Author Topic: [Rule Change Proposal] Allow players to look at the cards in their discard pile  (Read 7240 times)

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Since there seemed to be some support for this suggestion in a recent thread, I will create this request now.

Benefits:

1. Players like me who have bad memories will be able to quickly check to see if a legal target from the discard pile is available for cards like Twice Afflicted. They will also be able to see if they already used a card that they have been waiting for.

2. Since there are several cards in the newest starter decks that target the discard pile, this rule will help new players who are still learning the game and the cards. (i.e. "I don't know if I have a Ruth card in my discard pile")

3. There would be no more "implied search" of the discard pile.


Possible problem:

1. Stalling
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Offline Gabe

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Funny you should mention this. It's been discussed by the elders a few times in the past and came up again on our call last week. It's on the list of things to review for the late summer REG update.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Thank you for your consideration.  ;D
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Offline Eragon5

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I second the motion! ;)
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Offline wyatt_marcum

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I would also like to show my support
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Offline jesse

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I also am in favor of this change- in Type 2 it can be quite hard to remember what I have in my discard pile vs deck for a card like Music Leader or A Soldier's Prayer. It would be really nice to be able to check the discard pile first!  :)
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looks like pretty much everyone is down to make the game more fun and the rules less restricting xD

Offline kram1138

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I would be in favour. I don't mind the current state, but I think it would be nice. Any cards that day "search discard" would still count as searches, right?
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Offline h20tor

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I feel like it's a negative player experience NOT to be able to flip through your own discard pile.

Maybe you can't flip through your opponents, but you should at least be able to go through your own.

If you can go through your opponents, it can take some strategy out of T2. 'Do I think my opponent has 3 or 4 copies of X card, they have played 2, chances are they have another one.' Stuff like that
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Offline The Guardian

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While I'm not completely opposed to the idea, it should be considered that allowing a player to view his discard pile at any time could also lead to more opportunities for cheating. Obviously cheating is always a potential issue but if a player is going back and forth quickly from his hand to his discard pile, it would make it that much easier.
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Offline Drrek

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While I'm not completely opposed to the idea, it should be considered that allowing a player to view his discard pile at any time could also lead to more opportunities for cheating. Obviously cheating is always a potential issue but if a player is going back and forth quickly from his hand to his discard pile, it would make it that much easier.

If I wanted to cheat in this game it would already be so hilariously easy, and moving stuff between my hand and discard pile would be more obvious than other ways I could already cheat.  Other games allow you to look at your discard and yet cheaters tend to do things more like stacking their decks than cheat with discard.
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Offline The Guardian

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While I'm not completely opposed to the idea, it should be considered that allowing a player to view his discard pile at any time could also lead to more opportunities for cheating. Obviously cheating is always a potential issue but if a player is going back and forth quickly from his hand to his discard pile, it would make it that much easier.

If I wanted to cheat in this game it would already be so hilariously easy, and moving stuff between my hand and discard pile would be more obvious than other ways I could already cheat.  Other games allow you to look at your discard and yet cheaters tend to do things more like stacking their decks than cheat with discard.

I guess I'm looking at it more from a T2 perspective where I'm going to have 3 or 4 copies of a card and my opponent would have no idea if I managed to slip one from my discard pile to my hand. In T1 that's far less likely to happen since the opponent can say "Wait, didn't you play that card already?"
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Offline dermo4christ

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I am in support of this change as well.

Offline Drrek

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And yet in other games where you are allowed multiple copies of cards in all formats, this is still not a popular form of cheating.  I suspect because this is still a fairly obvious thing to do because you can pay attention to card totals in hand, and since discard piles are available to all you can easily notice if cards start disappearing from them.

We trust people not to cheat in easier ways in this game, I think we have to be able to trust them here.
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Offline jesse

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We trust people not to cheat in easier ways in this game, I think we have to be able to trust them here.

I agree, although The Guardian has a valid point that this does open the door wider for the potential for cheating. Is that the main reason that the discard pile has been off-limits to this point?
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Offline wyatt_marcum

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well, I would think that it is a much harder way to cheat, and a simple way to make it harder is that people need to put their hand down before they look at the discard. that would make it where a player is less likely to take something, and it would be more obvious if they did.
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Offline The Guardian

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well, I would think that it is a much harder way to cheat, and a simple way to make it harder is that people need to put their hand down before they look at the discard. that would make it where a player is less likely to take something, and it would be more obvious if they did.

