one up for a harder decision.
As far as my actual opinion of the rule, I am all for it, for a couple reasons. First off, during an actual game, the intensity of the game from the beginning is slightly more than it would be otherwise, due to the slightly additional unknown factors. If we're down to the end of the game and I want to activate Chariot (or some other artifact) is it going to get hit by DoN? What if I bring down my Lampstand? Is one of my souls going to get hit by FA? Questions like these make the game more fun in my opinion, and they offer an additional unknown factor while reducing the degree of risk. The question is no longer "do they have them in hand?" it's "do they have them at all?" The occasional Harvest Time that I encounter, or even a Burial, is also a plus, if people think they can get away with not having Mayhem or maybe Grapes. I also love the rule because it gives slightly more freedom in deck building, and encourages the use of slightly larger defenses. I've had more fun in deck building for this rule than I've ever had before, because there's a lot more freedom involved in the selection process. Cards that take up more space but offer up an (arguably) higher reward, like Captured Ark, can finally see more play from people who might not have otherwise added it.
One thing I'd look forward to, should this rule get implemented, is the slight meta shift that will occur. I specifically used NT and Z Temple decks for three weeks (2 weeks for the former, 1 for the latter) because I wanted Lampstand so I wouldn't feel like I need to use as many evil doms. Such a decision will like resonate within the meta, and it will be nice to see a few less Sam and Genesis decks.
I think that FA will be the best card for your money (but this is coming from a speed player)
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The Dom cap got me to put my deck to 63 (from 56)
Personally, I don't like the rule that much.
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The Dom cap got me to put my deck to 63 (from 56)
Personally, I don't like the rule that much.
Why not? I've seen a lot of people make comments that they don't like the rule, but I've never seen anyone given a reasoned argument for why it's a bad idea that shouldn't be implemented. Personal preference is all well and good, but I've given several arguments for why I'm in favor of it.
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Dominant cap forced to drop from 9 to 8 dominants and run a 57 card deck. I decided to run SoG, NJ, Grapes, AotL, GoYS, CM, DoN, Mayhem.
Without Burial in the deck I really didn't want to deal with rescuing a 2-line and having it FA'd so I used GoYS.
Overall I don't think the dominant cap had much of an effect on my games. There were a few times where my opponent may have had the opportunity to play Harvest Time in a regular deck but I may have had a Burial in those same instances.
More of my opponents used FA than GoYS. I think that would be good for the game if the dominant cap kept some players from using GoYS and forcing them to go the Lampstand route once again.
Kirk
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i agree with kirk
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The main reason that I don't want dom cap is the same reason chronic wants it. Players should be forced to play around doms instead of having to worry if it's there or not. Dom cap would force me to alter my playing style of playing around doms and I don't want that.
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The main reason that I don't want dom cap is the same reason chronic wants it. Players should be forced to play around doms instead of having to worry if it's there or not. Dom cap would force me to alter my playing style of playing around doms and I don't want that.
lol. Please stop complaining about Mayhem if you actually think this. Play around it.
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I personally think the dom cap is a good idea. I have lost too many games because my opponent was able to get the latest and greatest in doms (grapes, mayhem) before I, a poor man in redemption, was able to trade for them. I still don't have either of those doms. The rule would also force people too put a little more thought in a deck, instead of just throw a truck lode of doms in the deck and then drawing them fast.
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The main reason that I don't want dom cap is the same reason chronic wants it. Players should be forced to play around doms instead of having to worry if it's there or not. Dom cap would force me to alter my playing style of playing around doms and I don't want that.
lol. Please stop complaining about Mayhem if you actually think this. Play around it.
Kind of impossible when it hits you T1 yknow. screws your deck over maybe?
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The main reason that I don't want dom cap is the same reason chronic wants it. Players should be forced to play around doms instead of having to worry if it's there or not. Dom cap would force me to alter my playing style of playing around doms and I don't want that.
lol. Please stop complaining about Mayhem if you actually think this. Play around it.
Kind of impossible when it hits you T1 yknow. screws your deck over maybe?
Please have some consistantcy in your thoughts. "Play around doms" "You can't play around doms". Which is it?
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The main reason that I don't want dom cap is the same reason chronic wants it. Players should be forced to play around doms instead of having to worry if it's there or not. Dom cap would force me to alter my playing style of playing around doms and I don't want that.
lol. Please stop complaining about Mayhem if you actually think this. Play around it.
Kind of impossible when it hits you T1 yknow. screws your deck over maybe?
Please have some consistantcy in your thoughts. "Play around doms" "You can't play around doms". Which is it?
Well you can't play around that dom. most others can be.
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You can play around Mayhem. Drop anything in your hand you can whenever you can.
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You can play around Mayhem. Drop anything in your hand you can whenever you can.
The problem is I can't drop it when it hits me first turn and I haven't even had a single turn...
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You can play around Mayhem. Drop anything in your hand you can whenever you can.
The problem is I can't drop it when it hits me first turn and I haven't even had a single turn...
Sounds like Mayhem isn't the problem, but rather, first turn Mayhem, which is incredibly differently and not ban worthy.
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Mayhem does not even hurt my deck. I actually kind of like it when my opponent uses Mayhem, It mixes his hand up and that makes it easier to attack for a lost soul. ;)
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Mayhem does not even hurt my deck. I actually kind of like it when my opponent uses Mayhem, It mixes his hand up and that makes it easier to attack for a lost soul. ;)
A Mayhem on the first turn will hurt any deck, regardless. Though it's entirely possible to have a deck with a low hand size (zeb, etc) that benefits from Mayhem. (Plus, your Abom triggers off of that)
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Mayhem does not even hurt my deck. I actually kind of like it when my opponent uses Mayhem, It mixes his hand up and that makes it easier to attack for a lost soul. ;)
A Mayhem on the first turn will hurt any deck, regardless. Though it's entirely possible to have a deck with a low hand size (zeb, etc) that benefits from Mayhem. (Plus, your Abom triggers off of that)
I've never had any issues with Mayhem being played against me, whether first turn or not. (*crosses fingers*)
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Yeah, good luck with that. If it weren't for a FTM, I would have placed a bit higher at Nats.
/Though if it weren't for other FTM's, I would have placed lower. Guess that's how it works.
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I was able to play my FA during most of my games. Being able to play FA helps to balance out NJ. Having less doms makes the game more challenging.