Author Topic: Elders, some straw for our bricks?  (Read 7311 times)

Offline SEB

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Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« on: April 24, 2018, 09:08:35 AM »
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Forgive the hyperbole in the title  ;).
(Disclaimer: this post is sent with love and respect for all that you guys do for the Redemption community)

It has been awhile since I have had the pleasure of playing Redemption. I recently started getting back into the swing of things, when something made me extremely disheartened! Issuing existing art on cards with a different name.

I play many boardgames and card games, and this minor thing is proving to be a surprisingly frustrating barrier of re-entry. I can only assume that brand new players and returning players that have taken a significant break are having similar frustrations. As a player, the first thing you notice is the artwork on the card. In a sense it is the "visual social security number." Lol, I felt like some of the new cards performed identity theft.

This visual error makes it difficult to quickly sort through cards, it may add to play mistakes, and it takes up more game time to verify which card is actually being played.

I've been involved with many ministries, my initial guess is fund allocation. Do we want unique art or the cards to be printed. - I understand that you are dealing with budget constraints. I'm not asking for new artwork to be purchased, just not to use existing artwork on a card with a different name.

Thanks for the consideration and your time.

Keith
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2018, 09:16:37 AM »
+5
Can you give some examples?

In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).
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kariusvega

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 09:38:15 AM »
+3
There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.

I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.

Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!

Offline Xonathan

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »
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There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.

I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.

Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!

 +1
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Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2018, 10:49:00 AM »
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Can you give some examples?

In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).

Sure:

Babylon / The Harlot > Babylon the Great
Dragon's Minion (RoJ)> Ancient Evil (Black Enhancement)
Terrifying Beast (RoA) > Wrath of Satan
Fourth Seal/Death (RoJ) > Death and Hades (War)
Blashemies (RoJ) > Beast from the Sea (Original)
The Deceiver (RoJ) > Number of the Beast (War)

There was quite a bit more, but this punctuates the O.P. point.

Keith
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM »
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Can you give some examples?

In general we rarely reuse old art on a new and different card. When we do we try to ensure that the old card that used it is one that really doesn't get used (and probably never did).

Sure:

Babylon / The Harlot > Babylon the Great
Dragon's Minion (RoJ)> Ancient Evil (Black Enhancement)
Terrifying Beast (RoA) > Wrath of Satan
Fourth Seal/Death (RoJ) > Death and Hades (War)
Blashemies (RoJ) > Beast from the Sea (Original)
The Deceiver (RoJ) > Number of the Beast (War)

There was quite a bit more, but this punctuates the O.P. point.

Keith
Son, exonerated from bondage (S.E.B.)

So your example is showing you are upset by 2 characters being updated?  Death & Babylon the Harlot are updated versions, so using the same art makes since.  Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


***Edit:  Not to mention the response you got the first time still holds true.  Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have.  Also, Terrifying Beast & Death and Hades see very little play, so they almost fall into this category.***
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 10:59:13 AM by Crashfach2002 »

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2018, 10:58:37 AM »
+2
For pretty much all of those examples, the original cards never see play with the exception of Wrath of Satan.

The Revelation of John set was in some ways a "Warriors 2.0" set in that so many of the cards were pulled from Revelation. Using some of that great artwork from those old Warriors cards (that otherwise just sit in the bottom of the "free box") seemed like a great way to help our "budget" while using quality pieces.

Personally I love re-using great artwork on new and improved versions of cards that I will actually use for my decks. A few of my favorite examples are Abaddon the Destroyer (RoJ) and Red Dragon (RoJ).  8)
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Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2018, 11:04:07 AM »
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There is a ton of art being used now that wasn't used before and art that is a really cool throw back on cards that see little play.

I definitely dig the fine art being used now days that we didn't see much of before but also the very cool kid friendly comic styles. Overall I love the diversity of the artwork in the game and have almost never found the artwork to be a barrier in card recognition during play.

Hope you've seen the new set! Great artwork in it as well! :-) All of the cards are alternate border in this one and they look awesome!

That is a noble idea, but extremely frustrating for those new to the game. Really, it produces unnecessary confusion. In every card game that I have played (or boardgame with cards), the name of the Card and art of the card are an unbroken link. Expected Industry Standard: artwork should only be used for a single titled card, but a titled card can have more than one artwork issued. This may not be an issue for you, but for those who are stepped in TCGs, it is.