That's what I was thinking would need to be the guideline for viewing your discard pile if we ended up going that direction. Something like "A player may view his discard pile but must first place his hand face down on the table" (i.e. you cannot view your hand and discard pile together).
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Offline ACe

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well, I would think that it is a much harder way to cheat, and a simple way to make it harder is that people need to put their hand down before they look at the discard. that would make it where a player is less likely to take something, and it would be more obvious if they did.

That's what I was thinking would need to be the guideline for viewing your discard pile if we ended up going that direction. Something like "A player may view his discard pile but must first place his hand face down on the table" (i.e. you cannot view your hand and discard pile together).

I like this Idea! In other games when they cheat it is when they are a able to view the discard and had at same time. Making the rule to put the hand face down on the table is a great idea.
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As a proponent of this change, I would be more than willing to accept a provision where you must lay your hand down before picking up your discard pile. Simple enough way to curb possible cheating.

Offline The Guardian

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Maybe it's not necessary, but a more general rule could also be that you cannot view two "unknown" locations simultaneously. For example, if I use Urim and Thummim to look at my opponent's hand I cannot look back and forth between his hand and mine--I would put my hand down until I was finished looking at his.
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Offline Redoubter

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I don't see any of that being necessary, and "because cheating" is a really weak argument against making this change. We are not venturing into new territory with this proposal, the major competitive card games have had this for...ever, really.  It would be no different for us.

Offline The Guardian

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and "because cheating" is a really weak argument against making this change.

Maybe in this particular case it shouldn't carry much weight (though that is really a matter of opinion, not fact), but personally I think that whenever a rule change is made (no matter how minor it seems) that involves what a player can/cannot do outside of special abilities then the potential for unfair play should be considered.

I only said cheating is something that should be considered in the discussion, not that it should end the discussion, which is why I furthered the idea that wyatt had. 

FTR, I see "because other card games" as a weak argument, but that's just me ;)
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Offline Redoubter

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FTR, I see "because other card games" as a weak argument, but that's just me ;)

That was a counter to the cheating argument, not the justification for the proposal itself ;)

Offline Drrek

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Maybe it's not necessary, but a more general rule could also be that you cannot view two "unknown" locations simultaneously. For example, if I use Urim and Thummim to look at my opponent's hand I cannot look back and forth between his hand and mine--I would put my hand down until I was finished looking at his.

I am very much against this idea.  You may not think other card games is a good argument, but other card games have done this for years without needing these special rules to prevent cheating.  And that's not to say they haven't needed rules to prevent cheating.  But Redemption doesn't have rules to try to stop the easiest ways to cheat like other games do.  Deck stacking would be very easy in Redemption, we don't even have rules on how you have to shuffle your deck.  People pile shuffle at major events, and this a) doesn't randomize your deck and b) can easily be used to stack your deck, but we have no actual rules (at least not in the REG) that prevent people from shuffling this way.  Other games do, and in fact one such game recently had a DQ  for a player who was 10-0 at an event for not shuffling in a way that would properly randomize his deck.   If I wanted to stack my deck in Redemption, I pretty easily could.

Another form of cheating I could easily do in Redemption would be to add and remove cards from my decks in between rounds.  Other games have had problems preventing people from doing this, yet in Redemption we aren't required to even submit decklists for any event below a top cut of nationals.  If a dominant configuration wasn't working out for me in a tournament I could easily just swap a couple out in a tournament, and I doubt anyone would ever be the wiser.  And none of this discussion has even touched on one of the easiest ways to cheat that other games don't have a problem with but Redemption does, hiding souls.  If I want to stick a soul in my artifact pile, I can probably get away with it a lot of the time.

What I'm saying is that, despite the fact that these other forms of cheating have been problematic for other games that have larger tournaments with bigger prize pools for decades, they haven't had a problem with people cheating off being able to view their discard pile, or by being able to view multiple things at once.  And yet, despite the fact that Redemption has obvious vulnerabilities to cheating, there is now apparently a focus on preventing cheating in an area that has demonstrably not been a problem for some reason.

