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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Unofficial Tournaments => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption March Madness => Topic started by: jbeers285 on March 30, 2014, 02:38:00 PM
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Red
2. Asahel
5/4 Red (W/C)
May band to an O.T. warrior class human Hero or may choose opponent's male human Evil Character to block. Protect Asahel from withdraw and return abilities.
Versus
White
2. Susanna
1/X White X = number of new testament female heroes in play
Look at the top X cards of deck. May add one to hand. Place the rest beneath deck. Cannot be negated.
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This is extremely hard for me but, I am going Susy. She is a card draw that can get around RBD and Iron Pan and she is also good for getting inish.
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Susanna is good, but she needs you to be playing with other NT females to work really well. Also, white is just not strong enough anymore IMO. While red may not be beastly, I like Asahel in this match up for the CTB.
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Without Susie, I think TGT drops from viable to irrelevant. She isn't the lynchpin that MMoJ is, but she's the grease in the cogs of TGT. Asahel is also the grease in the cogs of FBTNB, but I think that TGT edges out FBTNB, and I think Susie is more important a character in her respective theme than Asahel.
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Without Susie, I think TGT drops from viable to irrelevant. She isn't the lynchpin that MMoJ is, but she's the grease in the cogs of TGT. Asahel is also the grease in the cogs of FBTNB, but I think that TGT edges out FBTNB, and I think Susie is more important a character in her respective theme than Asahel.
asahel has 3 ways of choosing a blocker to get inish and playing a card that becomes a cbn battle winner. granted 2 of those need david and ahimelek but what battle winners does suzy actually have besides HiR?
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what battle winners does suzy actually have besides HiR?
Magnificat (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Magnificat_(Di)), which you can play with the initiative (and doesn't affect Susanna since she is CBN). You can also use No Need for Spices (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/No_Need_for_Spices_(RA)). All are recurrable with Consider the Lillies (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Consider_the_Lilies_(TP)).
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what battle winners does suzy actually have besides HiR?
Magnificat (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Magnificat_(Di)), which you can play with the initiative (and doesn't affect Susanna since she is CBN). You can also use No Need for Spices (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/No_Need_for_Spices_(RA)). All are recurrable with Consider the Lillies (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Consider_the_Lilies_(TP)).
if ur counting CtL the throw in a soldiers prayer for asahel . . . if u have suzy ur probably running tgt so if ignore isn't working for you then NNFS probably isn't gonna do you much good. Magnifanct is another run of the mill enhancement not an cb anything. The upside to it is the lack of protection against set aside; still not cb(anything).
Asahel is still better in my book
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In my opinion, Asahel is more likely to make a rescue, but Susie is more likely to make a game-changing play.
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Susanna has fallen from favor for me for years now, as the only theme she fits into is TGT and more times than not the correct play is to send an actual TGT girl into the red zone. Coupled with an unimpressive number of spot removal or just relatively weak in general compared to other great spot removal in the meta, Asahel wins this matchup for being the far better utility character.
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if ur counting CtL...
I was being thorough on the enhancements you can use, since it is not as common to know them all anymore and you expressed interest.
Susanna has fallen from favor for me for years now, as the only theme she fits into is TGT and more times than not the correct play is to send an actual TGT girl into the red zone.
This. If she could use TGT it would be one thing, but she can't so this is pretty simple for me.
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Choose the blocker/rescuer are very nice abilities, but I'll take Susie's Soul-hiding ability over that any day. She also gets better initiative and isn't, by default, vulnerable to CBN Scattered (like Asahel is if you use his band). I also feel that the theme Susanna fits in is a better theme overall than any that Asahel fits into. No she can't use TGT, but I daresay she's the best tutor in the game, especially since she gets around protection from search/draw/reveal by being a "look at."
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She also gets better initiative and isn't, by default, vulnerable to CBN Scattered (like Asahel is if you use his band).
Asahel is not by default vulnerable to Scattered. If you actually want to win with CTB, you are choosing and playing a CBN battle-winner with initiative.
Speaking of which, initiative is much better for Asahel when you choose who he fights, as opposed to Susanna with a variable toughness (which gets worse the better her ability becomes) and no choice over who she fights.
