Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Unofficial Tournaments => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption March Madness => Topic started by: Professoralstad on April 13, 2012, 11:33:28 AM
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Who is the better EC?
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Again, I point out the lack of usefulness of KoT vs almost any deck out there and does not actually have a use in most meta decks (where he sees the most use for some reason), since who wouldn't have CBN to use against him, and how much back-up do you actually have?
Wandering Spirit on the other hand CBN bands to generic demons (leading to such fun combos as SWS or SoT) and allows your demons to come back even if they are discarded.
This one should go to WS hands down.
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Neither of these characters should be here. KoT can actually win a battle though.
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Uh, I think that it should be SWS vs. wandering spirit since SWS isn't in I go with WS.
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KoT needs to be punished since he beat SWS, so I vote Wandering Spirit.
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Instead of avenging SWS, make the person who beat him win. That way you can say there was a fluke match and SWS would have won otherwise.
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I think that King of Tyrus is better at what he does than Wandering Spirit is at what he does. King of Tyrus is (arguably) the best evil character to have in the early game. He stops most early game bands unless your opponent gets lucky with a CBN band, or something like Samuel + Edict. With Gomer, he stops the most common bands in the game, and a lot of them (such as Samuel bands) don't have many CBN enhancements to stop King of Tyrus with. I would argue that King of Tyrus is actually a lot more effective this season than he was last season because unlike last season, when TGT and Disciples (and thus, rampant ignoring and CBN enhancements, respectively) were top dogs, this season relies a lot more on characters, which King of Tyrus (especially with Gomer) is strong against. Wandering Spirit's ability is nice, but right now demons aren't that strong, even when splashed, and WS isn't that good outside of a demon splash (or demon deck).
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Instead of avenging SWS, make the person who beat him win. That way you can say there was a fluke match and SWS would have won otherwise.
You know what, I like this better...
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Instead of avenging SWS, make the person who beat him win. That way you can say there was a fluke match and SWS would have won otherwise.
You know what, I like this better...
...yeah, I love both of those lines of reasoning. Makes perfect sense to vote for cards based on everything except their abilities. Yep.
Gotta love groupthink...
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Instead of avenging SWS, make the person who beat him win. That way you can say there was a fluke match and SWS would have won otherwise.
You know what, I like this better...
...yeah, I love both of those lines of reasoning. Makes perfect sense to vote for cards based on everything except their abilities. Yep.
Gotta love groupthink...
I highly doubt you were complaining about groupthink when he was voting for bad reasons but on your side.
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I highly doubt you were complaining about groupthink when he was voting for bad reasons but on your side.
Ok, I JUST got on tonight to see his post. Yes, I would complain. Seriously, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't think in a situation, that is the ultimate in my pet peeves :P
It annoys me when people vote this way (that is, with some completely random agenda or slant having nothing to do with the actual card) on some characters, but on their favorites get all bent out of shape if you disagree with them for legitimate reasons.
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It annoys me when people vote this way (that is, with some completely random agenda or slant having nothing to do with the actual card) on some characters, but on their favorites get all bent out of shape if you disagree with them for legitimate reasons.
1. Agendas (also known as biases or belief systems) are the only reason people do anything.
2. I believe favoritism is a legitimate reason.
3. Some voters may seem illegitimate to you but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a say in the outcome.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-march-madness/democracy-in-redemption/ (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-march-madness/democracy-in-redemption/)
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3. Some voters may seem stupid to you but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a say in the outcome.
I take real offense to you saying this without any statement from me saying anyone was stupid or that what they said is stupid. Do not put words in my mouth. Again, as I said before, people saying I think something I don't is the ultimate in what I hate.
I never said you don't have the right, either, but who can say with that argument that I don't have the right to be annoyed by you voting this way? I can also point out that voting based on an agenda in one thread and not on the cards, but getting bent out of shape like some do when their favorites get down-voted makes no sense. That's also my right.
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I didn't mean that you were actually calling anyone stupid. (which you did not) But rather I meant that you thought we were illegitimate. (your words). I apologize for misquoting you.
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I dont know why wandering spirit got in there but King of Tyrus is a good card.
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I dont know why wandering spirit got in there but King of Tyrus is a good card.
Wandering Spirit is good in type 2. ( I thnik thats why people are voting for him...) I voted for him because I want to see an upset victory! lol but I voted for WS because orange isnt super powerful and ever since he came out in TexP more decks are using orange. :2cents:
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I dont know why wandering spirit got in there but King of Tyrus is a good card.