I can't think of a reason to arbitrarily restrict players in the name of "preventing cheating" here when we are clearly willing to trust players to not cheat when given easier opportunities.
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Offline h20tor

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If the discard pile shouldn't be searchable, wouldn't it make more sense to have made it go face down or something to begin with?

Someone could easily just set their cards down in the discard pile with certain cards sticking out further as a reminder.

I can't think of very many strategies that would be crippled by people being able to go through discard piles.
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Offline Gabe

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If the discard pile shouldn't be searchable, wouldn't it make more sense to have made it go face down or something to begin with?

I thought that same thing once too - so it must be a great idea, right?  :)

In practice, two face down piles next to each other are really easy to get mixed up.
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Offline Ironisaac

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In practice, two face down piles next to each other are really easy to get mixed up.

+1
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:32:51 PM by Ironisaac »
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Offline jesse

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Is the rule change being proposed for us to be able to search our decks discard piles at any time? Because it would be nice to search though it while I'm on defense too, for similar reasons as on offense. In T2 with multiple copies of cards, it can be easy to lose track of what is where. It would be nice to check it to calculate if I have one more copy of Belshazzar's Banquet left in my deck (as long as I knew how many I had put in the deck in the first place) before I decide to block with Nebuchadnezzar, versus using a little guy for initiative.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:39:04 PM by jesse »
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kariusvega

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Is the rule change being proposed for us to be able to search our decks at any time? Because it would be nice to search though it while I'm on defense too, for similar reasons as on offense. In T2 with multiple copies of cards, it can be easy to lose track of what is where. It would be nice to check to see if I have that one last copy of Belshazzar's Banquet left in my deck before I decide to block with Nebuchadnezzar, versus using a little guy for initiative.

no, only discard pile

Offline jesse

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haha sorry I meant discard pile!  :P
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Offline The Guardian

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they haven't had a problem with people cheating off being able to view their discard pile, or by being able to view multiple things at once.

That kind of begs the question, is it not a problem because players aren't abusing it or is it not a problem because no one is getting caught doing it because it's so easy to abuse? You want to talk about easy ways to cheat, if I was able to look at my discard pile while still holding my hand it would be incredibly easy to slide cards over.

We can go back and forth all day--I said from the beginning that I'm not completely opposed. I've never liked being a rules lawyer when it came to making someone decide which pile they are searching with a Music Leader-type ability before they actually search. However, I just want us to consider the cheating aspect, that is all.
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Offline h20tor

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I thought that same thing once too - so it must be a great idea, right?  :)

Well if I don't feel special now haha

In practice, two face down piles next to each other are really easy to get mixed up.

I was thinking the exact same thing... I guess simplest solution is make it searchable  ;)
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Offline Noah

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I believe that the biggest differences between the deck and discard piles currently is that there are abilities that target cards on the top or bottom of a deck but there are not cards that have the same criteria for targeting cards in a discard pile. Thus, the order of cards in the discard pile has never really been significant, other than being able to see what the top card is.

Aside from malicious manipulation of cards, I believe there are no real negatives to allowing players to look through their discard pile. In fact, I know it would alleviate a lot of regret from players who have accidentally wasted a rescue attempt by using Oak to search their discard pile only to find that there was no judge, myself included.
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Offline jesse

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I agree that there doesn't seem to be any major drawbacks from allowing players to search their discard piles while there are definite advantages (which have been listed). Similarly, there doesn't seem to be any drawback of restricting players from searching multiple face-up piles (such as hand and discard pile) simultaneously, but there is the definite advantage of curbing cheating as well as accidents of mixing piles, switching cards, etc. (which new players are much more prone to but can still happen to anybody). It seems wisest to put in the restriction that The Guardian is suggesting where you can only search the discard pile with your hand face-down.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 03:25:28 PM by jesse »
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Offline Drrek

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I agree that there doesn't seem to be any major drawbacks from allowing players to search their discard piles while there are definite advantages (which have been listed). Similarly, there doesn't seem to be any drawback of restricting players from searching multiple face-up piles (such as hand and discard pile) simultaneously, but there is the definite advantage of curbing cheating as well as accidents of mixing piles, switching cards, etc. (which new players are much more prone to but can still happen to anybody). It seems wisest to put in the restriction that The Guardian is suggesting where you can only search the discard pile with your hand face-down.

