Author Topic: Teams deck building question  (Read 4831 times)

Offline Cnakeeyes

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Teams deck building question
« on: June 26, 2019, 08:14:55 PM »
+1
Can both teams decks have a Hopper soul in it?

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2019, 11:21:38 PM »
+1
Yes

Offline Gabe

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2019, 07:34:30 AM »
0
In the past you could but I don’t think so anymore since teams decks cannot contain the same Lost Souls. I could see Hopper being an exception since it doesn’t count for your deck building Souls but I don’t recall us making that distinction.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2019, 08:58:59 AM »
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I would think that because since you can include Hopper in Reserve then being able to have one in both decks would also fall under not counting for deck building rules.

Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2019, 10:50:39 AM »
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In the past you could but I don’t think so anymore since teams decks cannot contain the same Lost Souls. I could see Hopper being an exception since it doesn’t count for your deck building Souls but I don’t recall us making that distinction.

As of Rules Update on Dec. 25, 2018 this is what I found - "Dominants and Lost Souls are unique per TEAM. To help facilitate this TEAMS will only be allowed to check in 1 deck per player and will need to check them in simultaneously. This will impact the use of New Jerusalem & The Second Coming as well as Son of God and Chariot of Fire as only one deck will be able to contain one card from each pair."

Since the Hopper is a Lost Soul, per this rule update, only one can used. That being said, I can see a reasonable argument being put forward to allow a Hopper in each teammates deck for the reasons stated by TheJaylor.

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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2019, 11:21:23 AM »
+2
I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2019, 11:57:50 AM »
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I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

While I see both sides, this is how I would rule as well if it were up to me.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2019, 12:51:08 PM »
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I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.
That's just crazy talk.  ;)

Offline Kor

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2019, 01:20:37 PM »
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I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

While I see both sides, this is how I would rule as well if it were up to me.

I mean by this logic I can have 100 in my T2 deck as it isn’t restricted by anything other than ‘2 LS with SA’
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2019, 01:31:25 PM »
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I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

While I see both sides, this is how I would rule as well if it were up to me.

I mean by this logic I can have 100 in my T2 deck as it isn’t restricted by anything other than ‘2 LS with SA’

That should be clarified under cards that don’t count as anything then.

 ;D

TheHobbit13

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2019, 01:53:42 PM »
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Hopper was made before TEAMS was even a plausible category. Therefore it is absurd to apply the identifier on an old card to a new, top-down rule. Hopper should be one per deck.

Offline goalieking87

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2019, 01:58:22 PM »
+1
I guess we should ban Hopper - then all of our problems will be solved.  ;)

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2019, 02:04:37 PM »
+2
I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

While I see both sides, this is how I would rule as well if it were up to me.

I mean by this logic I can have 100 in my T2 deck as it isn’t restricted by anything other than ‘2 LS with SA’
What?  Why wouldn't it be covered under:

Type I : Maximum of 1 of each per 50 cards in a deck: Card that has a special ability (text over the picture).

Type II: A deck may contain no more than four (4) of any card.

Call me crazy, but the Hopper would still count as a "card" even if it is not counted as a "Lost Soul" for deck building purposes.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 02:06:43 PM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline Kor

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2019, 02:12:39 PM »
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I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

While I see both sides, this is how I would rule as well if it were up to me.

I mean by this logic I can have 100 in my T2 deck as it isn’t restricted by anything other than ‘2 LS with SA’
What?  Why wouldn't it be covered under:

Type I : Maximum of 1 of each per 50 cards in a deck: Card that has a special ability (text over the picture).

Type II: A deck may contain no more than four (4) of any card.

Call me crazy, but the Hopper would still count as a "card" even if it is not counted as a "Lost Soul" for deck building purposes.


I don’t see that in my reg:

Quote

TYPE II Deck Building Rules

Your deck must contain a minimum of one hundred (100) cards. Fourteen of these must be Lost Soul cards. When you are building larger decks, one Lost Soul must accompany every six cards beyond one hundred five (105).

Maximum of 1 of each in a deck:

• Cards with 3 or more brigades at face value.

• Dominant (lamb icon or grim reaper icon card).

