Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Market => Topic started by: jtay on August 21, 2011, 01:48:14 AM
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With the past few sets the game has gone in a direction that goes against the reason I started playing in the first place. Not sure yet what I'm going to do about it (I'm really indecisive). In case I do decide to give it up for good, how much do you think I could get for my cards?
The "good" stuff:
1 Complete factory set minus the NJ promo (still got the warriors one)
Ultra Rares/Promos:
A New Beginning
Angel at Shur
Balance
Battering Ram
Burial Shroud
Crucify Him
Emperor Nero
Failed Objective
Goshen
Great Mourning
Guardian of Your Souls
Harvest Time
Household Idols
John
Joseph in Prison
Judas Iscariot
Leviathan
Morg
Moses and Elders
Name of the Lord
Panic Demon
Philosophy
Pierced Heart
Prosperity
Rhoda
Satan's Folly
Shield of Faith
Ship to Cyprus
Siegeworks
Spirit as a Dove
Thirty Pieces of Silver
Thorn in the Flesh
Three Nails
Windows of Narrow Light
TexP:
Angel of Warning
Astrologers
Attending Angel
Consuming Fire
Damsel with Spirit of Divination
Divination
Enchanter
Entrapping Pharisees
Gates of Hell
Herod's Dungeon
Herod's Treachery
High Places
Image of Jealousy
Magic Charms
Proud Pharisee
Rash Oath
Salome
Samaritan Water Jar
Stalks of Flax
User of Curious Arts
Wandering Spirit
Other:
Haman's Plot x1
Lost Soul (anti-burial)
I have very little FooF/RoA. I never bought any tins and only traded for a couple of non- "high demand" cards here and there. Don't know which ones off the top of my head. I have no disciples or whatever the new set is.
There are also ~1000 other C/UC/R cards that aren't listed here.
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I really would encourage you not to give up just yet. Try and take a few months off and rest up. Come back and see if it's what you like. If not, don't expect to get more than $150 per lot of cards. I'd suggest breaking what you've got up into two different lots.
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With the past few sets the game has gone in a direction that goes against the reason I started playing in the first place. Not sure yet what I'm going to do about it (I'm really indecisive). In case I do decide to give it up for good, how much do you think I could get for my cards?
The "good" stuff:
1 Complete factory set minus the NJ promo (still got the warriors one)
Ultra Rares/Promos:
A New Beginning
Angel at Shur
Balance
Battering Ram
Burial Shroud
Crucify Him
Emperor Nero
Failed Objective
Goshen
Great Mourning
Guardian of Your Souls
Harvest Time
Household Idols
John
Joseph in Prison
Judas Iscariot
Leviathan
Morg
Moses and Elders
Name of the Lord
Panic Demon
Philosophy
Pierced Heart
Prosperity
Rhoda
Satan's Folly
Shield of Faith
Ship to Cyprus
Siegeworks
Spirit as a Dove
Thirty Pieces of Silver
Thorn in the Flesh
Three Nails
Windows of Narrow Light
TexP:
Angel of Warning
Astrologers
Attending Angel
Consuming Fire
Damsel with Spirit of Divination
Divination
Enchanter
Entrapping Pharisees
Gates of Hell
Herod's Dungeon
Herod's Treachery
High Places
Image of Jealousy
Magic Charms
Proud Pharisee
Rash Oath
Salome
Samaritan Water Jar
Stalks of Flax
User of Curious Arts
Wandering Spirit
Other:
Haman's Plot x1
Lost Soul (anti-burial)
I have very little FooF/RoA. I never bought any tins and only traded for a couple of non- "high demand" cards here and there. Don't know which ones off the top of my head. I have no disciples or whatever the new set is.
There are also ~1000 other C/UC/R cards that aren't listed here.
I really have to admit I don't like the direction the game has gone as well... I started playing the game in '95? Well, whenever it was back when there were no expansions. I remember when you had to be patient to make your move. I remember when the game wasn't overpowered and cards worked the they said on the card. I remember real battle phases. (played a game yesterday when the guy I faced quasi-rescued just to draw cards 4 times in a row) I will always be a fan for nostalgic purposes, yet I miss the days when you could use your enhancements and they worked... Just my 2 cents.
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I really have to admit I don't like the direction the game has gone as well... I started playing the game in '95? Well, whenever it was back when there were no expansions. I remember when you had to be patient to make your move. I remember when the game wasn't overpowered and cards worked the they said on the card.
