Author Topic: Super Packs at Nationals  (Read 1210 times)

Offline CactusRob

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Super Packs at Nationals
« on: July 25, 2019, 11:07:10 AM »
+9
We are making some special "super packs" that I will be selling at Nationals for Prophecies of Christ, Revelation of John and Early Church.  These sets where chosen because it's a last minute idea and we just got in more cards from the printer for these sets. 

Each pack will contain not 1 but 2 rare cards OR 1 rare and 1 ultra-rare.

Also, each display box will contain something extra.  It might be a Glory of the Lord promo from 2014 Nationals.  It might be a borderless Son of God, Captain of the Host or Angel of the Lord from 2016 Nationals or The Tabernacle from 2017 Nationals.  It might be a card autographed by the artist. It might be an original playtesting card from 1994 (not many of these).

There is no additional markup on these.  Packs will be regular retail price $5.00 per pack ($120.00 per display).
It's just another good reason to come to Knoxville next week.

Blessings,
Rob
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 09:32:00 AM by CactusRob »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2019, 11:41:20 AM »
0
Cool idea, Rob. Confirming there will still be only 5 new cards per pack, and also contain filler cards?
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Offline CactusRob

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2019, 12:05:01 PM »
+3
The PoC super packs will contain 6 PoC cards instead of 5.
The EC super packs will contain 5 EC cards instead of 4.

In both cases the extra card is a rare for that set.

Each display box for either set will contain the "something extra" I describe above.

Each set will contain the regular filler cards we are currently using for that set.  In short, we are subtracting nothing, only adding.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 12:14:35 PM by CactusRob »
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2019, 12:09:36 PM »
0
That's awesome man I'm saddened I'm not going!
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Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2019, 12:17:42 PM »
0
That’s awesome, in the past, and I have always agreed with it, was a limit on packs each person can buy. Will that be a policy this year or more of a wait and see approach?
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2019, 01:01:32 PM »
0
Dibs on two displays
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2019, 01:17:27 PM »
0
This is awesome! Thanks Rob - I'm looking forward to busting open a few of these next week!
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Offline CactusRob

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2019, 01:59:32 PM »
0
That’s awesome, in the past, and I have always agreed with it, was a limit on packs each person can buy. Will that be a policy this year or more of a wait and see approach?

For now, I setting the limit at one display box per person (while they last).
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2019, 02:01:31 PM »
0
That’s awesome, in the past, and I have always agreed with it, was a limit on packs each person can buy. Will that be a policy this year or more of a wait and see approach?

For now, I setting the limit at one display box per person (while they last).

One total, or one of each?
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2019, 12:08:34 PM »
0
Dibs on two displays

Dibs on your 2016 promos!  :P

Offline Master Q

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2019, 12:18:48 PM »
+2
So not even "National Winner promos" are safe from the rampant repackage bug. Great. :P  Can't wait to see the Priest of Zeus and Moses nats promos pop up somewhere down the line.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2019, 01:00:14 PM »
+1
So not even "National Winner promos" are safe from the rampant repackage bug.

I second this sentiment.  Those 2016 Nats winner promos were presented as a one-time thing.  Hence, why the secondary market prices for them has always been really high.

I never acquired any of these by trade or purchase, but if I had, I'd be pretty upset right now.  It's not good for a game to destroy the value of hard-to-find cards and upset its hardcore collectors.

I have already experienced buying a borderless TSC for $70, which at the time was an amazing deal, only to have PoC flood the market not even 1 year later with alt-border TSCs and destroy the value of my card.  Leaves a bitter taste in your mouth for sure.
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Offline VJ

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2019, 06:17:37 PM »
0
It's not good for a game to destroy the value of hard-to-find cards and upset its hardcore collectors.

I'm not upset.  I have been collecting cards since 2003.  Over the years I have paid the current price for hard to get cards, e.g. promos, ultra-rares, AB card, etc., Now many of these cards are going for much lower prices.  (I can also say this for all of the Cal Ripken cards I purchased.  Oh well.)

