Author Topic: Things I learned at Nats 2018  (Read 1204 times)

Offline Noah

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Things I learned at Nats 2018
« on: August 08, 2018, 06:54:15 PM »
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Josh's post about Ends vs ongoing protection of souls was something that I never thought about before, but makes perfect sense, so I thought I would post some things that I learned this Nats that I hadn't realized before. Hopefully this encourages others to think about what they learned at Nats, or maybe learn a thing or two from my experience.

1) I thought that the third condition for what "Interrupt the battle" abilities targeted was "The last card played in battle by an opponent", but they actually target "The last card played in battle IF it was played by an opponent".

2) In Teams, you share Dominants that are in play, but because The Holy Spirit and Three Woes have the condition "Place in Territory:" they only activate for the player that placed them.

EDIT: Looks like I'm still learning stuff after Nats as well.
Quote
I kept thinking about that one, and did go back and update the players in the game (but not my fellow judges - sorry) that they do dual activate. They are shared, so they technically exist in both territories.

3) With the starter decks, if my opponent plays a battle winner, then I play a "negate last" enhancement, and then my opponent plays a "negate last" enhancement, I can't play another "negate last" enhancement because my negate has to target the card causing the removal.

4) If one character is ignoring another character, the character doing the ignoring can't target the ignored character.

This last one is more of something I learned as a player than a ruling, but I think it is important,

5) I need to do a better job of knowing exactly what to search for/rescue with in T2-2P because I timed out all 5 of my games. Only 12 of the 30 total T2-2P games that were played didn't time out.

Also, I realized that the two biggest mistakes I tend to make are,

A) Missing optional triggers, and

B) Missing active ongoing abilities.

I have thought of purchasing two sets of different colored glass tokens to use to denote cards with triggers that I control with one color, and cards with ongoing abilities that I control with another. Hopefully that will help me not miss things.

Thinking back over what I learned this past week makes me want to teach others how to play and have a better understanding of the rules myself. I hope it does the same for you.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 08:05:27 PM by Noah »
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2018, 07:06:59 PM »
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3) With the starter decks, if my opponent plays a battle winner, then I play a "negate last" enhancement, and then my opponent plays a "negate last" enhancement, I can't play another "negate last" enhancement because my negate has to target the card causing the removal.
Just to clarify... this only works in the case of negate last enhancements and not normal negate enhancement abilities, correct?

This ruling seems a little silly to me... one of those cases where card text is being taken too literally. I'm not sure if that was the original intention with the "negate last" ability. This reminds me of how for a long time Split Alter didn't work due to how it was worded.

Then again I'm always all there for card games having clear and concise rulings, especially concise wording, on cards! :P
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 07:09:55 PM by Isildur »
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Offline NathanW

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2018, 07:14:11 PM »
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3) With the starter decks, if my opponent plays a battle winner, then I play a "negate last" enhancement, and then my opponent plays a "negate last" enhancement, I can't play another "negate last" enhancement because my negate has to target the card causing the removal.
Just to clarify... this only works in the case of negate last enhancements, correct?

This ruling seems a little silly to me... one of those cases where card text is being taken to literally. I'm not sure if that was the original intention with the "negate last" ability. Then again I'm always all there for card games having clear and concise rulings, especially concise wording, on cards! :P

Since you have special initiative to negate the card that is removing your character from battle you can only negate that card. Playing a "negate the last" card would not be possible because it would only indirectly negate the card that is giving you special initiative. (In the case where your opponent plays a battle winner, you negate it and they negate your negate and you try to play a "negate the last" card.)

Quote from: REG
Special Initiative
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and a completing effect of an opponent’s
ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an effect of an opponent’s ability, would
leave that player with no character in battle when the effect has completed, they have Special
Initiative.

When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal and additional abilities or effects
waiting to activate (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with their
character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or
negate both the effect causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule)
and the ability containing that effect.
If the card with the removing effect was already
removed from play due to one of its effects, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative
by an Enhancement that specifically targets its card type.