Yeah I started playing back in '95 too, and the game was so lame that I quit playing it for a decade. Sure the cards weren't overpowered, because they were "no powered". They were just 4/4 heroes fighting 6/6 ECs with everyone throwing 2/2 enhancements that didn't do anything.
I remember real battle phases. (played a game yesterday when the guy I faced quasi-rescued just to draw cards 4 times in a row) I will always be a fan for nostalgic purposes, yet I miss the days when you could use your enhancements and they worked... Just my 2 cents.
I totally agree with you that it is the battle phase that makes Redemption fun. But that phase is stronger now than it has been in many years. At this point I can have more battles than ever before. If they beat my 1st guy, I can use Unknown Nation to bring in someone else. If they beat them I can bring in my EC that is face-down on that LS sitting in a multi-colored site. If they beat them I can capture them with Magic Charms sitting on my magician in my territory. If they have more than 2 heroes, then I can discard my Gates of Hell to bring in yet another EC and keep fighting. And all of that is in one turn, and all of it is with enhancements thrown that affect the battle in a variety of ways (capture, discard, remove, forced withdrawl, ignore, and now even decrease, etc.). The battle phase is awesome at this point in the life of Redemption.
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I really have to admit I don't like the direction the game has gone as well... I started playing the game in '95? Well, whenever it was back when there were no expansions. I remember when you had to be patient to make your move. I remember when the game wasn't overpowered and cards worked the they said on the card.
Yeah I started playing back in '95 too, and the game was so lame that I quit playing it for a decade. Sure the cards weren't overpowered, because they were "no powered". They were just 4/4 heroes fighting 6/6 ECs with everyone throwing 2/2 enhancements that didn't do anything.
I remember real battle phases. (played a game yesterday when the guy I faced quasi-rescued just to draw cards 4 times in a row) I will always be a fan for nostalgic purposes, yet I miss the days when you could use your enhancements and they worked... Just my 2 cents.
I totally agree with you that it is the battle phase that makes Redemption fun. But that phase is stronger now than it has been in many years. At this point I can have more battles than ever before. If they beat my 1st guy, I can use Unknown Nation to bring in someone else. If they beat them I can bring in my EC that is face-down on that LS sitting in a multi-colored site. If they beat them I can capture them with Magic Charms sitting on my magician in my territory. If they have more than 2 heroes, then I can discard my Gates of Hell to bring in yet another EC and keep fighting. And all of that is in one turn, and all of it is with enhancements thrown that affect the battle in a variety of ways (capture, discard, remove, forced withdrawl, ignore, and now even decrease, etc.). The battle phase is awesome at this point in the life of Redemption.
Don't get me wrong, expansions have made the game better, but I stopped collecting after the priests expansion... It would be nice if the expansions were used to incorporate the old cards not just completely OP them out of the game... To each his own.
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Don't get me wrong, expansions have made the game better, but I stopped collecting after the priests expansion...
This doesn't even make sense. If the expansions have made the game better, then why stop getting them. And if you don't have anything past the set that came out 5 years ago, then naturally you wouldn't have very interesting battles. Almost all the cards that I mentioned making better battles (Site guard LS, Gates of Hell, Magic Charms) came out after that point.
It would be nice if the expansions were used to incorporate the old cards not just completely OP them out of the game... To each his own.
Actually the expansions ARE used to incorportate old cards. Just looking at fortresses, the set after Priests (FooF) included Zerubbabel's Temple which got people playing some of those Z-temple teal guys from the Priests set. The next set (RoA) included The Garden Tomb, which got people playing several old cards that noone had used in a while (like Peter). The next set (TxP) included Phillistine Outpost, which got people playing cards like Fallen Warrior who hadn't been used in a long time. The next set (Di) had "Fishing Boat" and "Dust and Ashes", which got people playing Andrew and Job for the first time in many years. And this last set (Txp2, RoA2) has Tower of Thebez, which will probably get people playing some other characters who haven't seen the light of a tournament in a long time.
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I am curious if someone could generate a percentage of decks in the top 20 of open-deck categories that used TGT or Disciples. We could even throw in Genesis to complete the pre-block ignore/protect decks in general. I know that we say we have added cards to thwart pre-block pwnage, but were those decks actually stopped at Nats?
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8/10 of the top ten at nats were TGT or Di.
