Author Topic: T2 Reserve Size (Read 13818 times)

jesse · « **on:** November 07, 2018, 05:21:40 PM »

Now that we've had the reserve for a few years, I'm wondering if T2 players feel like the Reserve size for T2 should be increased (perhaps to 15 or 20)? With every set being released, each Reserve slot is more and more important...do T2 players feel like 10 isn't enough?

My preference would be for an increase to perhaps 15 cards.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2018, 06:15:06 PM »

I haven't really used the reserve all that much (I haven't been able to put very much money into Redemption for the past several years) so I can't say for sure, but it does seem like 10 cards is a little low for my liking. I definitely thought that when it first came out. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, because playing card games like Redemption should force you to make choices. Also as one who does a lot of deck checking at our tournaments, increasing the size of the reserve would slightly increase my workload at tournament registration, although I don't think it's all that much and it very well might be worth it if the larger reserve makes the game better.

I'm definitely not opposed to increasing it to 15 or 20 (although probably not any bigger than 20) and would like to see how it changes things.

The Guardian · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2018, 06:52:20 PM »

I think a 5 good, 5 evil, 5 neutral/DAC Reserve would be an intriguing idea for T2.

goalieking87 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2018, 08:43:14 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 07, 2018, 06:52:20 PM

I think a 5 good, 5 evil, 5 neutral/DAC Reserve would be an intriguing idea for T2.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2018, 08:56:35 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on November 07, 2018, 08:43:14 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on November 07, 2018, 06:52:20 PM
I think a 5 good, 5 evil, 5 neutral/DAC Reserve would be an intriguing idea for T2.

I like this idea. I am good with this.

jesse · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2018, 11:10:58 PM »

I really like Justin's idea too. Soooooo.....unless anyone is opposed, can we do this change?

Kor · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2018, 11:37:09 PM »

I like the idea of expanding the reserve to 15 in T2, but I think I would like a bit more flexibility available than being forced into a 5/5/5 spit. Often it might end up like that anyways as in T2 you need to keep the reserve balanced, but it would be nice to sometimes go 6/6/3 instead.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 08, 2018, 10:11:32 AM »

Quote from: Kor on November 07, 2018, 11:37:09 PM

I like the idea of expanding the reserve to 15 in T2, but I think I would like a bit more flexibility available than being forced into a 5/5/5 spit. Often it might end up like that anyways as in T2 you need to keep the reserve balanced, but it would be nice to sometimes go 6/6/3 instead.

I agree with Kor! I like the idea of having flexibility. You are going to have to keep it balanced, and included at minimum 1 neutral card. I guess the only reason I would see needing some kind of policy on what it does have to include is to avoid abuse. I haven't looked it up but would there be some kind of abuse that you could do with 15 dual-alignment cards? I know that more than that exist, so you could fill your reserve with only those, but would that really be that bad of a thing?

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2018, 10:37:36 AM »

Part of my thinking was that a 5/5/5 Reserve keeps it very simple for deck checking, but I also see the merits of just going to 15 and keeping the balancing options open.

Kor · « **Reply #9 on:** November 08, 2018, 11:05:59 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 08, 2018, 10:37:36 AM

Part of my thinking was that a 5/5/5 Reserve keeps it very simple for deck checking, but I also see the merits of just going to 15 and keeping the balancing options open.

To help with deck checking speed, it could be required that players organize their reserve lists in Good/Evil/Neutral sections (and an official list template could just have sections for each).

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2018, 11:32:51 AM »

When I check in my type 2 decks, I actually already have it in 3 parts. I turn them the opposite way in my stack, so we could almost make that a requirement. If we do that all you have to do is make sure all the cards in the stack are in the right pile, count them and make sure they have the right amount of LS.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2018, 01:26:40 PM »

Quote from: Kor on November 08, 2018, 11:05:59 AM

To help with deck checking speed, it could be required that players organize their reserve lists in Good/Evil/Neutral sections (and an official list template could just have sections for each).

Please do not add any requirements for how a deck must be sorted.

I have long harbored a dream to sort a T2 deck alphabetically by verse and bring it to Chris Bany for a deck check. "What is the problem? You said the deck must be sorted. My deck is sorted."