The reason I bring this up: I like to use Redemption to reach gamers who are not in God's Kingdom. When an expected requirement of a TCG is missed, it can often turn from a door to a wall.
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Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2018, 11:07:16 AM »
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So your example is showing you are upset by 2 characters being updated?  Death & Babylon the Harlot are updated versions, so using the same art makes since.  Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


No I am not upset at all. I am pointing out that what people expect from a TCG is once artwork is tied to a titled card, it never changes. Pay homage to the old art, but dont muddy the water.
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Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 11:10:32 AM »
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For pretty much all of those examples, the original cards never see play with the exception of Wrath of Satan.

The Revelation of John set was in some ways a "Warriors 2.0" set in that so many of the cards were pulled from Revelation. Using some of that great artwork from those old Warriors cards (that otherwise just sit in the bottom of the "free box") seemed like a great way to help our "budget" while using quality pieces.

Personally I love re-using great artwork on new and improved versions of cards that I will actually use for my decks. A few of my favorite examples are Abaddon the Destroyer (RoJ) and Red Dragon (RoJ).  8)

But in your example, You named Cards that used original Artwork (Red Dragon and Abaddon). That is fine. I was happy to see that. I recognized the picture and tied it to the title of the card.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2018, 11:11:34 AM »
+2
Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have.
But what about when they come out as Legacy Rares in the future Cruft of Our Fathers set?

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2018, 11:12:58 AM »
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Nobody plays Babylon the Great, Ancient Evil, Beast from the Sea or Number of the Beast unless they are literally the only card they have.
But what about when they come out as Legacy Rares in the future Cruft of Our Fathers set?

They better hope that people buy cards for their looks, or complete sets, because I'm not sure I'd spend a penny on a Babylon the Great card!  :P

Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2018, 11:18:55 AM »
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Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.
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Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2018, 11:22:26 AM »
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Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2018, 11:28:28 AM »
+3
Babylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2018, 11:30:10 AM »
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Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)

I did, and as was previously stated, Babylon / The Harlot is the updated version of Babylon the Great.  The name was modified to fit the new type of card it was.

Offline Xonathan

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2018, 11:37:30 AM »
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Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

People are visually driven but I wouldn’t assume that means they’ll be confused when the same art is being used.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 11:37:51 AM »
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once we hit set rotation in a few years this will be a moot point anyway, all those old cards will be going away.  I took a few years off and came back and noticed a few cards with art like this, didn't phase me

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 11:39:46 AM »
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Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)

To be real you have 7 posts and are complaining about something I haven't seen anyone complain about and giving people -1 on encouraging replies. Seems like you are compromising yourself more than what you are suggesting the reuse of good art would.

There is one cost in this life: opportunity. Play with I/j starter decks if you are trying to introduce people to the game and share the gospel with them through it.

This thread should be locked.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2018, 11:42:09 AM »
+1
That is a noble idea, but extremely frustrating for those new to the game. Really, it produces unnecessary confusion. In every card game that I have played (or boardgame with cards), the name of the Card and art of the card are an unbroken link. Expected Industry Standard: artwork should only be used for a single titled card, but a titled card can have more than one artwork issued. This may not be an issue for you, but for those who are stepped in TCGs, it is.

The reason I bring this up: I like to use Redemption to reach gamers who are not in God's Kingdom. When an expected requirement of a TCG is missed, it can often turn from a door to a wall.

While Redemption is the only card game I've ever been involved in, I can say that I've taught numerous people how to play and there's never been an issue with re-used artwork causing confusion, (and this was done even more in the past than in recent years).

I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion by any means, but I simply don't understand where the confusion might come in. While it doesn't describe me, I know there are many others involved in Redemption who have been a part of many other card games ("stepped" as you called it), and I have never heard anyone bring this up before.

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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2018, 11:44:06 AM »
+2
As someone who has introduced quite a few people to Redemption over the last few years, this has never been a problem.  First and foremost, because like kariusvega said, you should introduce them with the I/J decks.  From there the new cards should be introduced before most of the older ones.  If you do that, then this won't ever be a problem.  So the question now is: "What do I do with all these old cards I have?"  Well give them away to the people you are introducing to the game, and if you feel duplicate pictures will be a bigger hindrance than benefit, pick the better card of the two, and don't even use the other one. 