I also feel that the theme Susanna fits in is a better theme overall than any that Asahel fits into. No she can't use TGT
Then she doesn't fit into the theme. Asahel fits into Red about as perfectly as possible: You can choose to band (which is what Red does) or choose the blocker and play CBN david-related stuff (also what Red does). Not sure how he doesn't fit, that's just silly. Susanna, on the other hand, cannot use the best card in her theme, or be part of the big-bad-band. This point is clearly reversed.
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The point isn't reversed, you just misunderstood what I said. :P
What I meant was that the theme Susanna fits into (TGT/NT Women) is better overall than the theme Asahel fits into (Red/WC), I wasn't referring to how well each fits into their respective themes.
Regarding your second paragraph, her toughness may be variable but she still only has 1 strength so the only ECs who would get non-special ability initiative blocking her would be the 1/1 evil Kings (or Babylonian Soldiers if you have no captured characters in play).
Regarding Scattered, I specifically mentioned that he's vulnerable if you use his band. Obviously he wouldn't have a problem with Scattered if you use his CtB, lol. There's still the potential there, though, whereas Susie doesn't have that particular weakness.
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Asahel would be better if he was in a better color. As much as I love red, white right now is better I am not voting for Suzy just because of her color mind you, I am voting for her because she has a very useful ability in addition to a good theme.
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What I meant was that the theme Susanna fits into (TGT/NT Women) is better overall than the theme Asahel fits into (Red/WC), I wasn't referring to how well each fits into their respective themes.
I would still disagree with you there. TGT is powerful, and she doesn't fit into the PBI part of it. If you are using TGT, and not going in with a TGT hero, then something else is going on. If you just use NT women in general, you are split across white/gold.
Regarding Scattered, I specifically mentioned that he's vulnerable if you use his band. Obviously he wouldn't have a problem with Scattered if you use his CtB, lol. There's still the potential there, though, whereas Susie doesn't have that particular weakness.
If banding is defeated by the advent of a single card (which you can only have one of, regard of what type you play), then why is banding still used in the meta, and in most top decks? I don't accept that as a 'weakness', especially when you have CTB as an option.
I don't say that AutO is weaker than <insert random character> because his optional draw can hurt you if you choose to use it and RBD is up. That's not a valid argument in the first place, but he still has exchange otherwise which is powerful enough.
Finally, your exact words were "by default," as if you would "by default" be banding with him. I don't accept that as a valid assumption to make in this situation, and given all the above, this is certainly no 'weakness'.
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Fir your first paragraph: Again, I'm not debating how well she fits into her theme, but TGT is far and away better than Red. You, personally, may build a white-focused TGT offense without Susanna (and you're perfectly allowed to have that opinion, just as I am allowed to have mine) but I think most people would build their white-focused TGT offense with her. (I specify white-focused because TGT Disciples with mono-purple, or at least purple and not white, is also a popular build)
For your last 3 paragraphs: I really don't feel like getting into a debate about wording, lol. If you really want to pick apart my opinion (never claimed it was fact) at the word or clause level be my guest but I'm not going to debate semantics with you about a popularity contest. :P
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For your last 3 paragraphs: I really don't feel like getting into a debate about wording, lol. If you really want to pick apart my opinion (never claimed it was fact) at the word or clause level be my guest but I'm not going to debate semantics with you about a popularity contest. :P
+1 with this lets all remember we're on the forum for Gods game. :angel:
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Not sure where you two get the idea that I am attacking anyone :o You are way off base if that is where you go with my statements.
I don't quite get why you having an opinion (which I also didn't say was a fact...in fact, I think I was trying to prove it was everything but :P) means that I cannot counter specific points. We are debating over who the best hero is, and I can give just as much of my opinions as you ;) If I disagree with you, I don't see how there is an issue with having a discussion on the actual difference between our viewpoints.
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I don't think you're attacking me, but I also don't feel like defending my opinion in a popularity contest (which is all this is, there's no requirement of fact or irrefutable evidence) when you're sitting there picking it apart into pieces. :P
I prefer Susanna for certain reasons, you prefer Asahel for other reasons, there's no reason we can't both be "right" or "correct," it basically just means we have different playstyles (as everyone does). I dunno why everything has to become a debate with you. ;)
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I dunno why everything has to become a debate with you. ;)
*sigh* This type of thing gets a little old, frankly.
First, I'll say most of my post is pointed at AJ, who seems to be implying that I'm not in the proper spirit for being on a forum for a game for God. AJ, if that's not what you meant, it is how it came across, and it is very far from the truth, as I said.
