Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Market => Topic started by: jesse on June 11, 2018, 08:15:28 PM
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Hey everyone, I was wondering a few things:
1) Why do you think that Babel is selling so much better than the other 2 URs (it must be since its price is $60 on TLG whereas the others are $30)...the consensus on the boards has been that Wages of Sin is the best of the 3. I'm not complaining or anything as Babel is actually my favorite, but I was just wondering why. Maybe because it's a new card type (City)?
2) Given that the Legacy Rares are more rare than the ultra rares, are full art and super cool, why do you guys think their prices are so low (except Mayhem and Hopper) compared to the URs? I would think they would all be at least $15 or more. Do you think they will eventually go up (a lot) to be more representative of their rarity?
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1. IMO, Babel is more versatile than Wages. Many decks are running OT defenses this year, and even NT ones often run Uzzah and FW in reserve, so the site side fits into nearly every deck. Even though the fort is countered by Humble, the negation is incredible, especially with how prevalent SotS and FW are. It's an all-around solid card that can fit in nearly every deck. Don't get me wrong, Wages is great, and you can definitely stretch it into a lot of decks, but if you aren't maining one of its three colors it's just that - a stretch.
2. I'm also a bit surprised at how people are pricing the LRs, and it's why I haven't listed the (relatively low-value) duplicates I've pulled on my trade thread. I'm hopeful that they'll go up, but not terribly optimistic - we have heard that if a set rotation does happen there will be easier-to-get reprints, so they're mostly just a vanity thing. Back with the arguments people were using before the set dropped - why would I want to pay $15 for Capturing Canaan if I can get exactly the same card for $1?
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Babel can go into any deck and have an impact on only your opponent. It will almost always make an impact, sometimes a rather large one!
Wages only fits in decks using enough of 3 evil brigades to play it consistently. It also requires that you build in targets for it. While that’s fairly easy to do it requires specific planning in the deck building phase.
Fall of Man is highly splashable but requires skill to use well. Unlike Babel, which has almost no cost, FoM uses that valuable Artifact spot to get continued use out of it.
So I t seems logical to me that Babel is the most sought after of the 3, although I didn’t expect it to be twice as much.
I’m surprised at the extremely low value of the LRs. I expected them to be closer to the value of URs. But the original plan involved fewer per box too.
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Since Legacy Rares aren't "necessary" and more of a novelty, I think that's what's keeping their price lower. Personally I'm planning to buy a few more after I've had a chance to open more FoM packs.
I have no idea why Babel is outselling Wages... :scratch:
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I was thinking the same thing, and was actually planning on making a post about this tomorrow!
1) I honestly have no idea for the UR issue, I am surprised that it's $60. I don't really mind that it's the most expensive, but i can't believe that it's over $50! I'd love to know why that choice was made.
2) Again, no idea why this choice was made. I'd assume it was to be consistent with how they did Alt border stuff in the past, but these are so much rarer that i think i higher price is justified.
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I’m selling Babel for $45. Just saying. I’ve actually had more people interested in Wages than Babel. Wages is my favorite of the three and I have used it quite successfully to its potential in several games in two different decks.
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One other thing to consider. Babel is easily the “most splashable,” but it is the only of the 3 URs that you can have more than one of in a type 2 deck. So type 2 players will probably want 2 of those, which will drive up cost. Sometimes price isn’t always about power of the individual cards.
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Good points everyone, thanks! Personally I expect the other UR prices to go up toward Babel, and the LRs to increase as well. As other people have expressed, I also wouldn't trade a low-value LR for another card of equal "value" due to their rarity. In time, I would expect dynamic this to drive their price up.
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Things to consider
- Babel is very easy to reuse with shrine and fire foxes. I think you can get more bang for the card slot.
- With just 3 OT Evil Humans in reserve drawing Babel is like drawing any of those 3 (or more options).
- Babel has value even if you deck out your reserve.
- Babel can bolster an offense by putting OT DAC's in reserve.
- Babel can effectively demolish specific deck builds.
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I guess I need to play Shipwreck this year if everyone is so high on Babel
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I guess I need to play Shipwreck this year if everyone is so high on Babel
Please do, with all the alternative access to the reserve Babel will be very strong but not a need in a well constructed deck. If you wanna run Shipwreck and spend a dominant that way I say more power to you.
;) ;D
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For Legacy Rare pricing, I can see why Travis kept the prices in line with the old cards they are reprints of. LR Eve might not sell if it costs $7-$15 when you can buy a perfectly playable Eve (Di) for $1 or less.
And it goes both ways - TxP Mayhem is never going to sell at $25-$30 if you can buy the LR at $7-$15.
Me personally, I'd put a floor of at least $5 on all Legacy Rares, simply because of their rarity and unique art.