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2018, 01:35:47 PM »

MJB, if you attend one of my tournaments, I will let you sort your deck any way you wish.

Bobbert · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:11:36 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 08, 2018, 01:35:47 PM

MJB, if you attend one of my tournaments, I will let you sort your deck any way you wish.

That sounds like a challenge.

Reverse alphabetically by artist? Ties broken by the hex code of the background?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:18:32 PM »

I always have my decks organized by border color

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:21:58 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on November 08, 2018, 02:11:36 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on November 08, 2018, 01:35:47 PM
MJB, if you attend one of my tournaments, I will let you sort your deck any way you wish.

That sounds like a challenge.

Reverse alphabetically by artist? Ties broken by the hex code of the background?

That offer applies specifically to MJB.

jesse · « **Reply #16 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:33:47 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on November 08, 2018, 01:26:40 PM

Quote from: Kor on November 08, 2018, 11:05:59 AM
To help with deck checking speed, it could be required that players organize their reserve lists in Good/Evil/Neutral sections (and an official list template could just have sections for each).
Please do not add any requirements for how a deck must be sorted.

I have long harbored a dream to sort a T2 deck alphabetically by verse and bring it to Chris Bany for a deck check. "What is the problem? You said the deck must be sorted. My deck is sorted."

Witnessing Chris' reaction would alone be worth the price of admission!

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:53:33 PM »

Also agree would still like the flexibility of the reserve in T2 as well.

Would like just to increase to 15 cards.

jesse · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2018, 08:59:51 AM »

So, is this something that could be discussed by the elders about implementing some time, perhaps even this season?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 18, 2018, 01:19:18 AM »

Reserve size should be equal to the number of Lost Souls in your deck, just like Dominants.

This is a strongly-held belief, which I have no good arguments to support.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #20 on:** November 18, 2018, 02:15:26 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on November 18, 2018, 01:19:18 AM

Reserve size should be equal to the number of Lost Souls in your deck, just like Dominants.

This is a strongly-held belief, which I have no good arguments to support.

I'm not really opposed to this, assuming this means the maximum the reserve can be, not that you have to have a reserve with 14 cards in a 100 card deck. It does scale your reserve based on the size of your deck which is interesting, and as a T2 player I'd gain at least 4 reserve slots. Although somehow I don't think T1 players would like losing 3 reserve slots in their 50-56 card decks... but since I don't play I won't say any more about that.

I do like things being based on Lost Soul numbers because it can give you a reason to play a somewhat larger deck (which is normally a suboptimal strategy).

777Godspeed · « **Reply #21 on:** November 18, 2018, 09:45:36 PM »

Whoa, pump the brakes... This is a thread about T2 reserve size not decreasing T1 reserve size by linking it to number of LSs in a deck. T2 can have/change/link x to y Reserve size, but leave T1 out of it. That being said if MJB has a strongly held belief with no sound arguement to support it then I probably have a very good point with no validity.

Godspeed,
Mike

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 19, 2018, 05:24:02 AM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on November 18, 2018, 09:45:36 PM

Whoa, pump the brakes... This is a thread about T2 reserve size not decreasing T1 reserve size by linking it to number of LSs in a deck.

Why have 10 reserve cards for a standard T1 deck? What does "10" have to do with Redemption? Absolutely nothing. Whereas Redemption has a long history of fixing things to the number of lost souls in a deck--sites, dominants--the number 10 was apparently picked out of thin air with no ties to the heritage of the game. Time to just admit this was a bad decision, fix it, and return to the historic roots of the game. If you want more than 7 cards in your reserve play a larger deck or switch to T2.
#respect-the-game

The above is a standard type defense you should expect when a strongly held belief with no good argument in support is questioned.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #23 on:** November 19, 2018, 08:51:49 AM »

Why not? Why does "10" have to have anything to do with Redemption? A Reserve of 10 cards is reasonable in T1 as is 15 in T2. I don't see a need to tie it to LS count other than the reason you provided. As for history, Redemption has been doing that since day one by defying the odds in the gaming market. Silver Anniversary anyone? A 10 card Reserve hasn't broken anything, it is optional and can be 0-10 by choice. If it becomes tied to LS count will it be required for every deck to have a Reserve and it has to be X, X = to LSs in your deck? I think choices are healthy for the game and currently don't see a downside to a T1 Reserve of up to 10. As for T2, I don't play it enough to have much input other than I don't see a Reserve of up to 15 as an issue. So those are my good points with no validity.

