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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Unofficial Tournaments => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption March Madness => Topic started by: Bryon on March 25, 2012, 10:48:01 PM
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Which is the better Redemption hero?
Two rookies have defeated experienced powerhouse heroes to face each other in the finals.
Which is better: Joseph VS AutO
2 brigades VS 2 cards
A hero who is discard-proof VS a hero who makes another hero opponent-proof
A hero who is easily brought (back) into play VS a hero who easily brings other heroes (back) into play
There is a lot to consider here. Cast you vote!
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Sam decks > Genesis decks. AutO wins.
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This really SHOULD be Sam vs AUTO, which would actually be a tough decision, since the two really go together. However, I think even then AUTO would win, for versatility and Gideon invincibility.
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I'm surprised this is a blowout so far, honestly. I figured enough people would hate Sam to keep Prof Oak from an easy win. At any rate, I totally called AUtO winning (so did half the board) so I feel pretty good. He deserves it.
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I think that there are a couple of things to tilt this in favor of AUTO. First, Joseph's protect can be prevented, interrupted, negated, whatever. AUTO's cannot. I do like Joseph's small size and ability to use HT, but AUTO can draw and get you whoever you need to set up your combo.
And once your combo is set up, you always start the battle with him to draw, and they can't touch him again until he's in territory. Joseph isn't always going to be your choice, even in his own deck, because of the other options you have (and what enhancements are in hand). The every-turn use of AUTO makes him my choice.
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AUTO can work in a deck that utilizes TGW. He's better.
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My vote is going Joesph's way. He is the better Hero. Professor Oak has a lot of stuff around him, as does Joe, but at the end of the day Joe rescues souls and AutO rarely even stays in battle.
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My vote is going Joesph's way. He is the better Hero. Professor Oak has a lot of stuff around him, as does Joe, but at the end of the day Joe rescues souls and AutO rarely even stays in battle.
I really don't like hearing this. I don't think people realize how many tight spots AutO can get one out of when he has Wheel on him. Being protected from Christian Martyr and Writ is a big deal in my opinion.
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It can be, yes, but what CBN battle-winners does Oak have?
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I'm not saying I'd use him as my first option, but if I - for whatever reason - know my opponent has Christian Martyr in hand and Unholy Writ is up, he's good for a rescue or two. Until the dust settles from the rule changes and we see what kind of defenses we're looking at, CBN battle winners don't even matter right now because the meta defense is still the meta defense. He doesn't have the actual rescue power that Joseph does, but he also has a couple advantages over Joseph when making a rescue attempt.
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I look at it this way. Oak is +2, Joe is +1.
Oak can protect someone else who's 6/6 from opponents, Joe protects himself (who's 2/2) from Discard.
Joe is a Prophet and a Genesis character and all the Brigades that entails. Oak is Silver.
Artifacts and fortresses can be used to make Joseph more powerful. W3 can make Oak more powerful.
Joe fears only Uzzah or KoT+CM out of the meta defense, and won't even let SB D3. Oak (w/W3) fears everything except CM and Writ.
Some of this also comes from the fact that I've recently made an incursion into T2 and Joe is about a billion times better than Oak.
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How does Joseph prevent SB from the D3 other than one specific enhancement? Joe also fears Writ in the meta defense because realistically, Obi's Caves is a wasted slot in a Genesis deck when you're only using it with one hero. I definitely disagree that Joe is better than Oak in T2.
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Only using it with one Hero that wins by himself and is searched out extremely easily.
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Genesis is bad in T2. Joseph could see use in a prophets deck, but I doubt he'd be used much there. AUTO is good in T2. Therefore, AUTO wins.
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Some of this also comes from the fact that I've recently made an incursion into T2
When did this happen? And who has a fatted calf that I can kill for the feast?
While AutO is part of an overall better T2 offense, Joseph is the cornerstone of one of the best plays in T2 (Joe+HT+CotW). I've yet to lose a game with my Genesis offense when I can pull that off by turn three (and since Rachel can search for Joseph, and Answered Prayer/Stone Pillar can search for CotW, it can happen fairly often). When I pull fifteen Gen Heroes out of my deck and then pull a bunch more EC's out with Eve, I basically have my deck setup before you've gotten through a fifth of your deck.
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I'm with Pol on this one, I've got to go with Joe. I really dislike AutO but I tried to set my bias aside to make a fair judgement.
If it weren't for the new rule changes I would have definitely voted for AutO, but since I think that the new rule helped Genesis to close the gap on Sam a little, the Sam > Gen argument has less impact for me.