Wandering Spirit is good in type 2. ( I thnik thats why people are voting for him...) I voted for him because I want to see an upset victory! lol but I voted for WS because orange isnt super powerful and ever since he came out in TexP more decks are using orange. :2cents:
Not that I don't like WS but this is about who you think is a better EC not about upset victories, if you really think KoT is the better EC then that's who you should vote for.
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I dont know why wandering spirit got in there but King of Tyrus is a good card.
Wandering Spirit is good in type 2. ( I thnik thats why people are voting for him...) I voted for him because I want to see an upset victory! lol but I voted for WS because orange isnt super powerful and ever since he came out in TexP more decks are using orange. :2cents:
Not that I don't like WS but this is about who you think is a better EC not about upset victories, if you really think KoT is the better EC then that's who you should vote for.
I disagree, I think he should vote for who he wants to vote for. There is no set criteria or standard for voting. Yes it's a competition about who's the best EC, but there's no rule that says he can't vote based on whatever idea he has of being the 'best.' If hi123 thinks that he should vote for the underdog he should do it. If I like a character because it's more fun than another I should vote for it. If you vote against a character because you dislike it you should do it. etc. etc. etc...
Basically we should vote how we want. Debating about the better criteria for voting is fine, but saying that someone 'should' or 'shouldn't' vote a particular way is not accurate.
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I disagree, I think he should vote for who he wants to vote for. There is no set criteria or standard for voting. Yes it's a competition about who's the best EC, but there's no rule that says he can't vote based on whatever idea he has of being the 'best.' If hi123 thinks that he should vote for the underdog he should do it. If I like a character because it's more fun than another I should vote for it. If you vote against a character because you dislike it you should do it. etc. etc. etc...
Basically we should vote how we want. Debating about the better criteria for voting is find, but saying that someone 'should' or 'shouldn't' vote a particular way is not accurate.
Sure it's accurate. The competition isn't about petty revenge votes or voting on irrelevant criteria, it's about voting for whoever you think is the best character. The extent of leniency in the criteria a person uses to vote shouldn't extend beyond voting for character or that character's place in a theme, or similar options like that. "I voted for X character because the other character beat my favorite last round" makes trying to have a forum-wide bracket tournament to find the best EC pointless because not everyone is voting for the best EC. For those of us who are trying to take this seriously, it's pretty frustrating.
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The closest I'll come to "revenge voting" is when I say "X doesn't belong here," but even then I'll still vote for him if I think he's better than the other. KoT is better than WS, and WS doesn't belong here, so this is a no-brainer B)
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I disagree, I think he should vote for who he wants to vote for. There is no set criteria or standard for voting. Yes it's a competition about who's the best EC, but there's no rule that says he can't vote based on whatever idea he has of being the 'best.' If hi123 thinks that he should vote for the underdog he should do it. If I like a character because it's more fun than another I should vote for it. If you vote against a character because you dislike it you should do it. etc. etc. etc...
Basically we should vote how we want. Debating about the better criteria for voting is find, but saying that someone 'should' or 'shouldn't' vote a particular way is not accurate.
Sure it's accurate. The competition isn't about petty revenge votes or voting on irrelevant criteria, it's about voting for whoever you think is the best character. The extent of leniency in the criteria a person uses to vote shouldn't extend beyond voting for character or that character's place in a theme, or similar options like that. "I voted for X character because the other character beat my favorite last round" makes trying to have a forum-wide bracket tournament to find the best EC pointless because not everyone is voting for the best EC. For those of us who are trying to take this seriously, it's pretty frustrating.
I worked on a political campaign in my congressional district last year. I canvased neighborhoods attended rallies and helped my candidate. Yet despite the efforts of myself and those like me the other candidates won. I was serious about what I wanted, but I couldn't stop other people from voting for reasons that seemed silly to me.
The MM system is very similar, it's difficult to get people to see things your way as much as it makes sense to you, and even though you may be right. Does this mean that those people who have a different opinion (wrong or otherwise) should not be allowed to voice it? No, of course not, that destroys the market place of ideas, and actually encourages groupthink which can kill diversity of opinions.
Basically I will agree with you that it's frustrating when people have different opinions which can skew results, but there isn't really a solution to that, unless you think that communism is a reasonable solution of course... ::)
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You are trying to equate this to a political battleground. It's not. It is, by definition, a discussion of "BEST Character". If anyone is voting in another way (i.e. based on anything but the cards), then IMO, they can knock it off. It is incredibly annoying. Then these same people hold the debates their own favorites are in to a different standard. Also annoying.