This only occurs once per completion of an effect of an opponent’s ability. If a removing
effect is negated (or cannot reactivate after an interrupt effect is played) and the negate (or
interrupt effect that prevented reactivation) is later undone such that the original removing
effect reactivates, this would trigger a separate instance of Special Initiative.

I think the wording "negate the last" was originally intended to simplify starter deck gameplay.
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Online RedemptionAggie

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2018, 07:56:48 PM »
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2) In Teams, you share Dominants that are in play, but because The Holy Spirit and Three Woes have the condition "Place in Territory:" they only activate for the player that placed them.

I kept thinking about that one, and did go back and update the players in the game (but not my fellow judges - sorry) that they do dual activate. They are shared, so they technically exist in both territories.

I'm less sure about Glory, since it's placed on "your" Tabernacle or ST, and protects "your" Temple Arts from opponents, and shared control doesn't mean shared ownership.

I think the wording "negate the last" was originally intended to simplify starter deck gameplay.

I talked to Gabe about that after one of his games - when the starters were printed, the triple negate scenario was legal, but the definition of SI has changed since then.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2018, 07:59:26 PM »
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2) In Teams, you share Dominants that are in play, but because The Holy Spirit and Three Woes have the condition "Place in Territory:" they only activate for the player that placed them.

I kept thinking about that one, and did go back and update the players in the game (but not my fellow judges - sorry) that they do dual activate. They are shared, so they technically exist in both territories.

I'm less sure about Glory, since it's placed on "your" Tabernacle or ST, and protects "your" Temple Arts from opponents, and shared control doesn't mean shared ownership.

Quote
Teammates share a common area of play and card types. These include Land of Bondage, Land of Redemption, Dominants and Fortress cards. The rest of the cards are unique to each player (Heroes, Evil Characters, artifact pile, draw pile, discard pile, hand) and are treated like a standard Type 1 game. Cards that reside in a shared area or on a shared card are also shared.

Glory of the Lord is shared also, at least that was the intention when the above quoted portion of the host guide was written. The last sentence is what I expect covers GotL.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 12:44:17 AM »
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Since you have special initiative to negate the card that is removing your character from battle you can only negate that card. Playing a "negate the last" card would not be possible because it would only indirectly negate the card that is giving you special initiative. (In the case where your opponent plays a battle winner, you negate it and they negate your negate and you try to play a "negate the last" card.)
Quote from: REG
Special Initiative
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and a completing effect of an opponent’s
ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an effect of an opponent’s ability, would
leave that player with no character in battle when the effect has completed, they have Special
Initiative.

When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal and additional abilities or effects
waiting to activate (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with their
character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or
negate both the effect causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule)
and the ability containing that effect.
If the card with the removing effect was already
removed from play due to one of its effects, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative
by an Enhancement that specifically targets its card type.

This only occurs once per completion of an effect of an opponent’s ability. If a removing
effect is negated (or cannot reactivate after an interrupt effect is played) and the negate (or
interrupt effect that prevented reactivation) is later undone such that the original removing
effect reactivates, this would trigger a separate instance of Special Initiative.

I think the wording "negate the last" was originally intended to simplify starter deck gameplay.
I agree with everything you said! I actually think it makes a lot of sense even though it's a little silly.

Just to play the other side of the table...

If I'm not mistaken the 4th Edition starters have a reduced version of the rules with direction to the REG, right? Is that definition of Special Initiative in the rule book included?

If that definition of Special Initiative is not in the rules included I doubt any new player would be playing the mentioned scenario properly.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 12:49:40 PM »
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I would think that because Glory says "your" Tabernacle or Solomon's Temple then you wouldn't be able to play it on your teammate's owned Tabernacle since you don't own it. However, once it's placed in your territory, more specifically on your fortress, then it's read from the perspective of both players, thereby protecting the fortress and both players' artifacts.
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Offline redemption collector 777

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Re: Things I learned at Nats 2018
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 12:43:49 PM »
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interesting.