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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Unofficial Tournaments => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption March Madness => Topic started by: Bryon on March 11, 2012, 10:01:44 PM
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Which is the better Redemption hero?
Salome
Daniel [Promo]
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I would vote for Daniel if he hadn't have beaten Susanna.
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I don't understand how Daniel is losing this....
If Daniel is a better hero than Susanna, then he is most definitely a better hero than Salome.......
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I don't understand how Daniel even got here. I've actually seen Salome used before.
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Daniel got here because of RLK's.
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Lets try out the new feature:
[card_browser]
Daniel [Promo]
Salome
[/card_browser]
Blah, neither one has an image in this database. :P Double clicking on a card does bring up the info though.
yay, they got fixed.
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Salome is about as good as Suzanna. Daniel beat Suzy, so he should beat Salome as well.
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
However what about Daniel? Dan counters everything in the meta defense even Gomer in some cases with his negates (+4 impact) He can band or look at hand, both useful abilities (+3 impact) as for enhancement stuff he's white/green giving him access to lots of awesome stuff and the ability to use HT for preblock wins (+3 impact). Lastly his CBN rounds him off well. (+2 impact) Total impact for Dan 12
Search deck for TGT or N.T. cov, now that's pretty useful for a TGT deck. (+3 impact). Ignore ECs w/weapons, this is nice for getting around horsies, a helpful ability. (+2 impact). Salome is a TGT character (+4 impact), She actually has a good identifier (+ 1 impact). Total for Salome 10.
Dan finishes with a two point advantage over Salome.
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
Not really, seeing as Salome can search for TGT, use TGT, and search for The New Cov.
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I voted for Suz over Dan and I will definitely vote for Salome over Dan.
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
Not really, seeing as Salome can search for TGT, use TGT, and search for The New Cov.
That's important yes, I gave it a healthy 3 impact points but it still isn't enough to overcome Daniels capacity to do so much. So I don't see the justification for Salome over Dan. Where in my impact calculus would you say that I errored? Did I not factor in something or do you think I'm putting too much weight on something? From here it seems like Dan is clearly better, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but I need some convincing first.
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Being a TGT girl is +4 impact. Being a TGT girl and tutoring for your sacky win strat is +9000. Salome wins.
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OK I'll update it with another impact for Salome, and I'll give her another + 1 for her identifiers, something I didn't factor in before, Daniel still comes out ahead though.
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I repeat. Daniel doesn't need to be here. Daniel doesn't fit in a GOOD(sorry chronic) deck. Thus he shouldn't be here.
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One thing to note is that Salome is a fair amount better than Susanna was. I think they have abilities that are comparable in scope, but being able to use TGT is huge, and does give her a huge leap over Susanna in my opinion. That said, I still voted for Daniel, though I'll vote against him if he manages this to face off with MMoJ.
Red, simply put, yes he does.
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A good deck is not a prophets deck chronic. Most green decks I must say frankly, are bad.
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And I welcome your opinion, however, I disagree.
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
However what about Daniel? Dan counters everything in the meta defense even Gomer in some cases with his negates (+4 impact) He can band or look at hand, both useful abilities (+3 impact) as for enhancement stuff he's white/green giving him access to lots of awesome stuff and the ability to use HT for preblock wins (+3 impact). Lastly his CBN rounds him off well. (+2 impact) Total impact for Dan 12
Search deck for TGT or N.T. cov, now that's pretty useful for a TGT deck. (+3 impact). Ignore ECs w/weapons, this is nice for getting around horsies, a helpful ability. (+2 impact). Salome is a TGT character (+4 impact), She actually has a good identifier (+ 1 impact). Total for Salome 10.
Dan finishes with a two point advantage over Salome.
Being serious now, here is what it should look like if we're scaling from 1 to 4:
Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand: + 1
Green/White: +0
Negate fortresses: + 1
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: + 2
CBN: + 1.5
TOTAL: 10.5
Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT tutor: +4
NT Female: +2
NT covenant tutor: + 1
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 12
I think this is a much more fair evaluation.
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I'd argue that having two brigades is worth another 1.5 points.