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2018, 11:46:05 AM »
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I know it's just my opinion, but when making new reprints of old cards, I'd often prefer updated, reworked, or new art over the old art. Along with The Guardian, I have never heard anyone bring this up before. Most people that I've talked to like new art or reusing old art on different cards.
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Offline NathanW

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2018, 11:47:57 AM »
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I know it's just my opinion, but when making new reprints of old cards, I'd often prefer updated, reworked, or new art over the old art. Along with The Guardian, I have never heard anyone bring this up before. Most people that I've talked to like new art or reusing old art on different cards.
+1

Also reusing the artwork gives a chance to actually use high res versions. ;)
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2018, 12:19:06 PM »
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I apologize if I have made people angry - not my intention. I was pointing out an issue that other TCGs dont do. I am clearly in a minority.
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Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2018, 12:20:16 PM »
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Babylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.

If it is the Reprint, why does it have a different name?
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2018, 12:25:58 PM »
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Babylon/The Harlot IS the reprint of Babylon the Great. The game has changed a lot in the last twenty years; it's referencing the same thing, but now that character/event is printed in a way that is relevant to both the story and the game.

If it is the Reprint, why does it have a different name?

Also every other example you gave is a character and enhancement with the same picture.  I don't know how you can confuse these given the fact they have different symbols on them and they have to be played (during games) at different times.


Yes the information is there, but Think of my point like this: if you reorder the positions of a stoplight, people will still stop when it is Red no matter if it's the top or the bottom. People are visually driven.

You may not purchase the Old "Babylon the Great." But if there was an updated version (like many cards have had), you would buy that I think? My point is the art for Babylon the Great, needs to stay with that title.

(Note: im not trying to troll, im genuinely interested)

I did, and as was previously stated, Babylon / The Harlot is the updated version of Babylon the Great. The name was modified to fit the new type of card it was.

I guess they could have left it Babylon the Great, then people would have complained that it being a site, it should be Babylon the Great (city, place, whatever).  Then when it gets converted to a character Babylon the Great city?!?!?!  Is she just really fat or something?  Why do you have to call someone a city?!?!?!  Obviously this wouldn't work, so the name was modified to fit the new card type.

Offline SEB

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2018, 12:36:38 PM »
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I guess they could have left it Babylon the Great, then people would have complained that it being a site, it should be Babylon the Great (city, place, whatever).  Then when it gets converted to a character Babylon the Great city?!?!?!  Is she just really fat or something?  Why do you have to call someone a city?!?!?!  Obviously this wouldn't work, so the name was modified to fit the new card type.

I did wonder if the card was a fat joke!

Your point is valid that the card "Babylon/The Whore" is radically different than "Babylon the Great" demanding a new name, but that now means it's a new card and not a reprint - so shouldnt everything be different? The name and the artwork? that would make it crystal clear.
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2018, 12:40:08 PM »
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It's referring to the same character, so it is considered the same card in Redemption

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2018, 12:41:48 PM »
+3
In redemption, the name and the art are in some ways the least important part of the card because of how unique cards are treated. In redemption there are 4 versions of David (David, King David, David, the Shepard, David, the Psalmist) that each have different names, art, brigades, and abilities, but they are all treated as the same unique character "David". So any card that refers to "David" refers to all of these characters, not just the one who's title is simply "David".
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2018, 12:45:03 PM »
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To be real you have 7 posts and are complaining about something I haven't seen anyone complain about and giving people -1 on encouraging replies. Seems like you are compromising yourself more than what you are suggesting the reuse of good art would.

I was not meaning to be disrespectful. I am genuinely trying to understand this philosophy; it was "culture-shock" to me.
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2018, 12:46:04 PM »
+1
I guess they could have left it Babylon the Great, then people would have complained that it being a site, it should be Babylon the Great (city, place, whatever).  Then when it gets converted to a character Babylon the Great city?!?!?!  Is she just really fat or something?  Why do you have to call someone a city?!?!?!  Obviously this wouldn't work, so the name was modified to fit the new card type.
Your point is valid that the card "Babylon/The Whore" is radically different than "Babylon the Great" demanding a new name, but that now means it's a new card and not a reprint - so shouldn't everything be different? The name and the artwork? that would make it crystal clear.
But it's supposed to be reminiscent of the old card. It's a reprint. I mean, lets compare the two side by side.