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8/10 of the top ten at nats were TGT or Di.
yeaa... TGT was hard to stop with suzzy trolling, DI were hard to stop with Thad abuse, and on offense I thought Heretics were hard to get past with Creepers.
After this new set, I can certainly see Disciples being played way less. TGT is far more popular in multi play though, and i don't necessarily see that changing, not much anyhow. Heretics... dunno
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7/10 of the top ten at nats were TGT or Di.
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That was in T1-2p.
@Wrath, there was your anti meta troll, the FBTNB, what else?
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Prof's FBTNB.
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You say it goes against why you started playing it... may I ask then, why you started playing? I feel this new set did nothing but improve the game.
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8/10 of the top ten at nats were TGT or Di.
At least that is a partial improvement. In each of the two Nats before 2011 7 of the top 10 (guessing here) were TGT. So the latest set broadened the deck variety by one additional theme. :P
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I have to say, its funny how everyone went running around going TGT IS DEAD! TGT IS DEAD! because of Golgotha. I have a feeling it will actually take a bigger hit this time thanks to the oodles of anti-fort we just got. (An Assyrian siege army from hand is painful.)
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thats the problem with the counters, they're very limited in scope that people will refuse to deck them because they serve no other purpose outside of countering one specific thing. asa is a step in the right direction as it nails other things as well and is generally overall pretty powerful.
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If everyone played Golgatha, TGT would only be mostly dead. There's still some nice things about NT White
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If everyone played Golgatha, TGT would only be mostly dead. There's still some nice things about NT White
I love my white women ::)
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I have to say, its funny how everyone went running around going TGT IS DEAD! TGT IS DEAD! because of Golgotha. I have a feeling it will actually take a bigger hit this time thanks to the oodles of anti-fort we just got. (An Assyrian siege army from hand is painful.)
So what you're saying is that TGT WILL BE DEAD THIS TIME! TGT WILL BE DEAD THIS TIME!
Unfortunately I am making my prediction that pre-block ignore/protect will still represent more than half of the top decks at next year's Nats. As MJB pointed out, however, the trend seems to be that next year it will be 90% of the top decks. Frankly, if the top players in the game are using them, why wouldn't a new player do the same...especially if they were one of the other 80 players that lost to them at Nats.
I say all this because we have to realize people like jtay and theselfevident seem to have a legitimate argument, whether we want to admit it or not. There is no Battle Phase with pre-block ignore/protect.
Now, with that said, jtay and theselfevident, Redemption will continue to go through changes until powerful and plentiful counters are created. I remember when FBTN heroes also took away the Battle Phase for awhile. Once the plethora of CBN cards came, there was at least hope for a Battle Phase. I would encourage you to give it some time.
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Not to mention the TGT offense is the easiest of the top strategies to get. You buy one tin and you've got half the cards already. That's one the things I didn't like about the tins being labelled and numbered, make it random like boosters. I guess in a way I can understand why they did that but idk I just think it would have been more fun if you truly didn't know what was coming in the tin until you opened it.
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It doesn't matter what Cactus prints (within reason), TGT will be top tier if people try to fit their defense into 8 cards.
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You've still got five booster packs to open.
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It doesn't matter what Cactus prints (within reason), TGT will be top tier if people try to fit their defense into 8 cards.
Thats me :D If you saw my offense though you'd understand why my defense has to be that small. There just isn't room in my deck
You've still got five booster packs to open.
Still not the same though, you know before even buying the tin that TGT is in there.
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It doesn't matter what Cactus prints (within reason), TGT will be top tier if people try to fit their defense into 8 cards.
I agree. But then people are forced to build bigger decks, which isn't going to win tournaments either, especially against that 50-card TGT deck. ;)
Understand that I am not trying to argue here, but rather just legitimize the claims of those that feel the new cards have been going in a direction that some players do not want to see.
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If everyone played Golgatha, TGT would only be mostly dead. There's still some nice things about NT White
If everyone played Golgotha and an NT defense...
You really can't leave that point out Kittens. So the counter to reduced deck variety on the offense was to severely curtail variety on the defense.
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I have to say, its funny how everyone went running around going TGT IS DEAD! TGT IS DEAD! because of Golgotha. I have a feeling it will actually take a bigger hit this time thanks to the oodles of anti-fort we just got. (An Assyrian siege army from hand is painful.)
You can't block with Assyrian Siege Army, I'm ignoring you...