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
However what about Daniel? Dan counters everything in the meta defense even Gomer in some cases with his negates (+4 impact) He can band or look at hand, both useful abilities (+3 impact) as for enhancement stuff he's white/green giving him access to lots of awesome stuff and the ability to use HT for preblock wins (+3 impact). Lastly his CBN rounds him off well. (+2 impact) Total impact for Dan 12
Search deck for TGT or N.T. cov, now that's pretty useful for a TGT deck. (+3 impact). Ignore ECs w/weapons, this is nice for getting around horsies, a helpful ability. (+2 impact). Salome is a TGT character (+4 impact), She actually has a good identifier (+ 1 impact). Total for Salome 10.
Dan finishes with a two point advantage over Salome.
Being serious now, here is what it should look like if we're scaling from 1 to 4:
Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand: + 1
Green/White: +0
Negate fortresses: + 1
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: + 2
CBN: + 1.5
TOTAL: 10.5
Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT tutor: +4
NT Female: +2
NT covenant tutor: + 1
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 12
I think this is a much more fair evaluation.
I agree with MKC. Being white/green is overrated.
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I'd argue that having two brigades is worth another 1.5 points.
2 brigades is useless if you're negating the side that the best enhancements are NT.
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What do you mean by a TGT tutor???
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What do you mean by a TGT tutor???
Tutor=search
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
However what about Daniel? Dan counters everything in the meta defense even Gomer in some cases with his negates (+4 impact) He can band or look at hand, both useful abilities (+3 impact) as for enhancement stuff he's white/green giving him access to lots of awesome stuff and the ability to use HT for preblock wins (+3 impact). Lastly his CBN rounds him off well. (+2 impact) Total impact for Dan 12
Search deck for TGT or N.T. cov, now that's pretty useful for a TGT deck. (+3 impact). Ignore ECs w/weapons, this is nice for getting around horsies, a helpful ability. (+2 impact). Salome is a TGT character (+4 impact), She actually has a good identifier (+ 1 impact). Total for Salome 10.
Dan finishes with a two point advantage over Salome.
Being serious now, here is what it should look like if we're scaling from 1 to 4:
Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand:+ 1 + 1.5 (look at hand is an amazing ability, and he has some cool peeps to band to)
Green/White: +0 + 1 (C'mon 0 seriously? I know he doesn't have awesome white stuff but I still think the white/green should be factored in.)
Negate fortresses: + 1
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: + 2
CBN: + 1.5
TOTAL: 12
Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT tutor: +4 +3 (don't think the TGT tutor is that impactful, when' I've played TGT Salome rarely gets TGT out quickly enough to be worth it.)
NT Female: +2
NT covenant tutor: + 1
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 12 11
I think this This is a much more fair evaluation.
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Agreed, Daniel is clearly the better hero here, I'll post another impact calculus in a minute to show that.
However what about Daniel? Dan counters everything in the meta defense even Gomer in some cases with his negates (+4 impact) He can band or look at hand, both useful abilities (+3 impact) as for enhancement stuff he's white/green giving him access to lots of awesome stuff and the ability to use HT for preblock wins (+3 impact). Lastly his CBN rounds him off well. (+2 impact) Total impact for Dan 12
Search deck for TGT or N.T. cov, now that's pretty useful for a TGT deck. (+3 impact). Ignore ECs w/weapons, this is nice for getting around horsies, a helpful ability. (+2 impact). Salome is a TGT character (+4 impact), She actually has a good identifier (+ 1 impact). Total for Salome 10.
Dan finishes with a two point advantage over Salome.
Being serious now, here is what it should look like if we're scaling from 1 to 4:
Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand: + 1 +2 (look at hand is an amazing ability, and he has some cool peeps to band to)
Green/White: +0 + 1.5 (C'mon 0 seriously? I know he doesn't have awesome white stuff but I still think the white/green should be factored in.)
Negate fortresses: + 1
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: + 2
CBN: + 1.5
TOTAL: 13
Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT tutor: +4 +3 (don't think the TGT tutor is that impactful, when' I've played TGT Salome rarely gets TGT out quickly enough to be worth it.)