You can't tell me you would accidentally play the old one as the new one or vice versa. 
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2018, 12:49:15 PM »
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In redemption, the name and the art are in some ways the least important part of the card because of how unique cards are treated. In redemption there are 4 versions of David (David, King David, David, the Shepard, David, the Psalmist) that each have different names, art, brigades, and abilities, but they are all treated as the same unique character "David". So any card that refers to "David" refers to all of these characters, not just the one who's title is simply "David".
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There is also

http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/David_(Green)_(Ki)?file=David_(Green)_(Ki).jpg

I want to take this time to express how much I love the Davids in Redemption.  David (the real man) has helped me stick close to the Lord during my life, and I love how many iterations there are of him in the game.

Also, I personally love seeing old cards get revived in this game.  I do not mind changes of title or types.  Not trying to make you feel bad though SEB. :)

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2018, 12:49:41 PM »
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I apologize if I have made people angry - not my intention. I was pointing out an issue that other TCGs dont do. I am clearly in a minority.

I don't think you necessarily made anyone angry. I know I definitely appreciate people giving input and feedback--particularly someone who used to be involved in the game and is returning.

I think the way you presented it was a bit off-putting. The implication felt a bit like "Hey I'm back, looks like you guys have been doing it wrong all these years." Re-using high-quality artwork (from cards that never get used) for new cards has been an established practice (though done more sparingly in recent years) for Redemption, and has been one of the main reasons it's been able to continue being produced (i.e. using free art and art that Cactus already has rights to)--along with hundreds of hours of volunteer work, a lot of which is devoted to finding quality free art.
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2018, 12:50:04 PM »
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In redemption, the name and the art are in some ways the least important part of the card because of how unique cards are treated. In redemption there are 4 versions of David (David, King David, David, the Shepard, David, the Psalmist) that each have different names, art, brigades, and abilities, but they are all treated as the same unique character "David". So any card that refers to "David" refers to all of these characters, not just the one who's title is simply "David".
Spoiler (hover to show)

Thanks Noah, this is helpful.
I understand that all of those 4 unique cards are referring to the same single character: David. But even in your examples: They have unique names in the card and unique artwork to distinguish them. Cards can be both unique and refer to the same "person/character." Your example seems to emphasize the point on which I have been confused. I would have assumed that they are all examples of the character David while remaining unique cards.
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2018, 12:57:55 PM »
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I apologize if I have made people angry - not my intention. I was pointing out an issue that other TCGs dont do. I am clearly in a minority.

I don't think you necessarily made anyone angry. I know I definitely appreciate people giving input and feedback--particularly someone who used to be involved in the game and is returning.

I think the way you presented it was a bit off-putting. The implication felt a bit like "Hey I'm back, looks like you guys have been doing it wrong all these years." Re-using high-quality artwork (from cards that never get used) for new cards has been an established practice (though done more sparingly in recent years) for Redemption, and has been one of the main reasons it's been able to continue being produced (i.e. using free art and art that Cactus already has rights to)--along with hundreds of hours of volunteer work, a lot of which is devoted to finding quality free art.

I am very sorry. This was not how I felt. I was hoping the little disclaimer at my start would help convey my feelings. I was coming from a point of genuine frustration. I was hoping to bring a positive discussion about something that was frustrating to me. In no way was I intending to dismiss the man hours involved in the community; and as i stated before, I know budgets can be tricky in ministries (i look at Redemption as a ministry, even if it's technically a company).
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2018, 01:04:22 PM »
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I guess I expected the artwork to be like the titled card's mascot, you know a fluffy pink bear with a jersey that has the school name on it. It would be strange to see another team use someone else's mascot down to the name on the jersey.
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2018, 01:11:23 PM »
+2
Redemption is a very small, niche game that does not have funds for commissioning new artwork regularly. When Redemption first started in the 90s, thousands of dollars went towards original artwork that appeared on cards that are now considered too weak to play. Because of that, and instead of opting for public domain artwork for every card, Cactus reuses some of the old artwork that otherwise would be forgotten. I for one would rather see a reuse of original Redemption artwork than public domain artwork.

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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2018, 01:12:49 PM »
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I think part of the confusion could be the loosely defined, and probably misunderstood, use of the word "reprint". In most other card games, a "reprint" of a card is made primarily to keep the card in the current rotation of the game without altering it's original ability/intent. In Redemption, however, because of how the game has progressed over the years, we use the term "reprint" to refer to a card that has been, in most cases, redesigned to work in the current meta with the old art, and sometimes the original name, as more of an homage to the original, often unplayable, card. In recent sets, whenever a unique card that is already playable is given a contemporary with a different ability, different art has been used. Examples of this include, Samuel, Jacob, Moses, Michael, the Archangel, and the list goes on and on.