Godspeed,
Mike

Afterthought, The number 10 may have been in honor of the historic 10th Anniversary. 😎

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 19, 2018, 09:15:28 AM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on November 19, 2018, 08:51:49 AM

Silver anniversary anyone?

Saving this quote for later.

Quote

A 10 card Reserve hasn't broken anything, it is optional and can be 0-10 by choice. If it becomes tied to LS count will it be required for every deck to have a Reserve and it has to be X, X = to LSs in your deck?

No, silly billy.* The Dominant cap is tied to the number of lost souls in the deck and that does *not* mean you have to have the maximum number of dominants if you do not want. The number of sites is tied to the number of lost souls in the deck and that does *not* mean you have the maximum number of sites in your deck if you do not want. As a person who respects the game and its rich heritage the reserve should be treated the same as the dominant and site caps.

#respect-the-game

Quote

Afterthought, The number 10 may have been in honor of the historic 10th Anniversary. 😎

Do you really believe that a "Silver anniversary" connotes 10 years?*

*Name calling is pretty much de rigueur when arguing for a strongly held belief for which there is no real support.
**Ditto for mis-interpreting your opponent.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #25 on:** November 19, 2018, 09:39:53 AM »

I was just checking with my questions as we did ban the 2/3 Liner. I know, I know not raising a done deal I'm just sorry to see her go. I also enjoy the history of Redemption, I just don't view it as the end all be all for basing decisions on changes within the game.
And no, there are 15 years between our current Silver Anniversary celebration and the historic 10th Anniversary release of G&H. You may have missed I was, in my funny way, tying the "thin air" Reserve number of 10 to the historic 10th Anniversary of Redemption.
All Historic Milestones, nonetheless, that increase the richness of Redemption. We all respect the game and have our differing opinions of what "should" happen. At a minimum we have brought attention to the T2 Reserve size and that it may warrant a closer look.

I don't understand the pound sign thing, so I am probably losing coolness/validity points.

Godspeed,
Mike

777Godspeed · « **Reply #26 on:** November 19, 2018, 10:06:34 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on November 19, 2018, 09:15:28 AM

No, silly billy

I have been called much worse and found it very funny as I haven't heard the expression for decades.
I continue to stand by, at a minimum, our back and forth has brought attention to the T2 Reserve size and strongly held positions that some in the Redemption community hold.

You are a good man MJB and your actions on the forums continue to be an inspiration for me to better myself.

Godspeed,
Mike

Gabe · « **Reply #27 on:** November 19, 2018, 10:39:15 AM »

If you think about it for a moment I believe you'll find the perfect size for the reserve is fairly obvious.

The word "reserve" contains 7 letters and begins with "R", the 18th letter of the alphabet. 18 - 7 = 11

The number 11 represents two parallel lines.

The 2-Liner and 3-Liner are also parallel, both in the cards depiction and in their pre-ban use in T1. Those cards were banned on a Monday.

Monday is also the day that Solomon Grundy was born. He was buried on a Sunday.

Sunday is the day that we celebrate the resurrection of our Savior, being the 3rd day after he was crucified and buried.

Fans of the Christian rock band Third Day are called "Gomers".

Gomer's husband Hosea wrote the first book in the minor prophets in the Bible.

Hosea is card #170 in the Prophesies of Christ set.

The 170th day of the year (except leap year) is June 19th.

June is the 6th month on the Julian calendar.

The 6th Redemption expansion released was Patriarchs which contains 10 letters.

And THAT is why the Reserve is exactly 10 cards and should remain that way forever.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 19, 2018, 10:47:01 AM »

Wow, Gabe! How long did that take to come up with?

777Godspeed · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2018, 10:53:13 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on November 19, 2018, 10:39:15 AM

And THAT is why the Reserve is exactly 10 cards and should remain that way forever.