Maximum of 2 of each in a deck:

• Cards with 2 brigades at face value.

• Lost Souls with a special ability.

• Any single-brigade Site with a special ability.

Maximum of 3 of each in a deck:

• Any Artifact, Fortress, Covenant or Curse with one brigade at face value.

Maximum of 4 of each in a deck:

• Any character, Enhancement or non-special ability Site with one brigade at face value.

Other Rules:

• The number of your good cards and the number of your evil cards MUST be equal.

Dual-alignment cards count as evil/neutral/good based on their face-value alignment (I.E. Saul/Paul (Ap) is an evil card at face value and counts as evil for deck building purposes). If a dual-alignment card is different alignments at face-value it counts as all of those alignments for deck building purposes. If neutral is one of the alignments the card counts as good and/or evil based on the other alignment(s).

• The number of Sites may not exceed the number of Lost Souls in a deck.

• The number of Dominants (good and evil combined) may not exceed the number of Lost Souls in a deck. (The Lost Souls card counts as 1 (one) Lost Soul and the “Hopper” Lost Soul does not count towards Lost Soul deck building requirements).

• The max size for a T2 deck is 252.

Is that not the current version?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 02:43:32 PM by Kor »
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Offline jesse

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2019, 02:20:11 PM »
+1
It would be awesome if we could have 4 Hoppers in T2!
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2019, 03:36:37 PM »
+1
Type II: A deck may contain no more than four (4) of any card.


I don’t see that in my reg:

Quote

TYPE II Deck Building Rules

Maximum of 4 of each in a deck:

• Any character, Enhancement or non-special ability Site with one brigade at face value.

Is that not the current version?
Yes, you are correct. I was going from a earlier version (I point to this to show I am not making it up). When did they change the wording? More importantly why did they change the wording?

Offline Josh

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2019, 04:05:46 PM »
+1
I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

If Hopper was protected from (see what I did there?) literally ALL deck-building requirements, then you could literally put any number of Hoppers in a deck.

It might not be subject to the deck-building rule specifically for LS, but it's still subject to Teams deck-building rules, which only allow 1 copy of each LS and Dom.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2019, 04:56:27 PM »
+1
I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

If Hopper was protected from (see what I did there?) literally ALL deck-building requirements, then you could literally put any number of Hoppers in a deck.

It might not be subject to the deck-building rule specifically for LS, but it's still subject to Teams deck-building rules, which only allow 1 copy of each LS and Dom.

But allowing only 1 copy of each Lost Soul IS a deck building rule that applies specifically to lost souls.  And since Hopper ‘does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules’ that definitely sounds like a rule that doesn’t apply to it.  Any rules that apply to cards in general, or cards with a special ability would still apply to Hopper. 

If this is unintended or even unwanted that’s fine, but I think a bit more clarity in that section of the rules would be nice  :)
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2019, 07:56:15 PM »
+2
I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

Because the identifier is "Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules" and not "Is not a Lost Soul for deck building rules", there's an argument the identifier only applies to rules that count LS (total cards, Doms, Sites), not all of the deck building rules. That interpretation does mean that Hopper can't start in the Reserve.

Since the TEAMs deck building rule isn't counting LS, there couldn't be a Hopper in both decks under that interpretation.

Offline goalieking87

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2019, 09:17:17 PM »
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I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

Because the identifier is "Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules" and not "Is not a Lost Soul for deck building rules", there's an argument the identifier only applies to rules that count LS (total cards, Doms, Sites), not all of the deck building rules. That interpretation does mean that Hopper can't start in the Reserve.

Since the TEAMs deck building rule isn't counting LS, there couldn't be a Hopper in both decks under that interpretation.

So are we ruling that Hopper cannot start in Reserve now?

Offline Kor

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2019, 09:54:28 PM »
+1
I would think that since the identifier on Hopper says “Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules” that it does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules.

Because the identifier is "Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules" and not "Is not a Lost Soul for deck building rules", there's an argument the identifier only applies to rules that count LS (total cards, Doms, Sites), not all of the deck building rules. That interpretation does mean that Hopper can't start in the Reserve.

Since the TEAMs deck building rule isn't counting LS, there couldn't be a Hopper in both decks under that interpretation.