I'll take Joe's protection from discard and inish over Gideon's protection any day. Joe can get a + 1 which helps AutO's +2 lacks the impact that it would have against other non-drawing characters, though of course the advantage there goes to AutO.
AutO can get some fun combos up, but if we're talking combos, AutO soon find that he can't come close to Joe because of HT. We're talking CotW massiveness, ANB potential, and some of those Genesis search cards can cause some really fun situations too. The Advantage here has to go to Joe if for no other reason that Joe plays ANB.
Then you have to think about all the ways there are to bring Joe back into the game, Judah, Rachel, Asher. How many ways does AutO have to get back into the game? Chamber? But who actually uses that in their Sam deck?
I'm going to go with Joe here, I think that he wins more souls. This isn't the popular opinion, but I almost always cheer for the underdog and that goes even beyond MM, so it's unlikely that I'll change my vote.
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I'll take Joe's protection from discard and inish over Gideon's protection any day.
You'd rather take interrupt-able protection from discard over CBN protection from literally anything? I'm sorry but lolwut? Only one of the hundreds of situations in which this is more useful is when your opponent tries to use grapes to block and you get to say "So you're handing me soul then?"
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Yup becasue Joe's protection is for all the sons of Jacob, so WoS and Plot are useless against him.
Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.
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Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.
Then they play Sam's Edict or Deb's Directive…
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Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.
Then they play Sam's Edict or Deb's Directive…
Those worries are non-specific to Gideon though...
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Plus Gideon is only 6/6, it's easy to get enough numbers to stalemate against him.
Then they play Sam's Edict or Deb's Directive…
Those worries are non-specific to Gideon though...
Wait, what? Two CBN battle winners that are both arguably better than any of Joseph's battle winners are somehow written off because they're "non-specific"? That's ridiculous.
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My vote is going Joesph's way. He is the better Hero. Professor Oak has a lot of stuff around him, as does Joe, but at the end of the day Joe rescues souls and AutO rarely even stays in battle.
+1 I also agree with Pol's breakdown of the analysis. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-march-madness/the-finals-joseph-or-the-angel-under-the-oak/msg471885/#msg471885)
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What it comes down to to me is this:
Who has the better chance of winning a soul for you... If Nazareth+Rain Becomes Dust are up early, Oak becomes Nerfed and so does the offense that surrounds him plus he lacks battle winning enhancements... In comparison, you add Obby's Caves + all the enhancements Joeseph can use (green & blue) + Hidden Treasures makes Joe the better hero.
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I think of AutO as a good support Hero on the best team in the league. If we were to use the 2011-2012 NFL season, he'd be Lawrence Tynes, a solid kicker who the Giants needed in order to be successful, but certainly wasn't a superstar all by himself.
Then there's Joseph, who is the best/second best Hero (depending on your thoughts about Jacob) on the league's second best team. Which means he'd be like Tom Brady.
AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'". So while he is over in Judges/Sam decks kicking field goals, definitely improving your chances to win, Joseph is leading his team down the field with a whole host of options at his disposal for successful touchdown drives.
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I think of AutO as a good support Hero on the best team in the league. If we were to use the 2011-2012 NFL season, he'd be Lawrence Tynes, a solid kicker who the Giants needed in order to be successful, but certainly wasn't a superstar all by himself.
Then there's Joseph, who is the best/second best Hero (depending on your thoughts about Jacob) on the league's second best team. Which means he'd be like Tom Brady.
AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'". So while he is over in Judges/Sam decks kicking field goals, definitely improving your chances to win, Joseph is leading his team down the field with a whole host of options at his disposal for successful touchdown drives.
I hate Tom Brady, but I agree with this assessment!
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I think of AutO as a good support Hero on the best team in the league. If we were to use the 2011-2012 NFL season, he'd be Lawrence Tynes, a solid kicker who the Giants needed in order to be successful, but certainly wasn't a superstar all by himself.
Then there's Joseph, who is the best/second best Hero (depending on your thoughts about Jacob) on the league's second best team. Which means he'd be like Tom Brady.
AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'". So while he is over in Judges/Sam decks kicking field goals, definitely improving your chances to win, Joseph is leading his team down the field with a whole host of options at his disposal for successful touchdown drives.
Exactly. And who won the Super Bowl?
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AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'".
False. AutO can be used to get Jacob to band to Judges and can search/recur heroes.
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Exactly. And who won the Super Bowl?
Thus why my analysis said that AutO was a support player for a better team (only given the 2011-2012 season, Patriots fans). However, you cannot possibly argue that if this were a comparison of NFL players, that Tynes would be better than Brady.
