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There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!
Can you give some examples? In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).
Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2018, 09:16:37 AMCan you give some examples? In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).Sure:Babylon / The Harlot > Babylon the GreatDragon's Minion (RoJ)> Ancient Evil (Black Enhancement)Terrifying Beast (RoA) > Wrath of SatanFourth Seal/Death (RoJ) > Death and Hades (War)Blashemies (RoJ) > Beast from the Sea (Original)The Deceiver (RoJ) > Number of the Beast (War)There was quite a bit more, but this punctuates the O.P. point.KeithSon, exonerated from bondage (S.E.B.)
So your example is showing you are upset by 2 characters being updated? Death & Babylon the Harlot are updated versions, so using the same art makes since. Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.
For pretty much all of those examples, the original cards never see play with the exception of Wrath of Satan.The Revelation of John set was in some ways a "Warriors 2.0" set in that so many of the cards were pulled from Revelation. Using some of that great artwork from those old Warriors cards (that otherwise just sit in the bottom of the "free box") seemed like a great way to help our "budget" while using quality pieces.Personally I love re-using great artwork on new and improved versions of cards that I will actually use for my decks. A few of my favorite examples are Abaddon the Destroyer (RoJ) and Red Dragon (RoJ).
Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have.
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AMNobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have. But what about when they come out as Legacy Rares in the future Cruft of Our Fathers set?
Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AMAlso every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.
Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AMQuote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AMAlso every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title. (Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)
That is a noble idea, but extremely frustrating for those new to the game. Really, it produces unnecessary confusion. In every card game that I have played (or boardgame with cards), the name of the Card and art of the card are an unbroken link. Expected Industry Standard: artwork should only be used for a single titled card, but a titled card can have more than one artwork issued. This may not be an issue for you, but for those who are stepped in TCGs, it is.The reason I bring this up: I like to use Redemption to reach gamers who are not in God's Kingdom. When an expected requirement of a TCG is missed, it can often turn from a door to a wall.
I know it's just my opinion, but when making new reprints of old cards, I'd often prefer updated, reworked, or new art over the old art. Along with The Guardian, I have never heard anyone bring this up before. Most people that I've talked to like new art or reusing old art on different cards.
Babylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.
Quote from: Bobbert on April 24, 2018, 11:28:28 AMBabylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.If it is the Reprint, why does it have a different name?
Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:22:26 AMQuote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AMQuote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AMAlso every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture. I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title. (Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)I did, and as was previously stated, Babylon / The Harlot is the updated version of Babylon the Great. The name was modified to fit the new type of card it was.
I guess they could have left it Babylon the Great, then people would have complained that it being a site, it should be Babylon the Great (city, place, whatever). Then when it gets converted to a character Babylon the Great city?!?!?! Is she just really fat or something? Why do you have to call someone a city?!?!?! Obviously this wouldn't work, so the name was modified to fit the new card type.
To be real you have 7 posts and are complaining about something I haven't seen anyone complain about and giving people -1 on encouraging replies. Seems like you are compromising yourself more than what you are suggesting the reuse of good art would.
Quote from: Crashfach2002 on April 24, 2018, 12:25:58 PMI guess they could have left it Babylon the Great, then people would have complained that it being a site, it should be Babylon the Great (city, place, whatever). Then when it gets converted to a character Babylon the Great city?!?!?! Is she just really fat or something? Why do you have to call someone a city?!?!?! Obviously this wouldn't work, so the name was modified to fit the new card type.Your point is valid that the card "Babylon/The Whore" is radically different than "Babylon the Great" demanding a new name, but that now means it's a new card and not a reprint - so shouldn't everything be different? The name and the artwork? that would make it crystal clear.
In redemption, the name and the art are in some ways the least important part of the card because of how unique cards are treated. In redemption there are 4 versions of David (David, King David, David, the Shepard, David, the Psalmist) that each have different names, art, brigades, and abilities, but they are all treated as the same unique character "David". So any card that refers to "David" refers to all of these characters, not just the one who's title is simply "David".Spoiler (hover to show)
I apologize if I have made people angry - not my intention. I was pointing out an issue that other TCGs dont do. I am clearly in a minority.
Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 12:19:06 PMI apologize if I have made people angry - not my intention. I was pointing out an issue that other TCGs dont do. I am clearly in a minority.I don't think you necessarily made anyone angry. I know I definitely appreciate people giving input and feedback--particularly someone who used to be involved in the game and is returning.I think the way you presented it was a bit off-putting. The implication felt a bit like "Hey I'm back, looks like you guys have been doing it wrong all these years." Re-using high-quality artwork (from cards that never get used) for new cards has been an established practice (though done more sparingly in recent years) for Redemption, and has been one of the main reasons it's been able to continue being produced (i.e. using free art and art that Cactus already has rights to)--along with hundreds of hours of volunteer work, a lot of which is devoted to finding quality free art.
Many cards have the identifier unique. A character is unique if any of the following is true. if none of the following are true, the character is considered generic for all gameplay and deckbuilding rules: 1. The card has a Unique identifier, or has been given errata to make it unique. 2. The card title is a name or names of specific person(s) or being(s). 3. The card represents a specific person(s) or being(s), or a specified quantity of persons or beings, who is related to person(s) or being(s) whose name is in the card title. 4. The card title begins with “The”. 5. The card represents a supernatural leader or ruler of an army or realm (physical or spiritual). 6. A reprinted version of the card is Unique per any of the above definitions. All Dominants, Fortresses and Artifacts are unique. Curses and Covenants when used as an Artifact are also considered unique cards. Players may only control one of each unique card in his territory, set-aside area, or his side of battle. Different cards that represent the same character are also considered unique with each other, even if aspects such as the title, brigade, numbers, special ability, card art or reference are different. See Duplicate Cards.
Redemption is a very small, niche game that does not have funds for commissioning new artwork regularly. When Redemption first started in the 90s, thousands of dollars went towards original artwork that appeared on cards that are now considered too weak to play. Because of that, and instead of opting for public domain artwork for every card, Cactus reuses some of the old artwork that otherwise would be forgotten. I for one would rather see a reuse of original Redemption artwork than public domain artwork.
Quote from: Daniel on April 24, 2018, 01:11:23 PMRedemption is a very small, niche game that does not have funds for commissioning new artwork regularly. When Redemption first started in the 90s, thousands of dollars went towards original artwork that appeared on cards that are now considered too weak to play. Because of that, and instead of opting for public domain artwork for every card, Cactus reuses some of the old artwork that otherwise would be forgotten. I for one would rather see a reuse of original Redemption artwork than public domain artwork.Per usual, the graphic designer summarized something regarding art much better than I did...
My confusion isnt grounded in re-using artwork (in fact I think it can be great), it's when artwork is associated with one card "A" and then given to a new card "B" that is different enough that it needs a new name (i.e. Babylon/The whore ["A"] vis-a-vis Babylon the Great["B"]).
Quote from: SEB on April 24, 2018, 01:44:08 PMMy confusion isnt grounded in re-using artwork (in fact I think it can be great), it's when artwork is associated with one card "A" and then given to a new card "B" that is different enough that it needs a new name (i.e. Babylon/The whore ["A"] vis-a-vis Babylon the Great["B"]).I completely agree and understand were you are coming from, but I would argue that what you are describing as being an issue is actually not the case.Of the handful of examples that have been brought up where old art was used on a new card with a new name, the old card where the art came from is, for all practical purposes, nothing more than kindling/packing material. These "useless" cards practically don't exist. The one exception I can think of off the top of my head being Wrath of Satan/Terrifying Beast. I wonder if there are any other examples of two playable cards that share the same art?Every single time a "card" has been "reprinted" when a playable version of that "card" already existed, different art has been used.I totally understand how it would be confusing if there were 2-4 playable cards that existed at the same time where all are different card types/brigades/special abilities, but that is just not the case.I apologize if I sound dogmatic or argumentative. As this discussion seems to go round and round in circles, a little more clarity/understanding comes with each lap. I'm just trying to be as clear and concise as possible as I understand where you are coming from and as I try to articulate my opinion.