And I'm entitled to that opinion as much as any other is permitted, so you can stop trying to tell me I shouldn't voice it :)
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Keep voicing your opinion. I look forward to at least two more threads that start out with you attempting to convince people KoT isn't that great B)
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Keep voicing your opinion. I look forward to at least two more threads that start out with you attempting to convince people KoT isn't that great B)
See you there! And I'll see you also in the next rulings thread that comes up about capture with placed cards too ;)
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You are trying to equate this to a political battleground. It's not. It is, by definition, a discussion of "BEST Character".
The parallel between politics and MM is that there is no legal definition of "best." In politics people are allowed to make their own definition of the "best" candidate. In MM there is no definition of "best" either, so people are allowed to vote the way they want.
If anyone is voting in another way (i.e. based on anything but the cards), then IMO, they can knock it off. It is incredibly annoying.
That's just it it's in your opinion, people who vote otherwise have a different opinion. Should we silence people becasue they have a different opinion? This the same philosophy that Stalin and Hitler held. I'm not equating you with Hitler, because you're not. I am saying though that you ought to be respectful of other opinions even if they may be annoying to you.
Then these same people hold the debates their own favorites are in to a different standard. Also annoying.
Again the definition of best allows for different even fluctuation standards. Though it's frustrating sometimes it is allowed under the rules and is completely legitimate.
And I'm entitled to that opinion as much as any other is permitted, so you can stop trying to tell me I shouldn't voice it :)
I'm not trying to stop you from voicing anything. I am however asking you to respect the opinions of others. This is something I'm quite familiar with becasue I know a lot of people I disagree with. For example, In my circle of acquaintances I know a lot of libertarians. Some are very vocal about their beliefs. Though I strongly disagree with a lot of libertarian beliefs I don't tell them that they shouldn't vote for libertarian candidates or openly tell them that their opinions annoy me. In conclusion I'm not trying to disrespect you or your ideas, I'm just asking you to respect the opinion of others, even if you do disagree with them.
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This the same philosophy that Stalin and Hitler held. I'm not equating you with Hitler, because you're not. I am saying though that you ought to be respectful of other opinions even if they may be annoying to you.
Aaaand, you just lost the argument by the rules of internet debates. DO NOT equate what I'm saying to Hitler or Stalin. And yes, by equating philosophies, you did compare me and my ideas. Even though you misquoted me again.
You have been disrespectful to me this entire thread, and I haven't been disrespectful at all to what you are describing. I never said they don't have the right. I am saying that they are doing something incredibly annoying to me. That's my right.
I'm going to just ignore your posts from here on out. If you have something to say to me, do it in PM. We're done here.
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The parallel between politics and MM is that there is no legal definition of "best." In politics people are allowed to make their own definition of the "best" candidate. In MM there is no definition of "best" either, so people are allowed to vote the way they want.
Within reason, sure. But "I'm voting for a character because they beat my favorite character last round" has nothing to do with what is the best evil character, and thus, such voting criteria is irrelevant and skews the results. There's no definition of "best," so I don't mind people voting on a character because of that character and that character alone (as opposed to me, who tends to vote for what character has the best place in a strong theme), but voting because of things that have to do with the tournament itself, rather than the characters in the tournament, makes having a tournament at all pointless.
That's just it it's in your opinion, people who vote otherwise have a different opinion. Should we silence people becasue they have a different opinion? This the same philosophy that Stalin and Hitler held. I'm not equating you with Hitler, because you're not. I am saying though that you ought to be respectful of other opinions even if they may be annoying to you.
This isn't politics, it's an internet tournament. I'm respectful of other opinions, but not when they have nothing to do with the actual point of the tournament. As an aside, I very rarely actually see someone fulfill Godwin's Law, so bravo.
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You have been disrespectful to me this entire thread
I apologize if you feel that you have been disrespected, I have meant none. My posts have not been meant as assaults on your character but rather an attempt to point out the legal legitimacy of certain viewpoints (despite the fact that they may not be legitimate in a practical sense).
Within reason, sure. But "I'm voting for a character because they beat my favorite character last round" has nothing to do with what is the best evil character, and thus, such voting criteria is irrelevant and skews the results. There's no definition of "best," so I don't mind people voting on a character because of that character and that character alone (as opposed to me, who tends to vote for what character has the best place in a strong theme), but voting because of things that have to do with the tournament itself, rather than the characters in the tournament, makes having a tournament at all pointless.