I had to retire several years ago due to health issues and now I am living on Social Security.  I like lower prices because my "extra cash" has completely disappeared.  Currently I am seven cards away from a complete set of cards dating back to the A and B starters.  That is, if you do not count the "high price" Nationals winner cards.  I only have one of these (a 2017 Son of God).


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Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2019, 06:21:54 PM »
0
So not even "National Winner promos" are safe from the rampant repackage bug.

I second this sentiment.  Those 2016 Nats winner promos were presented as a one-time thing.  Hence, why the secondary market prices for them has always been really high.

I never acquired any of these by trade or purchase, but if I had, I'd be pretty upset right now.  It's not good for a game to destroy the value of hard-to-find cards and upset its hardcore collectors.

I have already experienced buying a borderless TSC for $70, which at the time was an amazing deal, only to have PoC flood the market not even 1 year later with alt-border TSCs and destroy the value of my card.  Leaves a bitter taste in your mouth for sure.

I agree this is not good for the game!

Offline Gabe

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2019, 07:23:53 PM »
+3
False. Those promos, or any of the special cards we give out were NOT presented as a “one time only” deal. I can be certain of this as the one who both came up with the original idea and announced it on LoR. In fact, it’s highly likely that we will offer some of the classic SoG/AotL art on borderless cards again some day. Rob also prints cards in sheets which can lead to extra copies. We’ve left room for him to distribute those as he sees fit.

**EDIT**

For reference I’ve linked to original announcement below. There’s no “one time only” language used.

http://landofredemption.com/?p=5238
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 07:29:38 PM by Gabe »
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Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2019, 08:46:21 PM »
0
So it's just going to be a borderless card right it's not going to have "2016 national tournament special promo"?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 08:51:01 PM by Jeremystair »

Offline Gabe

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2019, 09:01:26 PM »
0
So it's just going to be a borderless card right it's not going to have "2016 national tournament special promo"?

I find it more likely that it falls under “extra copies [of the print run] that Rob can distribute as he sees fit” but only he can say for certain.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2019, 12:37:56 PM »
+2
False. Those promos, or any of the special cards we give out were NOT presented as a “one time only” deal. I can be certain of this as the one who both came up with the original idea and announced it on LoR. In fact, it’s highly likely that we will offer some of the classic SoG/AotL art on borderless cards again some day. Rob also prints cards in sheets which can lead to extra copies. We’ve left room for him to distribute those as he sees fit.

**EDIT**

For reference I’ve linked to original announcement below. There’s no “one time only” language used.

http://landofredemption.com/?p=5238


…And yet there’s no indication that they will be anything other than 1 time special promos. Why would anyone assume the exact same versions of these cards would be available sometime down the line? In fact, the language used in these articles strongly indicates that only the winners from that year would receive these specific cards.


2016 article
Quote
Why not make the winner promo more exciting? In fact, why not make some exciting promos for everyone who makes the top 3?

If you win will you keep these to stylize your deck? Will you trade them to get cards to enhance your deck? Will you sell them to an avid collector to recoup some of your travel expenses?


2017 article
Quote
Another huge success from 2016 that will be repeated in 2017 are the special promos for the top three places in each category. To keep these promos special, there will be an all new set given out to the winners in 2017.


2018 article
Quote
Instead of only the first place finisher getting a winner promo, the past few years promos have been given to the top 3. But instead of getting the standard winner promo (aka Dragon Raid) that is given out at all other tournaments, we’ve gotten special winner promos for Nationals.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2019, 04:56:27 PM »
+3
I see nothing there that indicates a one time only exclusivity to those cards. I’m sorry you’ve made incorrect assumptions.

Rob has a history of making hard to get cards available at a later date via other means. This isn’t the least bit shocking to me. Look back to King David (p) or NJ (Dom) from years ago, or more recently the chase Doms (TSC/3W/SW). He prefers to keep the game accessible to a larger majority.