Not to mention the TGT offense is the easiest of the top strategies to get. You buy one tin and you've got half the cards already. That's one the things I didn't like about the tins being labelled and numbered, make it random like boosters. I guess in a way I can understand why they did that but idk I just think it would have been more fun if you truly didn't know what was coming in the tin until you opened it.
Plus that tin goes extremely well with the last starter.
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Not to mention the TGT offense is the easiest of the top strategies to get. You buy one tin and you've got half the cards already. That's one the things I didn't like about the tins being labelled and numbered, make it random like boosters. I guess in a way I can understand why they did that but idk I just think it would have been more fun if you truly didn't know what was coming in the tin until you opened it.
Plus that tin goes extremely well with the last starter.
Until recently that's basically what my deck was. I had some better card splashed in but it if your a new player why wouldn't you just get that starter and the TGT tin, you already going to be semi competitive.
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If everyone played Golgatha, TGT would only be mostly dead. There's still some nice things about NT White
If everyone played Golgotha and an NT defense...
You really can't leave that point out Kittens. So the counter to reduced deck variety on the offense was to severely curtail variety on the defense.
I kinda meant that by "played Golgatha," but it's probably better to point that out.
Until recently that's basically what my deck was. I had some better card splashed in but it if your a new player why wouldn't you just get that starter and the TGT tin, you already going to be semi competitive.
It's easy to make new players semi-competitive? What's wrong with that?
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Also, was Peter's Curse ever used to hit TGT at nats, or did everyone just forget about that card?
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I took it out of my deck the night before nats. I really didn't need it...
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Thats because it's not good.
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peters curse is one of the worse techs against tgt.
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No, it's because I had about 4 other ways to get rid of or around TGT.
Massive amount of characters
Destructive Sin
A-Bomb
Gates of Hell
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JTAY-
Looking at your cards, I would probably say they are worth $200 nowadays after the extreme price drop in AP/PA ultra-rares/rares (assuming they are all at least NM). $100 of that is the factory set.
Do you really want to quit the game for just $200?
If you simply really need the money, just sell the factory set for $100, and keep the rest to play with.
Just my thoughts. I understand the need for money. It's why I have sold most of my cards. Unlike you though, I had over $1000 invested in the game. That's a more meaningful chunk of money.
I hope you stick with it :)
Nick
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It's easy to make new players semi-competitive? What's wrong with that?
What's wrong with every new player using TGT decks? Is that your question?
I would guess that the people who "don't like where the game is going" have two typical complaints:
1. Most decks from major tournaments last year were the same basic two offenses (no variety).
2. The decks from #1 are intended to not let your opponent play any cards (i.e. no real Battle Phase).
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2. The decks from #1 are intended to not let your opponent play any cards (i.e. no real Battle Phase).
Disagree. This is the case with TGT (less so this year), but not Disciples. I had tons of fun battles playing against disciples.
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It's easy to make new players semi-competitive? What's wrong with that?
What's wrong with every new player using TGT decks? Is that your question?
I don't care if it's TGT, Di, PSAT or LMNOP. If new players can get their hands on good cards, that's a good thing. Or do you big boys like beating up on new players because they can't afford a KoT?
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yes. such is the case with any ccg. money > n00bs.
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You say it goes against why you started playing it... may I ask then, why you started playing? I feel this new set did nothing but improve the game.
I actually started playing first of all because I had always wanted to play a trading card game. There were lots of cards, lots of rules, and lots of room for creativity. I feel like the game has lost some potential for creativity. With the introduction of themes, it has become really hard to think outside the box and still be effective. And I practically live outside the box. I would estimate that 50-75% of the cards introduced since FooF have read something like, "If you are playing with theme X, do something awesome. Otherwise, this card is pretty useless." This essentially turns deck building into a process of selecting an offense theme from column A and a defense theme from column B. Your choices of what you can effectively play with within those themes are pretty limited, and you wind up with a core set of "required" cards that occupies 90% or more of your deck. Then there's only a few spots left for you to actually be creative with your card selection.
In a nutshell, I'm thinking of quitting because it has become just too hard to be a scrub (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html). I naturally tend to fight against the imposed theme system, but I've discovered that there is virtually no way for me to win without embracing it. And I'm not talking about winning any tournaments here; as a scrub, I am perfectly aware of the unlikelihood of winning with self-imposed play restrictions. What I do strive for is to successfully use some sort of obscure tactic and win maybe one game in ten. Themes have made this hard, because when a new set is released, very few/none of the cards benefit whatever obscure tactics I've devised.