Also, whenever I use the word "unique", I am referring to the game definition of unique found in the REG,
Quote from: REG 5.0.0, Unique Card
Many cards have the identifier unique. A character is unique if any of the following is true. if none of the following are true, the character is considered generic for all gameplay and deckbuilding rules: 1. The card has a Unique identifier, or has been given errata to make it unique. 2. The card title is a name or names of specific person(s) or being(s). 3. The card represents a specific person(s) or being(s), or a specified quantity of persons or beings, who is related to person(s) or being(s) whose name is in the card title. 4. The card title begins with “The”. 5. The card represents a supernatural leader or ruler of an army or realm (physical or spiritual). 6. A reprinted version of the card is Unique per any of the above definitions.
 
All Dominants, Fortresses and Artifacts are unique. Curses and Covenants when used as an Artifact are also considered unique cards. Players may only control one of each unique card in his territory, set-aside area, or his side of battle. Different cards that represent the same character are also considered unique with each other, even if aspects such as the title, brigade, numbers, special ability, card art or reference are different. See Duplicate Cards.

Additionally, here is a complete list of all cards in Redemption that meet this definition of being "unique" but have different names,
 
• Abram (Pa) or Abraham (Pa, CW)
• Ahab (B, C, Or) or King Ahab (RA2)
• Ahaziah (Pr) or King Ahaziah (PC)
• Amram & Jochebed (CW-Alt) or Jochebed (Wo) or Moses’ Parents (CW-Main)
• Angel of Might (Ki) or The Angel of Might (RJ)
• Antonius Felix (EC) or Governor Felix (Ap)
• Bartholomew (Di) or Bartholomew (Nathaniel) (Ap)
• Bear (D) or The Bear (RA)
• Belshazzar (Pr) or King Belshazzar (FF2)
• Chief Captain Lysias (Ap) or Claudius Lysias (PC)
• David  (Wa, Ki) or David  (Wa, Ki) or David, the Psalmist (CW) or David, the Shepherd (CW) or King David (P)
• Death & Hades (Wa) or Death (RJ)
• Elymas (Bar-Jesus) the Sorcerer (Ap) or Elymas the Sorcerer (Di, EC)
• Esau (Pa) or Esau, the Hunter (F, P)
• Foretelling Angel (Pa) or The Foretelling Angel (RJ)
• Frog Demons (Or, Wa, P) or The Frog Demons (RJ)
• Guiding Angel (E) or The Guiding Angel (RJ)
• Jacob (D, FF) or Jacob (Israel) (CW)
• James (half-brother of Jesus (Ap) or James, Leader in Jerusalem (PC)
• James Son of Zebedee (Ap) or James, son of Zebedee (H) or James (I)
• Job’s Three Friends (Pi) or Bildad, the Shuhite (RJ)/Eliphaz, the Temanite (RJ)/Zophar, the Naamathite (RJ)
• John (H, I, Pr, P) or John, the Apocalyptist (RJ) or John, the Revelator (RJ)
• Joshua (P-Settlers, P-District) or Joshua, Son of Nun (CW)
• King Abijah (Ki) or King Abijam (RA2)
• Manasseh (Pr) or King Manasseh (Di)
• Mary (B, D, Or, P) or The Woman with Child (RJ)
• Matthew (Di) or Matthew (Levi) (Ap)
• Medium in Endor (CW) or Witch of Endor (Pr, Wa) • Mentor (F) or The Ephesian Mentor (PC)
• Michael (Wa, Ki, AW, P-2017) or Michael, the Archangel (RJ)
• Morg (AW) or Morgan (AW)
• Noah’s Sons (Pa) or Shem (CW)/Ham (CW)/Japheth (CW)
• Pharaoh (A, D, H, Or) or The Hard-Hearted Pharaoh (CW)
• Reassuring Angel (Ap) or Reassuring Angels (EC)
• Roman Jailer (Ap) or The Roman Jailer (EC)
• Samson (J, Or, P) or Samson, the Nazirite (CW)
• Saul (Ap) or Paul (Ap, P)
• Uriah (A, Or) or Uriah the Hittite (RA2)
• Whore of Babylon (Or) or Babylon the Great (Wa) or The Harlot (RJ)
• Woman of Thebez (Wo) or The Woman of Thebez (RA2)

P.S. I tried putting the list in a spoiler, but I couldn't get it to work. If it's possible, that would be great.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:16:04 PM by Noah »
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2018, 01:19:27 PM »
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Redemption is a very small, niche game that does not have funds for commissioning new artwork regularly. When Redemption first started in the 90s, thousands of dollars went towards original artwork that appeared on cards that are now considered too weak to play. Because of that, and instead of opting for public domain artwork for every card, Cactus reuses some of the old artwork that otherwise would be forgotten. I for one would rather see a reuse of original Redemption artwork than public domain artwork.