As for the UR discussion, Babel is the easiest to use and can absolutely punish certain decks. It's easy to park Babel in Reserve when you are playing Abaddon (a popular EC these days). Wages and FoM take more skill and specific deckbuilding, so we'll see if the next two months can uncover optimal builds with them.
I personally am working on a unique defense that plans to utilize Wages. It's more of a Teams defense right now, but I'll definitely give it a go on the T1 side if it is successful in Teams.
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Shipwreck is always playable in my mind...if nothing else, you'll be able to hit Ends of the Earth in most any game. The question is if your defense is strong enough to sacrifice a different evil dominant. For me, Babel alone doesn't justify Shipwreck because I'm not really worried about Babel the times people use it just to grab an Evil Character. However, with Throne becoming stronger and Cities in general being very versatile, I think Shipwreck is definitely a higher value play than the past couple years.
P.S. This is a great discussion, can we do this more often? ;D
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Babel would be my #2 FoM UR (after Wages). Wages is absolutely beastly, but Babel's just so simple- put it down, walk past FF and Uzzah all game (or grab something from Reserve). My guess for its popularity would also be regarding T2 multiples, as it doesn't seem to be scarce at all (out of the six FoM boxes I've seen opened, 4 had Babel). Still, perhaps Travis hasn't opened as many compared to Wages and TFoM and is simply adjusting the price to account for some sort of disparate rarity that I haven't seen.
I bought a Wages (as I would say it is necessary in anything running enough black, crimson, or orange). I don't know who's buying Babel (as I would say it's not crucial). I suppose we'll have to see how many people actually plan on using it in the coming months.
I don't really agree with people saying LRs are "more rare" than the URs. Certain specific LRs seem to be more rare, but as a whole you're always guaranteed more LRs per box than URs. If you want that specific one, it may be "more rare" than trying to get a specific UR, but I can tell you I wouldn't buy a FoM box for a chance to open a specific LR, and I wouldn't spend or trade more than $5 worth for a card that's going for far less otherwise. Of course, I'm in the camp that doesn't like the fact that LRs take the rare spot, so take that for what you will.
For me, Babel alone doesn't justify Shipwreck because I'm not really worried about Babel the times people use it just to grab an Evil Character.
Still unsure of what my 7th dom is going to be (Grapes, SW, or DoN), but I agree; I would SW Babel pretty much only as an Evil Fort. It's harmless... right?
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Is it just me or is Babel another coliseum/Jericho etc etc where Wages gets you to doms and so much more +a solution to babel if you even need it
The reason uzzah and fire foxes are no brainers is because they are more consistent than counters (justification for still nerfing Coney after printing an entire set to counter it). Wages is speed and gets you R&D potentially angel 2x
If I have 2 slots for sites I'm going Patmos and ends in this meta. Patmos is a potential d6 to a rescue .. I see Josiahs argument about Babel being great reserve access but I kind of feel like the opportunity Patmos provides is so much more overwhelming I can hardly justify rolling the dice with a counter card over it
At the end of the argument blocking is stalling and winning is rescuing souls
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I’ve played with Babel in one of my decks recently and I’m just not overly impressed. I understand that it can get an OT EC from Reserve but that’s not all that crucial when I have means to do this. And the Fortress portion is very conditional. I’d rather use CwD than the fortress as it’s a guaranteed blanket characters negation that’s CBN. And if you’re worried about your own characters being negated then use CBP or CBN, and you can control when to activate it and when not to.
Babel can be easily negated (particularly the fortress side), taken (Joshua or Caleb), or simply discarded or shuffled (SW; FF - so long as it’s not played as a fortress).
Wages, however, has so much versatility, recursion, and searching of powerful cards. To me it’s a no-brainer which one is better. But to each his own. If Babel works well with your deck then by all means use it.
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As I pondered this more, I began to wonder if maybe we're selling Fall of Man a bit short. Considering that many people seem to think that the "chump" defense is the way to go (with ECs from a variety of brigades) would it not make sense to also use a multi-color evil battle winner? Obviously it doesn't have any CBP/CBN/CBI conditions (so used by itself, it's not hard to negate), but I could easily see it being used in conjunction with Martyr or Falling Away to defeat a two character band without giving up initiative.
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As I pondered this more, I began to wonder if maybe we're selling Fall of Man a bit short. Considering that many people seem to think that the "chump" defense is the way to go (with ECs from a variety of brigades) would it not make sense to also use a multi-color evil battle winner? Obviously it doesn't have any CBP/CBN/CBI conditions (so used by itself, it's not hard to negate), but I could easily see it being used in conjunction with Martyr or Falling Away to defeat a two character band without giving up initiative.
I found a way to make Wages CBN... ;)
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I found a way to make Wages CBN... ;)
Simon the Magician is probably the best, but Carcasses and Asherah Pole can do the trick too.
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I found a way to make Wages CBN... ;)
Simon the Magician is probably the best
We have a weiner!