"Why are you arguing?" or "Why does everything become a debate?" is not a good way to have a conversation, because it is a loaded question with no 'proper' answer. Let me try, though. I respond because we are continuing a discussion, as in it takes two to tango. I enjoy discussions on things like this, and it is the purpose of this 'contest', to debate the best hero. If you and I are having a discussion, and you post something to counter my points, I will respond to you, and that should not be a problem. I really don't understand why that becomes a problem around here.
There's no reason that you have to post in response, but if you do, don't expect me to just suddenly stop the conversation on that note for no apparent reason. In the post where you said you didn't want to debate...you debated beforehand ;) So you can see my confusion, and why I respond to you.
Now, if you really don't want to keep debating these characters, that's fine, I don't take that personally just like I don't take any debate personally. I'd just appreciate it if you, and AJ, would see my post for what it was: a continuing discussion without anything personal in it. If you read more into it than that, then that is upsetting.
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Debate is fun and part of this competition but sometimes it can feel overwhelming when a post is critiqued at a deep analytical level while originally it had 30 seconds of thought put into its wording. I see both sides but sometimes less is more and an unsaid word goes further for those of us who analyze data and information in a way similar to redoubter.
Less can be more
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jbeers hit it on the head. I came here to throw my vote for Susie and explain why I chose her only to have my thoughts picked apart because of word choice and/or misunderstandings.
In the post where you said you didn't want to debate...you debated beforehand ;) So you can see my confusion, and why I respond to you.
And this kind of proves the point I said above. I never said I didn't want to debate, I only ever said I don't want to debate when you're sitting there picking apart what I said and pointing out words or clauses. Save the technical arguing for Ruling Questions. :P
EDIT: I guess I should realize by now that you argue technically, so that's prolly my fault. I do apologize for thinking you were being especially harsh, I realize now that I should have given the benefit of the doubt.
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EDIT: I guess I should realize by now that you argue technically, so that's prolly my fault. I do apologize for thinking you were being especially harsh, I realize now that I should have given the benefit of the doubt.
For the record, I feel that one card being better than the other should be argued from a technical perspective...but then maybe I'm just getting too technical about the approach ;D
Hope I don't need to say that I'm joking on this one, but just in case.
Sorry for my part in it. I hope you understand what I am saying, and that's all that matters.
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So...... Suzie.
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First, I'll say most of my post is pointed at AJ, who seems to be implying that I'm not in the proper spirit for being on a forum for a game for God.
Sorry I was not really being serious.
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To recap my previous posts, minus my unnecessary arguing, here is why I voted Susie:
-TGT/NT women, as a theme, is more powerful than Red/WC, as a theme.
-Any white-focused TGT offense, I feel, would be better off with Susanna than without even though she cannot directly use the fort. She is the best tutor in the game, aside from Search/False Peace, because she lets you look at a # of cards based on the number of a specific type of Hero that you're going to have in play anyway if you're using that offense and bury any Souls you otherwise would have drawn amongst those cards. She also gets around all protection of the deck currently in the game (I believe). As such, I believe that Susie definitely "fits" in the TGT/NT women theme, at least if building it with a white focus.
-Both Heroes have good initiative, but I feel that Susie edges Asahel out just a bit with her low strength (as mentioned, the only ECs she loses initiative to, with any other NT women in play, are the 1/1 evil kings and maybe Bab Soldiers).
Have at it Redoubter (or any of the other 16 people that voted for Asahel). :P
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Have at it Redoubter (or any of the other 16 people that voted for Asahel). :P
If you want to be technical, it is currently 17.
EDIT: To those downvoting, I know that he said "other 16." That was part of the joke, that I was misreading his posts in small ways :P Ah well, maybe it was too obscure of a joke ;)
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She lets you ... bury any Souls you otherwise would have drawn amongst those cards
This is a common misunderstanding of Susanna's ability. She doesn't, on average, lead to Soul drought. People tend to remember the few times she hits 50% LS and forget the times she hits 0% LS. Susanna actually increases the chances of drawing a LS on a future turn whenever she hits no LS.
I'll take it one step further. I'll put forward that she actually increases the chance you draw a LS on a future turn. After using her ability, you have a deck that has the same number of LS, but one less non-LS card. On average, across many many uses of her ability (including those that bury many LS and those that bury none), in the end, you draw slightly more LS, simply because your deck is thinner.
I picked Asahel, but I would have picked him, even if I did consider Susie a "soul-hider".