I never played the game to win. I played to have "fun." With the introduction of many powerful theme-only cards, it's hard to have "fun" anymore. For me the difference between winning and "fun" is like the difference between MMA and Tricking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNxZ3svIs8#). Tricking is not really useful in an actual fight, but you look absolutely AWESOME while doing it. Under normal circumstances, MMA looks dull by comparison.
JTAY-
Looking at your cards, I would probably say they are worth $200 nowadays after the extreme price drop in AP/PA ultra-rares/rares (assuming they are all at least NM). $100 of that is the factory set.
Do you really want to quit the game for just $200?
If you simply really need the money, just sell the factory set for $100, and keep the rest to play with.
Just my thoughts. I understand the need for money. It's why I have sold most of my cards. Unlike you though, I had over $1000 invested in the game. That's a more meaningful chunk of money.
I hope you stick with it :)
Nick
I actually might be willing to quit for $200. I don't exactly need the money right now, but there's a lot of other cool stuff out there that I could buy with that $200 that I would get more use out of. I never expected to get much of my investment in the game back. I think I got a good portion of it back in the amount of fun I had with it over the years. That's really the most you can expect from a game that doesn't have much collectible value.
And on an unrelated note, can we keep the thread-jacking to a minimum here? I would appreciate it if you would take your complaints against various strategies elsewhere. I wish I'd been around to post this earlier before things got out of hand.
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You just have to use themes that nobody else are using.
Or use massive defense. That's really fun.
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What I wouldn't give to have a hobby I could do for $200 dollars. that won't even buy my skates in hockey, and if you buy a computer for $200 you might be able to play solitaire till it dies.
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You say it goes against why you started playing it... may I ask then, why you started playing? I feel this new set did nothing but improve the game.
I actually started playing first of all because I had always wanted to play a trading card game. There were lots of cards, lots of rules, and lots of room for creativity. I feel like the game has lost some potential for creativity. With the introduction of themes, it has become really hard to think outside the box and still be effective. And I practically live outside the box. I would estimate that 50-75% of the cards introduced since FooF have read something like, "If you are playing with theme X, do something awesome. Otherwise, this card is pretty useless." This essentially turns deck building into a process of selecting an offense theme from column A and a defense theme from column B. Your choices of what you can effectively play with within those themes are pretty limited, and you wind up with a core set of "required" cards that occupies 90% or more of your deck. Then there's only a few spots left for you to actually be creative with your card selection.
In a nutshell, I'm thinking of quitting because it has become just too hard to be a scrub (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html). I naturally tend to fight against the imposed theme system, but I've discovered that there is virtually no way for me to win without embracing it. And I'm not talking about winning any tournaments here; as a scrub, I am perfectly aware of the unlikelihood of winning with self-imposed play restrictions. What I do strive for is to successfully use some sort of obscure tactic and win maybe one game in ten. Themes have made this hard, because when a new set is released, very few/none of the cards benefit whatever obscure tactics I've devised.
I never played the game to win. I played to have "fun." With the introduction of many powerful theme-only cards, it's hard to have "fun" anymore. For me the difference between winning and "fun" is like the difference between MMA and Tricking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNxZ3svIs8#). Tricking is not really useful in an actual fight, but you look absolutely AWESOME while doing it. Under normal circumstances, MMA looks dull by comparison.
JTAY-
Looking at your cards, I would probably say they are worth $200 nowadays after the extreme price drop in AP/PA ultra-rares/rares (assuming they are all at least NM). $100 of that is the factory set.
Do you really want to quit the game for just $200?
If you simply really need the money, just sell the factory set for $100, and keep the rest to play with.
Just my thoughts. I understand the need for money. It's why I have sold most of my cards. Unlike you though, I had over $1000 invested in the game. That's a more meaningful chunk of money.
I hope you stick with it :)
Nick
I actually might be willing to quit for $200. I don't exactly need the money right now, but there's a lot of other cool stuff out there that I could buy with that $200 that I would get more use out of. I never expected to get much of my investment in the game back. I think I got a good portion of it back in the amount of fun I had with it over the years. That's really the most you can expect from a game that doesn't have much collectible value.
And on an unrelated note, can we keep the thread-jacking to a minimum here? I would appreciate it if you would take your complaints against various strategies elsewhere. I wish I'd been around to post this earlier before things got out of hand.