NT Female: +2
NT covenant tutor: + 1
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 12 11
I think this This is a much more fair evaluation.
what good Daniel heroes are there to band to? Michael, ok. But who else? White/green isn't really worth that much. None of the Daniel stuff is CBN, and none of it is very good anyway. First Fruits & Words are good, but are you really going to use those with just one character (assuming your not using a Daniel based deck)?
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The banding options are terrible. Looking at the hand is a novelty. 1 point for the whole thing considering you can only do 1 or the other. And you weighted it the same as him being a prophet, which is not even nearly true.
Giving Daniel 1.5 points because of Green/White is like giving him points because he is Green. If we're going by that, then we give Salome 1.5 points for being White. Again, he negates anything useful the White portion will ever use. And Daniel in his best theme will never use White enhancements. Zero points across the board.
Salome gets +4 for tutoring TGT because its plussing for your 3rd, 4th, and 5th SoG.
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Fine I'll make Daniel a simple + 1 for being white/green instead of a 1.5. I just looked at the banding options again, they aren't as good as I originally though, but they aren't that bad, Abednego who CBN bands to another Daniel hero (like Mike with Angel's sword, or Kings Gabe) is a pretty decent band if you ask me (not great but decent). Look at hand is one of the best abilities in the game, because it helps you as a player make smarter decisions, can Salome help you make smarter decisions? That being said, I'll go ahead knock down that particular ability down a half point since it's an either or.
And I still say Salome shouldn't get a +4 for tutoring, I rarely see TGT getting three lost souls a game, maybe two but hardly ever three.
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Then you should add a point to Salome being White. Clearly you didnt see my point.
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No I see your point, but I don't agree with it, as Red Wing pointed out there is still, FF, and Words to use in O.T. white. There are others too, Undefiled is an awesome enhancement to use and it can only be used by an O.T. hero. Daniel deserves to have an edge for having two colors.
And Salome shouldn't get a +4 for tutoring, I agree it's nice, but not that nice. It isn't always useful, while Daniel's look at hand and negate ECs is always useful.
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Salome gets *.2 for being redundant.
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How is tutoring TGT not that nice? She tutors the 3rd most powerful card in the game. She should be getting extra points for that.
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Exactly. It gives yourself 2 times of the odds of going into sacky rescues.
No I see your point, but I don't agree with it, as Red Wing pointed out there is still, FF, and Words to use in O.T. white. There are others too, Undefiled is an awesome enhancement to use and it can only be used by an O.T. hero. Daniel deserves to have an edge for having two colors.
Lets put it this way. Lets have Daniel be Green/Pink. That is exactly the same as having White on Daniel. In any competitive deck with Daniel in it, less than zero percent of the enhancements will be White.
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Exactly. It gives yourself 2 times of the odds of going into sacky rescues.
No I see your point, but I don't agree with it, as Red Wing pointed out there is still, FF, and Words to use in O.T. white. There are others too, Undefiled is an awesome enhancement to use and it can only be used by an O.T. hero. Daniel deserves to have an edge for having two colors.
Lets put it this way. Lets have Daniel be Green/Pink. That is exactly the same as having White on Daniel. In any competitive deck with Daniel in it, less than zero percent of the enhancements will be White.
And this time, his percentage is actually correct.
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How is tutoring TGT not that nice? She tutors the 3rd most powerful card in the game. She should be getting extra points for that.
It's nice but not 'that' nice, Search tutors any number of the most powerful cards in the game but not all decks use it. Why? well because it doesn't win battles, it can help you get to where you win battles but it doesn't actually win battles. Simply tutoring doesn't win a battle, but countering the meta defense by negating and banding does.
Lets put it this way. Lets have Daniel be Green/Pink. That is exactly the same as having White on Daniel. In any competitive deck with Daniel in it, less than zero percent of the enhancements will be White.
Ummm no, not necessarily true, Daniel decks can contain white, silver, and green in them.
Now this deck may not be competitive, but then no deck using green or doing non-TGT white won't be competitive, so if your factoring that in there I guess Salome would be the better hero. The problem I have with that is that we are having a contest for the best hero, not the best deck. Simply put, I don't think we should vote down a good hero just because he doesn't fit into Sam or Gardenciples deck. When you remove the overall competitiveness of the deck from the picture, Daniel becomes the better hero.