I wouldn't say that finding the best character is really the point of the tournament. If we really wanted to figure out what the best character was (according to popular vote) we would have something more like the silent ballot instead of using brackets and match-ups, since the bracketing does a lot to skew results anyway. I see March Madness not so much as an attempt of find the best character, as it is a chance to support your favorite characters in a match up against other characters. Though I do agree that the idea of searching for the best character this way is a cool and very fun, I don't think it's the most effective one and as such can be used as an outlet for favoritism.
This isn't politics, it's an internet tournament. I'm respectful of other opinions, but not when they have nothing to do with the actual point of the tournament. As an aside, I very rarely actually see someone fulfill Godwin's Law, so bravo.
This may not be politics but I think you can find parallels to democracy in any kind of system that functions by popular vote. I would say that you have been respectful of other opinions, and I appreciate that greatly. I do admire your effort to keep the tournament 'on task' even though I disagree with it slightly. As for Godwin's Law, I didn't even think about it... :P
In conclusion I'll just say that in an effort to find common ground and to bring some kind of resolution to this, I'll pledge to avoid voicing my opinions on characters that I think are 'best' for personal reasons. Sorry to cause such a stir, I just meant to point out that it's legal for each voter to base his opinion on whatever criteria he chooses.
Blessings,
Wings
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Really? Hitler came up in THIS thread? Internet, you never cease to amaze.
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Really? Hitler came up in THIS thread? Internet, you never cease to amaze.
;) I know sorry bout that, I just finished from a debate tournament, so I had him on the brain, we use him a lot he's the ultimate generic example since he takes 0 background information to explain how he impacts the discussion. because Hitler applies to everything, right?
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Back on the Topic:
WS I say is better than KoT (Orange) cause you can do so much more than just do a FBTN battle. WS send your demons to the bottom of deck, a great way to use Gates of Hell's ability. Also WS -> SoT -> Gomer -> Male Evil Character makes a much better combo than Gomer -> KoT.
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WS -> SoT -> Gomer -> Male Evil Character makes a much better combo than Gomer -> KoT.
What does WS add to that? SoT and WS going to the bottom if they lose. That's about it. Also, that takes waay more cards than Gomer/KoT (which isn't nearly the best KoT band, just the simplest). Furthermore, KoT can use his FBTN to his advantage by playing CBP/CBN cards, which there are a plethora of with all of his banding options.
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I'm mainly talking about the Orange KoT not the Gold one everyone uses
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I'm mainly talking about the Orange KoT not the Gold one everyone uses
Although the gold one is better, just as many people can band to the orange one as to the gold one.
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How often though do you see people use the Orange one though? The Meta defense won't use him cause of TGT and you really won't use the Orange except in a Orange splash or Mono-Orange defense.
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How often though do you see people use the Orange one though? The Meta defense won't use him cause of TGT and you really won't use the Orange exxcept in a Orange splash or Mono-Orange defense.
I use the orange one in my current deck because I use two other orange evil characters. Those orange evil characters will likely stay in my deck, since they merit me at least one block nearly every game.
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How often though do you see people use the Orange one though? The Meta defense won't use him cause of TGT and you really won't use the Orange except in a Orange splash or Mono-Orange defense.
A. The gold one is really hard to find at this point. TGT is a minimal threat since they can easily dispose of Ammy Slave, so you might as well use the orange one. It's a very rare situation for it to actually help.
B. Orange splash is better than gold splash. And Wandering Spirit is definitely less important than KoT in those splashes.
C. It's not about which KoT is used. Sure, the gold one is better than the orange one, but the gold one is also better than Wandering Spirit, as is the orange KoT (IMO).
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I agree that the gold one is better than WS but this is about orange EC so anyone who voted for KoT just cause they like the gold KoT really isn't voting the way they should be.
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I agree that the gold one is better than WS but this is about orange EC so anyone who voted for KoT just cause they like the gold KoT really isn't voting the way they should be.
C. It's not about which KoT is used. Sure, the gold one is better than the orange one, but the gold one is also better than Wandering Spirit, as is the orange KoT (IMO).
I don't see how you can draw such a big line between the gold and the orange. Both are really good. The gold has one more CBN battle winner that nobody uses, the orange one splashes much better.