AutO's ability in both T1 and T2 is essentially "selected Judge gains the ability, 'You may draw 2'".
False. AutO can be used to get Jacob to band to Judges and can search/recur heroes.
Right. So AutO is an additional piece of a combo that is almost as effective with just Moses and Aaron. Big deal.
I don't want to diminish AutO at all, in fact, he's a great Hero who is deserving of placing high in the tournament. But when it comes down to it, Joe is just simply a better Hero. When you block Joe without Writ or Charms active, and are unable to negate his ability, there is very little chance you will win. His initiative and CBN battlewinners are too good. Then he can easily be protected from capture by Caves, and combos really well with HT. If you block Gideon or Samuel, the best choices you can pick with AutO, you will almost certainly have initiative. Versus Samuel you have all the same options as you do vs. Joe, plus more likely to have initiative. When you block Gideon, you can play anything that ends the battle, or protects/shuffles LSs. And even so, all you need to beat Gideon outright is to block with an NT EC and use Herod's Temple to stop his one good battle winner.
If AutO didn't d2, this wouldn't even be close. As it is, it should rightfully be close, but I think Joe still has the edge.
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The problem with the football
analysis analogy is that football players can actually change teams. This means you can compare one player to another using a common ground (that is, compare the successes of a particular team when using certain players). However, you can't say how well AUTO would do in a Genesis deck (well you could, but the answer would be "terrible") unless you actually change the card (which would change everything).
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Actually, on the subject of AUtO fitting into a Genesis deck, I think Isaac should be reprinted as a blue/gold hero, because I believe it's reasonable to assume that, because he was his father, Isaac would have been the judge of Israel.
-ba dum tsst-
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The problem with the football analysis is that football players can actually change teams. This means you can compare one player to another using a common ground (that is, compare the successes of a particular team when using certain players). However, you can't say how well AUTO would do in a Genesis deck (well you could, but the answer would be "terrible") unless you actually change the card (which would change everything).
Well, actually the analogy still works. A good kicker is a good kicker, regardless of where he plays. And players like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning make their teams good (e.g. the Broncos should easily win the AFC West this year). If Joseph was reprinted in Red and his ability were changed to make some good Red battle winners CBN, then he would be just as good of a Hero as he is now. If Angel Under the Oak said the same thing except he fetched a Disciple and made Andrew protected from everything CBN, he'd still be a great Hero. But even in that scenario, all he would really do is make the Disciples gain an extra d2.
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For that matter Joseph would also be utterly useless in a Sam deck...
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For that matter Joseph would also be utterly useless in a Sam deck...
Genesis splash is actually perfectly viable in a Sam deck. Joseph, Jacob, Reuben's Torn Clothes, and Captain of the Host. With the new rule changes, it can be used as an excuse to add Cupbearer to the defense as well.
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Can Oak win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)
Can Joe win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)
On that basis, Joe crushes Oak. Its not even close. The only thing that Oak real has for itself is D2 and he is easily nerfed by Nazareth and RBD, pretty common cards used in the new meta.
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AUTO out of spite. Asahel was better
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AUTO out of spite. Asahel Jacob was better
Fixed. Joe shouldn't have made it out of his brigade.
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AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.
Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.
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Can Oak win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)
Can Joe win in battle without other hero support? (lets include forts/arts/enhancements)
On that basis, Joe crushes Oak. Its not even close. The only thing that Oak real has for itself is D2 and he is easily nerfed by Nazareth and RBD, pretty common cards used in the new meta.
If you want to bring Nazareth into it, Genesis is completely shut down by Nazareth. They don't have enough drawing to compensate for losing all of their search and they don't have any real way of shutting down sites (Sam decks at least have Angel with the Secret Name). If RBD and Nazareth are both up, then yes, Angel Under the Oak gets shut down, however, so does Genesis, and Joseph is pretty useless without his three enhancements.
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AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.
Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.
AutO can also exchange for Moses, who can win without enhancements.
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AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.
Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.
Have you ever used Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+ Spiritual Warfare for a soul, then next turn Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+RTC's for a second soul, then on the next turn Joe+JBP for 3 straight souls?
I use AuTO, Samuel, Gideon, Isaiah, Jacob, and Joseph in my deck and by far the most effective hero in the deck is Joseph.
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AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.
Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.
Have you ever used Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+ Spiritual Warfare for a soul, then next turn Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+RTC's for a second soul, then on the next turn Joe+JBP for 3 straight souls?