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Simply put, I don't think we should vote down a good hero just because he doesn't fit into Sam or Gardenciples deck. When you remove the overall competitiveness of the deck from the picture, Daniel becomes the better hero.
The problem with this is that you can't win the game with just one, lone hero: you have to have a deck. And while I don't think voting on meta archetype is good, you have to consider the kind of deck in which the hero would be used in order to find the true best hero.
A 1/1 pink brigade hero who is CBN protected from everything would be an awesome hero, but he wouldn't be the best because you can't win a battle with a 1/1 hero that has no enhancements.
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If he's N.T. I could convert the EC with preaching the truth. So there!
My point is the pink brigade illustration is just semantics, it has no bearing on the discussion.
I think that we are missing the point of MM if we vote so heavily on what deck the character is in, we are supposed to be looking for the best hero, not the best deck.
If you want to use that as a kind of tie-breaker I think that's fine, but I don't think it should be the primary factor in the decision making process.
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Daniel's look at hand ability is almost entirely irrelevant because the main reason you'd look at somebody's hand is to know what hero to rescue with (and U&T is the only thing that can do that).
Daniel's band ability is irrelevant because anybody you'd want to band to is terrible. Let's face it, a Daniel deck won't win anything (unless you're an Alstad, but then you could probably win with a Lamenting deck)
Daniel's being white is irrelevant because he doesn't play white enhancements. He plays green because he doesn't belong in a white deck. He's not easily splashable in a (good) white deck, and without the support in green he's really not that good.
Daniel's negating N.T. enhancements is basically irrelevant. Negating Just a Hireling and Tenants Kill the Son is nice, but there's no other used N.T. enhancements (and it'll just come back to hurt you if you are playing white).
Daniel's negating fortresses is almost irrelevant. Hitting Kingdoms with a Provisions on him is basically the only use for it, and that's T2 only.
Daniel's negating evil characters is really really nice.
Daniel being a prophet is nice, due to Obediah's Caves, but there are other, better, prophets out there.
Daniel being CBN is irrelevant because the only thing that would negate him would be CwD, and that accomplishes exactly what Daniel's trying to accomplish anyway (negating Uzzah and KoT).
I think that we are missing the point of MM if we vote so heavily on what deck the character is in, we are supposed to be looking for the best hero, not the best deck.
A man is only as good as his woman, as they say. A hero is only as good as his deck. Furthermore, if other cards make a hero better they should be considered (especially if a hero can search for said support card ;)). If we throw out TGT and MMOJ, we throw out Obediah's Caves, all heroes that Daniel can band to. Also, taking meta game into account would not be just looking at the best hero, and a hero like Nicodemus may be great against Phars, but not worthy of nomination due to being terrible against the usual defense.
Everything is subjective at this point.
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Daniel's look at hand ability is almost entirely irrelevant because the main reason you'd look at somebody's hand is to know what hero to rescue with (and U&T is the only thing that can do that).
Daniel's band ability is irrelevant because anybody you'd want to band to is terrible. Let's face it, a Daniel deck won't win anything (unless you're an Alstad, but then you could probably win with a Lamenting deck)
Daniel's being white is irrelevant because he doesn't play white enhancements. He plays green because he doesn't belong in a white deck. He's not easily splashable in a (good) white deck, and without the support in green he's really not that good.
Daniel's negating N.T. enhancements is basically irrelevant. Negating Just a Hireling and Tenants Kill the Son is nice, but there's no other used N.T. enhancements (and it'll just come back to hurt you if you are playing white).
Daniel's negating fortresses is almost irrelevant. Hitting Kingdoms with a Provisions on him is basically the only use for it, and that's T2 only.
Daniel's negating evil characters is really really nice.
Daniel being a prophet is nice, due to Obediah's Caves, but there are other, better, prophets out there.
Daniel being CBN is irrelevant because the only thing that would negate him would be CwD, and that accomplishes exactly what Daniel's trying to accomplish anyway (negating Uzzah and KoT).