If you want a cool, exclusive, hard to get card when it’s new you pay a higher price, as is the nature of the free market. If you’re patient and don’t mind waiting it’s likely to come around eventually in a more accessible way. That pattern certainly isn’t unique to Redemption.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 05:01:19 PM by Gabe »
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Offline jesse

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2019, 05:39:47 PM »
+1
While I understand the position and frustration of those in the "exclusivity camp", I think that Gabe makes good points. Rob does have a history of doing this, and I for one (as a pretty avid Redemption collector myself) am glad, as it makes the game's utmost chase cards much more affordable and available.
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2019, 05:56:45 PM »
+1
I am thankful for Rob's generosity. I understand the exclusivity angle. The reality is that only a few of these are going to be available anyway. It's not like every pack will have a Nationals Winner Promo in it. Great little bonus for those attending the 25th Anniversary tournament!!!

Offline Master Q

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2019, 07:29:51 PM »
+2
I see nothing there that indicates a one time only exclusivity to those cards. I’m sorry you’ve made incorrect assumptions.

You mean all the language and reference to being awarded only to winners of those years as well as the fact that they have 2016 National Tournament Special Promo printed right on the cards doesn't give the impression of one time exclusivity? I'm sorry, but what year is this?

Rob has a history of making hard to get cards available at a later date via other means. This isn’t the least bit shocking to me. Look back to King David (p) or NJ (Dom) from years ago, or more recently the chase Doms (TSC/3W/SW). He prefers to keep the game accessible to a larger majority.

That isn't at all comparable to this. King David (p) was made a winner promo far later than when it was first released (by at least 10 years probably). Both KD and NJ were also readily available to just about anyone that wanted one for since as long as I've been playing (KD being around $30-40 in his height, and yes, I did trade for my first). This isn't a case of making cards accessible for a larger majority. The article even makes it clear that the winner promos were chosen as cards that most people already had specifically for the reason of making them 'unique' to that tournament.


Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not calling for this to not happen, and I'm not terribly upset. It's just annoying how Redemption in recent years has seem bent on devaluing its cards to the point of collectors nowadays not being able to make much of a reasonable return on their investments. I miss the days when AoCP was $40-$50 and Faithful Servant Promo went for $75+, and people didn't have to worry about those cards being 're-released'. Time and the increasing availability of AoCP devalued those cards, not re-releasing. People expect expensive cards in ccgs. It's more exciting that way. Now, it's like we have to look over our shoulder everytime a new chase card comes out nowadays to make sure it's not being repackaged, etc in the exact same aesthetic (see TSC & 3W AB). This 'cheapening' recently is more sad than anything. I would much prefer the Shipwreck route, where a hard to find card is re-released in a new look. That's both exciting and fresh.

If this was done a few years from now or was made clear from the start something like this was the plan all along, I probably would've been more receptive.
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2019, 09:20:14 PM »
+1
While I like the idea I think the reintroducing year specific Nats Special promos like that might be a little much. I would be much more comfortable if the super packs for this years Nats had a chance at this years promos instead and that way each Nats would have the exclusiveness still remain intact.

I feel like for previous years Nats promos maybe the secondary market could make some Super pack stuff. (but I'm not sure how viable that is and how well it would sell regardless)

I'm okay with the idea overall and it's not like anything will change this year anyways but maybe moving forward we can look at making Nats special Promos exclusive to Nats for that year only?

As a side note I have no qualms about the Nats regular promos and whatnot for this just the year specific winner prize special promos.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 09:25:59 PM by The Schaefer »

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2019, 12:00:04 AM »
+2
As someone who has won some of these cards, I don't really mind their value going down since I consider the ones I kept a trophy and don't intend to try and sell them even if I some day quit the game. I would be happy with this idea except that:

As someone who cares about the health of the game and wants it to do well, having unique prize promos both encourages the secondary market and drives competition to try and win said promos. No matter your opinion about collectors losing value or what promises some people feel were made or not, I think it's hard to argue that putting winner promos in boosters reduces the impact of winner promos in general. I get that making all versions of cards available to everyone is a cool idea and one I would be greatly in favor of if I didn't also believe it comes at a cost that I'm not sure is worth it.

Offline CactusRob

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2019, 08:57:54 AM »
+6
Peace be with you.  I appreciate the discussion and hear what some of you are saying.  It's true that if some cards get expensive, sooner or later I will look for a way to make them more accessible.  I am sorry that this frustrates collectors.

Nevertheless, I have decided to draw the line at winner promos.  They are earned and should continue to be special. I do not wish to dilute the value of winning these cards. 