My apologies if you feel I jacked your thread. I was just trying to agree with you. Plus 1 to you...
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You just have to use themes that nobody else are using.
Or use massive defense. That's really fun.
It still wouldn't fix the problem of there being a large core to whatever theme that I picked, regardless of how many people use it. Nor would it change the fact that it's still a theme. I don't like the fact that Cactus is defining all the useful strategies now. That should be up to the creativity of the players.
And believe me, I've tried the whole big defense thing. I loved trying to build turtle decks, but a theme-less turtle defense still gets destroyed by any of the offense themes available.
What I wouldn't give to have a hobby I could do for $200 dollars. that won't even buy my skates in hockey, and if you buy a computer for $200 you might be able to play solitaire till it dies.
Yeah it's unfortunate how little $200 can buy nowadays. I would probably put it towards some new music composition software/hardware. Even if this game had everything I wanted in a card game, it's still nothing compared to music composition in my mind. There are virtually NO creativity limits with that.
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Cactus should be the one defining all the strategies. They're the ones making the game.
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Cactus should be the one defining all the strategies. They're the ones making the game.
I agree that they should define some strategies. But when the only useful strategies are the ones that they have defined, that's when I take issue with it. If it weren't for players' creativity would we have ever had Heroless, Speed, or some of the other older strategies? I think that only half of Cactus's job should be to define strategies and the other half should be to react to the strategies that the players come up with.
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What I do strive for is to successfully use some sort of obscure tactic and win maybe one game in ten. Themes have made this hard, because when a new set is released, very few/none of the cards benefit whatever obscure tactics I've devised.
I never played the game to win. I played to have "fun."
I have for the most part done the same thing. However, to use the word "theme" like you have been is difficult, because any "tactic" you devise could be considered a theme.
I have played the following "themes/tactics"----
Offense:
Disciples
The Garden Tomb
FBTN Banding
FBTN
Genesis
Play-first
Judges
Defense:
Syrians
Emperors
Assyrians
Babylonians
Pharisees
Banding
Magician/Demons
Immunity
FBTN
Snipers
Battle Stoppers
I have always had the most fun playing defenses and offenses that people didn't expect, such as Judges, FBTN banding, Snipers, Battle Stoppers. Nowadays, with the new set, I think there are enough effective and unique ways to splash multiple brigades, that more creativity will be reintroduced to the game. Consequently, I don't think I've ever played a deck with less than 5 brigades (as least 3 cards of each color). My current deck uses all but 2 brigades I think.
JTAY-
Looking at your cards, I would probably say they are worth $200 nowadays after the extreme price drop in AP/PA ultra-rares/rares (assuming they are all at least NM). $100 of that is the factory set.
Do you really want to quit the game for just $200?
If you simply really need the money, just sell the factory set for $100, and keep the rest to play with.
Just my thoughts. I understand the need for money. It's why I have sold most of my cards. Unlike you though, I had over $1000 invested in the game. That's a more meaningful chunk of money.
I hope you stick with it :)
Nick
I actually might be willing to quit for $200. I don't exactly need the money right now, but there's a lot of other cool stuff out there that I could buy with that $200 that I would get more use out of. I never expected to get much of my investment in the game back. I think I got a good portion of it back in the amount of fun I had with it over the years. That's really the most you can expect from a game that doesn't have much collectible value.
$200 for a fun thoughtful hobby is a great deal, especially one that has such great fellowship in Him. I was just out shopping for a new mountainboard and the one I was is $400, and that doesn't include the kite, harness, brake kit, etc (another $700).
And on an unrelated note, can we keep the thread-jacking to a minimum here? I would appreciate it if you would take your complaints against various strategies elsewhere. I wish I'd been around to post this earlier before things got out of hand.
I agree^
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The truth of the matter, jtay, is that you can't really post a thread that says "thinking about quitting the game" without getting people to try to convince you that you shouldn't. It's happened too many times to count where people do what you do, and for better or worse, people get involved.
From a design perspective, playtesters worry about two things: making cards that everyone uses (bad) and making cards that no one uses (worse). The main reason themes are so popular nowadays is that we don't want to make cards that everyone will use, so we say that the card is only useful for certain strategies. For example, what if Thaddeus had said "X=# of your Heroes in play". Why wouldn't someone use him? He would go in every deck with a sizable offense. The reason we made Assyrian Siege Army require another Assyrian in play was that if we didn't have that requirement, he would probably go in every deck.