So are we ruling that Hopper cannot start in Reserve now?

Since you asked (from the REG):

Quote
Reserve:
• The reserve cannot contain Dominants or Lost Soul cards (the “Hopper” Lost Soul does
not count towards Lost Soul deck building requirements
and may be included in the
reserve).
• Your deck + reserve must be a legal deck (ignoring Lost Soul to deck ratio rule as it
applies to cards in the reserve). The reserve must contain between 0-10 cards.
• Your deck and reserve must be reset to their original state after each game.

It seems that if one were to argue that Hopper's identifier only applies to rules that count LS, the REG at least already implies the contrary argument: that it is able to start in reserve because of its identifier.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 10:00:26 PM by Kor »
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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2019, 07:53:43 AM »
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We all get that the REG contradicts itself.  Interpretation is the key word in Aggie's post.

Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2019, 07:04:44 PM »
-1
Has this been ruled yet? All I can see is people say it depends on how you read it. It would be nice to know 100% with regionals and nats coming up.

Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2019, 05:34:33 PM »
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Still waiting on a 100% answer for this. Regionals is this weekend over here and I would like to know if both decks can have a Hopper or not.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2019, 07:29:16 PM »
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Obviously there are some contradicting conclusions that can be drawn from different REG entries due to the uniqueness of the Hopper LS. With the change to the rules for dominants and Lost Souls in TEAMS, we did not realize how Hopper would be affected.

The Elder team will discuss in the next day or two, and it's likely we will need to make a special ruling until the post-Nationals REG update.

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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2019, 07:33:23 PM »
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Obviously there are some contradicting conclusions that can be drawn from different REG entries due to the uniqueness of the Hopper LS. With the change to the rules for dominants and Lost Souls in TEAMS, we did not realize how Hopper would be affected.

The Elder team will discuss in the next day or two, and it's likely we will need to make a special ruling until the post-Nationals REG update.

Ok. Thank you.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2019, 08:26:23 PM »
+1
We've discussed the Hopper and agreed the the identifier "Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules." excludes it from normal deck building rules. That will continue to allow it to be in the Reserve (unlike other Lost Souls) and allow it to be in both teammates deck for Teams.

The four elders involved in the discussion all agreed and you can consider this official.
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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2019, 08:37:36 PM »
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We've discussed the Hopper and agreed the the identifier "Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules." excludes it from normal deck building rules. That will continue to allow it to be in the Reserve (unlike other Lost Souls) and allow it to be in both teammates deck for Teams.

The four elders involved in the discussion all agreed and you can consider this official.
Ok. Thank you Gabe, Justin, and the other elders involved.

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2019, 09:18:12 PM »
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We've discussed the Hopper and agreed the the identifier "Does not count as a Lost Soul for deck building rules." excludes it from normal deck building rules. That will continue to allow it to be in the Reserve (unlike other Lost Souls) and allow it to be in both teammates deck for Teams.
So I can have any number of Hoppers in a Type II deck?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2019, 09:26:32 PM »
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When your playing with your friends outside tournaments, yes.  ;)

I believe the difference between deck building rules (card counts for example) and LS rules was already mention.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Teams deck building question
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2019, 06:06:44 AM »
+1
When your playing with your friends outside tournaments, yes.  ;)

I believe the difference between deck building rules (card counts for example) and LS rules was already mention.
Although the Type 2 example is a bit farcical, let me ask a related question for Type I.

Quote from: R.E.G.
Maximum of 1 of each in a deck:
• Any card with more than one brigade at face value.
• Dominants (lamb icon or grim reaper icon cards).
• Lost Souls with a special ability.

Maximum of 1 of each per 50 cards in a deck:
• Any card that has a special ability. This includes characters, Enhancements, Artifacts,
Covenants, Curses, Sites, Fortresses and Cities.
Maximum of 3 of each in a deck:
• Heroes, Evil Characters and Enhancements that do not have a special ability and have
one brigade at face value.

How many Hoppers can I have in a 100-card Type I deck?  Am I limited to one based on the "Lost Souls with a special ability." restriction or 2 based on the "Any card that has a special ability." clause?


 


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