Per usual, the graphic designer summarized something regarding art much better than I did... ::)
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2018, 01:44:08 PM »
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Redemption is a very small, niche game that does not have funds for commissioning new artwork regularly. When Redemption first started in the 90s, thousands of dollars went towards original artwork that appeared on cards that are now considered too weak to play. Because of that, and instead of opting for public domain artwork for every card, Cactus reuses some of the old artwork that otherwise would be forgotten. I for one would rather see a reuse of original Redemption artwork than public domain artwork.

Per usual, the graphic designer summarized something regarding art much better than I did... ::)

(Ill stop using the word "unique" as that seems to have added a layer of confusion to the discussion).

My confusion isnt grounded in re-using artwork (in fact I think it can be great), it's when artwork is associated with one card "A" and then given to a new card "B" that is different enough that it needs a new name (i.e. Babylon/The whore ["A"] vis-a-vis Babylon the Great["B"]).

Let me attempt to use The seven different trumpet cards from the Warriors Set. They are all different colors so that there is a visual difference. Seven different cards and seven different artworks. Changing the color on the trumpets was necessary because of the differences in cards. It shouldnt matter if the different card is printed in the same set or in a future set?
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2018, 03:14:54 PM »
+1
My confusion isnt grounded in re-using artwork (in fact I think it can be great), it's when artwork is associated with one card "A" and then given to a new card "B" that is different enough that it needs a new name (i.e. Babylon/The whore ["A"] vis-a-vis Babylon the Great["B"]).

I completely agree and understand were you are coming from, but I would argue that what you are describing as being an issue is actually not the case.

Of the handful of examples that have been brought up where old art was used on a new card with a new name, the old card where the art came from is, for all practical purposes, nothing more than kindling/packing material. These "useless" cards practically don't exist. The one exception I can think of off the top of my head being Wrath of Satan/Terrifying Beast. I wonder if there are any other examples of two playable cards that share the same art?

Every single time a "card" has been "reprinted" when a playable version of that "card" already existed, different art has been used.

I totally understand how it would be confusing if there were 2-4 playable cards that existed at the same time where all are different card types/brigades/special abilities, but that is just not the case.

I apologize if I sound dogmatic or argumentative. As this discussion seems to go round and round in circles, a little more clarity/understanding comes with each lap. I'm just trying to be as clear and concise as possible as I understand where you are coming from and as I try to articulate my opinion.
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Re: Elders, some straw for our bricks?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2018, 03:49:28 PM »
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My confusion isnt grounded in re-using artwork (in fact I think it can be great), it's when artwork is associated with one card "A" and then given to a new card "B" that is different enough that it needs a new name (i.e. Babylon/The whore ["A"] vis-a-vis Babylon the Great["B"]).

I completely agree and understand were you are coming from, but I would argue that what you are describing as being an issue is actually not the case.

Of the handful of examples that have been brought up where old art was used on a new card with a new name, the old card where the art came from is, for all practical purposes, nothing more than kindling/packing material. These "useless" cards practically don't exist. The one exception I can think of off the top of my head being Wrath of Satan/Terrifying Beast. I wonder if there are any other examples of two playable cards that share the same art?

Every single time a "card" has been "reprinted" when a playable version of that "card" already existed, different art has been used.

I totally understand how it would be confusing if there were 2-4 playable cards that existed at the same time where all are different card types/brigades/special abilities, but that is just not the case.

I apologize if I sound dogmatic or argumentative. As this discussion seems to go round and round in circles, a little more clarity/understanding comes with each lap. I'm just trying to be as clear and concise as possible as I understand where you are coming from and as I try to articulate my opinion.

(I dont think you sound argumentative in the least)

So, essentially, older cards have been "retired." This "retirement" is justification to use artwork that is now not commonly associated with the old card that people have forgotten exist. A few cards slipped through the cracks (like wrath of satan). That is helpful to know, but I wish it wasnt the case.
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