The other nice thing about themes is one of the primary focuses in the game. They help people to see the Biblical interaction between characters in the Bible. For example, why does Terrifying Beast band with a Roman Emperor? Well, doing a little looking into, someone could learn that the four beasts represented the four successive major Kingdoms of the earth from Babylon to Rome. Why does Joseph protect sons of Jacob from discard? Well, because he literally did protect his brothers from starvation and near certain death. So many more examples just like that.
If you do decide to quit the game, we are sorry that you feel the way you do, and if we could convince you not to, we would. But hopefully whoever buys your collection will have fun and think it a fun game, and that the time you spent building up your collection will have been valuable to others, as I hope it has been to you.
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Prof's FBTNB.
2 of the top 4 decks at Nats were NOT TGT or Disciples. And for the record, my deck was not FBTNB. I'll do a detailed write up of things one of these days :)
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Prof's FBTNB.
2 of the top 4 decks at Nats were NOT TGT or Disciples. And for the record, my deck was not FBTNB. I'll do a detailed write up of things one of these days :)
I think you are ignoring the fact the Wester used Disciples 3 games and built a deck designed to counter disciples. That's equivalent to playing disciples from the perspective that he saw them as so widespread at the top tables that he wanted to play a counter deck.
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I think you are ignoring the fact the Wester used Disciples 3 games and built a deck designed to counter disciples. That's equivalent to playing disciples from the perspective that he saw them as so widespread at the top tables that he wanted to play a counter deck.
And on my way to 4th place, I only saw Disciples once, and beat them, and did NOT play a deck designed against them at all.
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I think you are ignoring the fact the Wester used Disciples 3 games and built a deck designed to counter disciples. That's equivalent to playing disciples from the perspective that he saw them as so widespread at the top tables that he wanted to play a counter deck.
And on my way to 4th place, I only saw Disciples once, and beat them, and did NOT play a deck designed against them at all.
And the highest placers you played finished in 11th, 13th, and 14th. I personally only played DISC/TGT 4 times, but I also spent most of the tournament hanging in the 15-30 range until the end. People who played at the top table most of the tournament saw a repeated dose of Disciples and TGT and have said that. It's also been repeatedly noted that DISC/TGT took 7/10 top spots (8 if you want to count Wester's 3rd place). Just because you "didn't see them" doesn't mean they weren't there.
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The truth of the matter, jtay, is that you can't really post a thread that says "thinking about quitting the game" without getting people to try to convince you that you shouldn't. It's happened too many times to count where people do what you do, and for better or worse, people get involved.
From a design perspective, playtesters worry about two things: making cards that everyone uses (bad) and making cards that no one uses (worse). The main reason themes are so popular nowadays is that we don't want to make cards that everyone will use, so we say that the card is only useful for certain strategies. For example, what if Thaddeus had said "X=# of your Heroes in play". Why wouldn't someone use him? He would go in every deck with a sizable offense. The reason we made Assyrian Siege Army require another Assyrian in play was that if we didn't have that requirement, he would probably go in every deck.
The other nice thing about themes is one of the primary focuses in the game. They help people to see the Biblical interaction between characters in the Bible. For example, why does Terrifying Beast band with a Roman Emperor? Well, doing a little looking into, someone could learn that the four beasts represented the four successive major Kingdoms of the earth from Babylon to Rome. Why does Joseph protect sons of Jacob from discard? Well, because he literally did protect his brothers from starvation and near certain death. So many more examples just like that.
If you do decide to quit the game, we are sorry that you feel the way you do, and if we could convince you not to, we would. But hopefully whoever buys your collection will have fun and think it a fun game, and that the time you spent building up your collection will have been valuable to others, as I hope it has been to you.
I appreciate the post, and everything you said is true. When I posted this, a part of me was hoping that people would convince me to stay. It's still a great game, but my reasons for wanting to quit are still the same as they were in my other post. If someone can convincingly show me that it is possible to successfully play without Cactus-defined themes and that outside the box deck building has any potential, I'll definitely reconsider.
And I can certainly see why themes are a good thing. I 100% agree with the reasons that you listed. It just happens to be the case that they also push away people with a gaming mentality like mine; admittedly, people like me are a pretty small minority. Additionally, I live in a location where virtually no one plays this game, which means casual games with friends and noobs are right out. I'm limited to online play for the most part where the caliber of players is on average pretty high, and thus successfully winning 1 game in 10 with an unusual play strategy becomes MUCH more difficult.