For T1, right!?!?!
T2 and the players thereof are a whole nother animal and require different considerations.

Godspeed,
Mike

Edit: I just noticed that Gabe said "should" instead of "will". Hmmm

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 19, 2018, 11:25:46 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on November 19, 2018, 10:39:15 AM

The 6th Redemption expansion released was Patriarchs which contains 10 letters.

The 6th Redemption expansion released was "The Patriarchs" (according to Cactus Games). I am not surprised to find that fly-by-the-pants gimcrackery is what led to a reserve size of 10 cards. Attention to detail is a hallmark of respect.

#respect-the-game

goalieking87 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 19, 2018, 11:30:37 AM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on November 19, 2018, 10:47:01 AM

Wow, Gabe! How long did that take to come up with?

I don’t think it took him very long since he just had to type it. The Elders already vetted the Reserve size, and quite obviously already had this justification before releasing it to the public. I am just glad that the Elders put so much thought into it and didn’t choose it at random.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #32 on:** November 19, 2018, 11:41:31 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on November 19, 2018, 11:25:46 AM

Quote from: Gabe on November 19, 2018, 10:39:15 AM
The 6th Redemption expansion released was Patriarchs which contains 10 letters.
The 6th Redemption expansion released was "The Patriarchs" (according to Cactus Games). I am not surprised to find that fly-by-the-pants gimcrackery is what led to a reserve size of 10 cards. Attention to detail is a hallmark of respect.

#respect-the-game

That is funny good stuff right there.

Godspeed,
Mike

Kor · « **Reply #33 on:** December 28, 2018, 05:09:16 AM »

Any updates on this?

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 28, 2018, 02:17:19 PM »

Would be great if the Type 2 reserve was a little bigger.

They are both 2 types of game styles for redemption and the deck minimum is different , so why not make the type 2 reserve different??

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 28, 2018, 02:19:18 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on December 28, 2018, 02:17:19 PM

why not make the type 2 reserve different??

Because...

Quote from: Gabe on November 19, 2018, 10:39:15 AM

The 6th Redemption expansion released was Patriarchs which contains 10 letters.

And THAT is why the Reserve is exactly 10 cards and should remain that way forever.

Gabe · « **Reply #36 on:** January 07, 2020, 01:13:56 PM »

Wow, what a fun read! I had forgotten about this thread.

Last night we had a brief call to wrap up some things for REG 7.0. I believe we will have that available before the end of the month. During our call we also agreed to expand the T2 Reserve to 15 cards. That will take effect at the same time as the REG 7.0 release.

**begin happy dance**

jesse · « **Reply #37 on:** January 07, 2020, 01:41:36 PM »

Woohoo!!! Thank you so much! T2 just became even more epic!

And this was a really fun thread lol - Gabe you went all out in explaining why the Reserve was 10 cards

777Godspeed · « **Reply #38 on:** January 07, 2020, 01:55:56 PM »

I think MJB got to him with this -

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on November 19, 2018, 11:25:46 AM

I am not surprised to find that fly-by-the-pants gimcrackery is what led to a reserve size of 10 cards.

Godspeed,
Mike

Kor · « **Reply #39 on:** January 07, 2020, 06:36:19 PM »

Great news! This is something I’ve been hoping for!

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #40 on:** January 07, 2020, 10:07:14 PM »

This'll make things more interesting.

Locutus · « **Reply #41 on:** January 08, 2020, 11:58:16 AM »

Wonderful! Excellent move for T2!

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #42 on:** January 09, 2020, 06:36:45 PM »

Just a heads up, I haven’t read any of the posts so sorry if I’m double posting any ideas. I have always been for 20 card reserve in T2 since the reserve came out or a 5 card reserve in T1, 10 in T2. 10, now, easily accessible cards but still having a 50 card deck is insane as everyone saw this year at nats. This next year will be even quicker and more efficient, IMO. But I feel like people are used to 10 card reserves for T1 now but I 100% agree with Justin on 5/5/5 but I really like 20 keep it even as well.

Edit*- this was definitely a thread that I should have read before posting lol that’s what I get for being lazy. Great change, thank you leadership team.

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Author Topic: T2 Reserve Size (Read 13818 times)