Thank you.
Rob

P.S.  I have edited the original post.  We will also be able to make some RoJ super packs for Nationals.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 09:01:02 AM by CactusRob »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2019, 11:02:24 AM »
+1
This has been an issue I've wrestled with in my own mind (even before it came up with the super packs for this year). On the one hand, I've acquired many of the top end cards from the past few years, and I would like to see their values hold steady (if not climb a bit). On the other hand, I remember back in the day when I was a relatively new player and how hard I had to work to acquire the necessary cards in order to trade Doug Gray for my first Authority of Christ Promo. I was fortunate to pull a Destruction of Nehushtan in the very first Patriarchs pack I opened, but I did not get a second one until much, much later.

It's a very tough balance to be sure...the game needs some expensive chase cards to drive pack sales in order to keep the game going, but not so many that the "entry price" becomes too high for new players to join the game.

I think there's a lot more that could be discussed with this issue, and I think those discussions would certainly be worthwhile, but for now I completely support Rob's decision to include chase URs in the super packs, but withhold the winner promos.
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Offline jesse

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2019, 11:35:35 AM »
0
 +1

Well-put.
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Offline Sean

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2019, 12:48:56 PM »
0
I am in favor of making the game as monetarily accessible as possible in all circumstances.
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2019, 12:52:44 PM »
+3
This has been an issue I've wrestled with in my own mind (even before it came up with the super packs for this year). On the one hand, I've acquired many of the top end cards from the past few years, and I would like to see their values hold steady (if not climb a bit). On the other hand, I remember back in the day when I was a relatively new player and how hard I had to work to acquire the necessary cards in order to trade Doug Gray for my first Authority of Christ Promo. I was fortunate to pull a Destruction of Nehushtan in the very first Patriarchs pack I opened, but I did not get a second one until much, much later.

It's a very tough balance to be sure...the game needs some expensive chase cards to drive pack sales in order to keep the game going, but not so many that the "entry price" becomes too high for new players to join the game.

I think there's a lot more that could be discussed with this issue, and I think those discussions would certainly be worthwhile, but for now I completely support Rob's decision to include chase URs in the super packs, but withhold the winner promos.
  One key difference between AoC promo or DoN or the high end Ultras is the winner promos are all accessible very easily (most in starter decks) so new players can get them and don't need the alt border version ones.  I am glad with Rob's change as well, but I wasn't going to make any complaints one way or the other.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2019, 01:25:52 PM »
+1
I am in favor of making the game as monetarily accessible as possible in all circumstances.

Fortunately, the extremely rare and expensive "Winner's promos" are only unique in their design and rarity, not in their actual card abilities.  The SoG winner's promo ability is no different than the SoG you pull from the I/J decks. 

So new players and those with limited access to funds aren't "harmed" by not having access to them.
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2019, 03:47:35 PM »
+1
I am in favor of making the game as monetarily accessible as possible in all circumstances.

Fortunately, the extremely rare and expensive "Winner's promos" are only unique in their design and rarity, not in their actual card abilities.  The SoG winner's promo ability is no different than the SoG you pull from the I/J decks. 

So new players and those with limited access to funds aren't "harmed" by not having access to them.

I haven't had a chance to chime in but this and Justin's post is pretty much how I feel.  I'm a huge collector and have been seeking the 2016 promos since 2016.  While I would love to be able to acquire those much cheaper, I also understand how people seek them so they can try to make a portion back that they have spent traveling to Nationals.  So I'm fine with both and don't even have a preference.  As long as these super rare impossible to get cards aren't different, game-changing and the most broken cards in the game it should all work out fine!

Offline Master Q

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2019, 12:35:44 PM »
+1
Thank you for your reconsideration, Rob. Little things like that go a long way!
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Offline CactusRob

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Re: Super Packs at Nationals
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2019, 03:00:25 PM »
0
Regarding limits on purchasing displays, we were able to make the following super pack displays:

20 - Prophecies of Christ
6 - Early Church
3 - Revelation of John

Limit will be one display per person total.  If demand appears to exceed the above, then I may limit it to 12 packs per person to start.
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