Actually, allow me to retract my first statement. The only thing that I believe is untrue about what you said is that creating cards that no one uses is bad. This assumes that by "no one" you mean "approximately no one." I absolutely love cards that approximately no one uses. This means that that fewer people have put much thought into them, leaving me, the guy who lives outside the box, to explore new obscure ideas that utilize them.
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The truth of the matter, jtay, is that you can't really post a thread that says "thinking about quitting the game" without getting people to try to convince you that you shouldn't. It's happened too many times to count where people do what you do, and for better or worse, people get involved.
From a design perspective, playtesters worry about two things: making cards that everyone uses (bad) and making cards that no one uses (worse). The main reason themes are so popular nowadays is that we don't want to make cards that everyone will use, so we say that the card is only useful for certain strategies. For example, what if Thaddeus had said "X=# of your Heroes in play". Why wouldn't someone use him? He would go in every deck with a sizable offense. The reason we made Assyrian Siege Army require another Assyrian in play was that if we didn't have that requirement, he would probably go in every deck.
The other nice thing about themes is one of the primary focuses in the game. They help people to see the Biblical interaction between characters in the Bible. For example, why does Terrifying Beast band with a Roman Emperor? Well, doing a little looking into, someone could learn that the four beasts represented the four successive major Kingdoms of the earth from Babylon to Rome. Why does Joseph protect sons of Jacob from discard? Well, because he literally did protect his brothers from starvation and near certain death. So many more examples just like that.
If you do decide to quit the game, we are sorry that you feel the way you do, and if we could convince you not to, we would. But hopefully whoever buys your collection will have fun and think it a fun game, and that the time you spent building up your collection will have been valuable to others, as I hope it has been to you.
I appreciate the post, and everything you said is true. When I posted this, a part of me was hoping that people would convince me to stay. It's still a great game, but my reasons for wanting to quit are still the same as they were in my other post. If someone can convincingly show me that it is possible to successfully play without Cactus-defined themes and that outside the box deck building has any potential, I'll definitely reconsider.
And I can certainly see why themes are a good thing. I 100% agree with the reasons that you listed. It just happens to be the case that they also push away people with a gaming mentality like mine; admittedly, people like me are a pretty small minority. Additionally, I live in a location where virtually no one plays this game, which means casual games with friends and noobs are right out. I'm limited to online play for the most part where the caliber of players is on average pretty high, and thus successfully winning 1 game in 10 with an unusual play strategy becomes MUCH more difficult.
Actually, allow me to retract my first statement. The only thing that I believe is untrue about what you said is that creating cards that no one uses is bad. This assumes that by "no one" you mean "approximately no one." I absolutely love cards that approximately no one uses. This means that that fewer people have put much thought into them, leaving me, the guy who lives outside the box, to explore new obscure ideas that utilize them.
I can't honestly say I know an effective way to work outside the preset themes, but I am much like you and I am trying to find a way to do it. I would implore you to keep trying and maybe you and I can work together to defy the realm. =)
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You have never played against me. My first deck was a red/white with black set. I won 2/3 games I played. I agree it is hard to play outside the box. I don't use themed decks. TGT theme requires Susanna,I have never used her. Hopefully,this new set will convince me to keep playing as well.
No matter what you decide on,I hope you discovered something new about the Bible because of this game.
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disciples/tgt were everywhere at the top tables. yay, coin-flip matches.
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I'm pretty sure I only played two Disciples deck with my anti-meta deck.
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disciples/tgt were everywhere at the top tables. yay, coin-flip matches.
Yup. Ours was the coin-flippiest game of the day for me.
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disciples/tgt were everywhere at the top tables. yay, coin-flip matches.
Yup. Ours was the coin-flippiest game of the day for me.
But at least we are all safe from the scourge that is ANB! Of course, if FBTN ever makes a comeback, they'll have to errata those 4/5 numbers. :P
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disciples/tgt were everywhere at the top tables. yay, coin-flip matches.
Yup. Ours was the coin-flippiest game of the day for me.
But at least we are all safe from the scourge that is ANB! Of course, if FBTN ever makes a comeback, they'll have to errata those 4/5 numbers. :P
FBTN!!!! Viva La Revolution!!!!