There is certainly a disadvantage to the rule Guardian suggested.  It arbitrarily restricts players from doing natural actions for no real benefit with a rule that will only ever serve to unfairly rules lawyer people if it is ever enforced.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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I think that having a procedure in writing is always a good thing, especially if it limits opportunities for cheating. I would support the idea of only being able to manipulate one pile at a time. I would certainly not support someone having their discard pile and their hand together as the player decides.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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If this rule is to be changed, it should be changed to allow a player to look at cards in *any* discard pile.  Given that players are forced to discard face up, there is no reason that the discard pile should be treated as hidden information.

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If this rule is to be changed, it should be changed to allow a player to look at cards in *any* discard pile.  Given that players are forced to discard face up, there is no reason that the discard pile should be treated as hidden information.
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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If this rule is to be changed, it should be changed to allow a player to look at cards in *any* discard pile.  Given that players are forced to discard face up, there is no reason that the discard pile should be treated as hidden information.

I agree with this being the case in Type-1. Type-2 is already slow enough without players thumbing through discard piles occasionally.

Offline Redoubter

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If this rule is to be changed, it should be changed to allow a player to look at cards in *any* discard pile.  Given that players are forced to discard face up, there is no reason that the discard pile should be treated as hidden information.

I agree with this being the case in Type-1. Type-2 is already slow enough without players thumbing through discard piles occasionally.

We already have a limit on time per phase, and that's not even something that has to be enforced (I've never had to as a judge).  That would not change if you could look at your discard pile.  We also have far fewer interactions with discard pile than many other games that have seen no real time issues stem from their allowance of discard pile viewing (for instance, we don't have a bunch of enhancements that can play themselves out of discard).

I'd also say that we can't have a set of rules about "viewable" in one type and not the other, and so unless there is a really good reason this is a T2 issue (not seen it yet), then I'd say it's fine to go in both.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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I agree that there doesn't seem to be any major drawbacks from allowing players to search their discard piles while there are definite advantages (which have been listed). Similarly, there doesn't seem to be any drawback of restricting players from searching multiple face-up piles (such as hand and discard pile) simultaneously, but there is the definite advantage of curbing cheating as well as accidents of mixing piles, switching cards, etc. (which new players are much more prone to but can still happen to anybody). It seems wisest to put in the restriction that The Guardian is suggesting where you can only search the discard pile with your hand face-down.

There is certainly a disadvantage to the rule Guardian suggested.  It arbitrarily restricts players from doing natural actions for no real benefit with a rule that will only ever serve to unfairly rules lawyer people if it is ever enforced.

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How about:

"A player may look at cards in any known location (His face-down cards, his hand, either player's discard pile, his artifact pile, or a deck or opponent's hand during a qualifying search, reveal or look ability) even while abilities are completing but may only handle one type of card at a time."

The language could be simplified I'm sure but I think something to that effect would have the positives of both not tempting cheating and allowing players the freedom to consider their options when using a search or look at opponent's hand ability, for example, which is usually more-or-less how players handle the cards intuitively.
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Offline CountFount

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I just saw this post. I'm for it. That being said, I think that length of time for a turn is becoming more and more a challenge to control especially in Type 2. Consider making clocks a part of game play. It seems that the reoccurring complaint, especially in competitive games and especially at the end of a game, is time.  There is probably an App that can help.
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There actually are time limits already. It rarely comes up but Karius and I had to start actually using timers in Teams last year.
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Offline megamanlan

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I see that this has not been responded to on this thread, but has the rule been updated or anything? I see several Elder's supporting this proposal, but I can't seem to find anything that says if it was confirmed.
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

kariusvega

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+1
yes dc pile is now a known location and you may check it at any time without using a special ability

Offline megamanlan

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  • Autobots! Transform and play Redemption!
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    • North Central Region
Yay!
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

 


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