And based on these very reasons, I thought I judged Daniel very fairly in point distribution.
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Daniel negates Caves.... ::)
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1/2 point deduction in the Prophet category? :P I completely forgot about that. But it's still good he has access to HT, cards that say 'if used by a prophet...', etc.
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Lots of haters pointing out he's not very good
People vehemently defending him with semi-flimsy statistics.
He's the underdog.
He's still winning anyway.
Daniel is Tim Tebow.
(This means that MMoJ is the Patriots)
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Daniel negates Caves.... ::)
Wow. I had actually considered making a Daniel deck until I realized this. I would use Holy of Holies, but his CBN destroys that and it would also have eliminated the only good thing about Daniel.
Daniel's a terrible hero.
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Pretty much. Its nice that Prophets got its version of a FBTN-ish Hero, but regular FBTN heroes do that job vastly better. And honestly, all his 1-pointers are abilities many players can live without.
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And yet Daniel is still winning this.
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Daniel's negating N.T. enhancements is basically irrelevant. Negating Just a Hireling and Tenants Kill the Son is nice, but there's no other used N.T. enhancements (and it'll just come back to hurt you if you are playing white).
I agree, banding in Daniel after TKtS or other NT CBP battlewinners is a good strategy :)
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I agree, banding in Daniel after TKtS or other NT CBP battlewinners is a good strategy :)
I've been against Daniel from the start, but now I wouldn't have even nominated him.
Daniel is really bad. He stops Uzzah. That's about it.
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Daniel negates Caves.... ::)
Oh wow didn't think about this, I'll adjust things accordingly.
Still, my main issue in voting for Dan is not that Dan is so good, but that Salome is not that good, I'm considering her as a TGT hero (I give her a +4 for that), however KChief's initial rating for Salome gave her a +4 for searching for TGT, I would say that this is a 3 at best.
Searching is good yes, however in the majority of the games that I have played with TGT Salome's ability has not made a difference in that game, because she usually ends up negated by KoT or she doesn't get out at all.
EDIT: Impact Calculus list updated.
Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand: +2
Green/White: + 1
Negate fortresses: + 1
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: + 1.5
CBN: + 1
TOTAL: 11.5
Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT tutor: +3
NT Female: +2
NT covenant tutor: + 1
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 11
I've updated this significantly from my original assessment, but my assessment still has Dan winning by a half point.
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Here is my argument...
....I voted for Salome out of spite.
Question: why are any of you paying attention to these "numbers/calculus/etc."? They appear made up and arbitrary to me.
^This is more of a curiosity, because I will continue to vote against Daniel out of spite.^
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Answer: We need something to argue about duh.... ;)
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You forgot Daniel's cool card art, fancy gold border and "National Promo" language at the bottom. That's gotta be at least another + 163 or so for Daniel :)
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But Daniel deserves a -150 for beating Susanna… Dan's art isn't that great anyway.
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Don't be hatin' on the dude I was named after.
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Daniel
Anti-meta: +4
Band or Look at hand: +1 for bad options
Green/White: +.5 for incompatability
Negate fortresses: -1 for negating Caves
Negate NT enhancements: + 1
Prophet: +1 (he can use Two Bears and make Search CBN. Not worth a 1.5)
CBN: + .5 (irrelevant in T1, mostly irrelevant in T2)
TOTAL: 7
Salome
TGT user: +4
TGT or NT covenant tutor: +3.5
NT Female: +2
Ignore EC's holding weapons: + 1
TOTAL: 10.5
....I voted for Salome out of spite.
I will vote against Daniel every time (mostly because he doesn't deserve it, but also because I hate him). I will vote for SWS and TGW every time, even if they don't deserve to win...
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Then multiply Daniel's figure by "time, times, and half a time" for an even bigger advantage!
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Then multiply Daniel's figure by "time, times, and half a time" for an even bigger advantage!
That'd be a clock, a multiplication symbol and half a clock.
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Multiply....clock....over clock? Over locking? You want overclock Daniel? Does he have an unlocked multiplier?
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Multiply....clock....over clock? Over locking? You want overclock Daniel? Does he have an unlocked multiplier?
CBN unlocked. That's why he's winning.