That's six cards used for three souls.
Angel Under the Oak > Sam > Armorbearer > Ishy > Asahel > Ahimelek
So that's three straight souls, plus at least a +5 every turn, and maybe as much as a +8 every turn. Since Spiritual Warfare is vulnerable to King of Tyrus, and RTC is vulnerable to all sorts of things, I'd say both strategies have roughly the same amount of viability regarding actual rescue, and Joe lacks the aforementioned speed.
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and how many times have you actually pulled that off with no hiccups? More importantly in your comparison of the heroes you took away the best thing AUTO has, and Joseph won, but neglected to mention that if you take away Joe's enhancements he has nothing.
If you take away both characters best stuff you have AUTO at an 8/8 D2. Joe is a 2/2 with interrupt-able protection from discard.
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Honestly I don't really care about either simply because TGW is 10x better than both. I feel like it takes being played against with this card for people to figure out that she is..... awesome.
I voted AUTO simply for the same reasons as RW, he is closer to TGW than Joseph.
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Honestly I don't really care about either simply because TGW is 10x better than both. I feel like it takes being played against with this card for people to figure out that she is..... awesome.
I voted AUTO simply for the same reasons as RW, he is closer to TGW than Joseph.
TGW is really only good in niche strategies that wait until the end-game to really make a move. I agree she's fantastic, especially when combined with I Am Holy and Storehouse, however, she's not present in top themes, and doesn't often actually make rescues by herself.
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Since when do the best heros have to be present in top themes to be the best. If this was true then Sam would've been here. I believe the best solo hero in the game possibly apart from WS is TGW.
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Both AUTO and Joseph are present in top themes. He didn't say they had to be the staple in the theme, just present.
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Since when do the best heros have to be present in top themes to be the best. If this was true then Sam would've been here. I believe the best solo hero in the game possibly apart from WS is TGW.
But Widow still doesn't make many rescue attempts by herself, and is only good in conjunction with an entire theme revolving around her. At the end of the day, she's vulnerable to all sorts of things and only has one CBN enhancement (two if your opponent is close to decking out). Her ability is great at the end game, but not without a whole boatload of support.
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If Joseph was reprinted in Red and his ability were changed to make some good Red battle winners CBN, then he would be just as good of a Hero as he is now. If Angel Under the Oak said the same thing except he fetched a Disciple and made Andrew protected from everything CBN, he'd still be a great Hero.
As one who judges by the deck (and even if I went anywhere near trying to judge in a vacuum), I would agree that these characters might still be great if tuned for other themes, but their usefulness would be re-defined to reflect the usefulness of that theme. They may still be great heroes, but they would be completely different heroes with different usefulnesses depending on the theme they were tuned for. You can't compare real heroes using theoretical heroes, just as you can't compare heroes to football players, the latter of which can be traded and compared in a near-vacuum.
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TGW is awesome because she's TGW. She supersedes reason and logic.
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AUTO can't win without hero support.
Joe can't win without enhancement support.
Neither are perfect. But I'll take bulletproof gideon and the worlds most epic banding chain over interrupt-able protection from discard. I mean have you ever played with bulletproof gideon? I don't think a no SA hero has ever been more fun.
Have you ever used Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+ Spiritual Warfare for a soul, then next turn Joe+Obby's Caves+Hidden Treasures+RTC's for a second soul, then on the next turn Joe+JBP for 3 straight souls?
I use AuTO, Samuel, Gideon, Isaiah, Jacob, and Joseph in my deck and by far the most effective hero in the deck is Joseph.
Yup. But then have they blocked with KoT. Yup. But then my opponent used a different brigade. Yup. But then my used an auto block.
Have you ever done Angel Under the Oak D2 > Sam D2 > Armorbearer >Izzy Archer > Ishy D3 w/ Fs > Asahel > to any thing else
There you have a D7 band that you can do every turn, with tons of other options, and plenty of battle winers to go with it.
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AUTO out of spite. Asahel Jacob was better
Fixed. Joe shouldn't have made it out of his brigade.
I had it right the first time
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We're down to the final 12 hours of voting. We have 57 votes as of this morning, which is the same number of votes we had last year:
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-march-madness/championship-jacob-or-susanna/ (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-march-madness/championship-jacob-or-susanna/)
It looks like this year's poll is about as close as last year's.
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Well it looks like we have the winner! :)
Now on to April's fools! So nominate Leviathan for AF!
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Congrats AUTO! Nice to see silver get the respect that it deserves :)
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More like Sam decks getting the respect they deserve. ::)