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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Unofficial Tournaments => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption March Madness => Topic started by: Professoralstad on April 02, 2012, 01:35:06 PM
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Which is the better EC?
King Manasseh
Jezebel [RoA2]
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Manny for a repeat!
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Manny has a legitimate shot to repeat this year, his overall strength has not decreased too much since last year. Other defenses however have gained some ground on him, but even so, I don't think that there is a character out there who has better support than Manny does, so I think he should win Multi again without much of a fuss.
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Don't forget about Am Slave though. I think he'd give him a run for it anyway, but now with the new rules and the need for soul gen, Am Slave has this bracket locked up IMO.
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Don't forget about Am Slave though. I think he'd give him a run for it anyway, but now with the new rules and the need for soul gen, Am Slave has this bracket locked up IMO.
A slave has shot at winning multi, but he's negate-able, and Manny has a so many weapons.
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A slave has shot at winning multi, but he's negate-able, and Manny has a so many weapons.
...so is Manny. Am Slave has as many weapons as you have human EC, and he generates souls for you to rescue.
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Lets not forget about the fact that GoJ gives him drawing CBN status and protection in territory. This means FBTNB options and CBN auto-block potential. All that on top of the fact that he has access to several of the best battle-winners in the game and the fact that you can slap Charms on him. Oh did I forget that he can use Horses too? Am Slave winning multi? Please...
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Lets not forget about the fact that GoJ gives him drawing CBN status and protection in territory. This means FBTNB options and CBN auto-block potential. All that on top of the fact that he has access to several of the best battle-winners in the game and the fact that you can slap Charms on him. Oh did I forget that he can use Horses too? Am Slave winning multi? Please...
This, Manny has tons of ways to win battles.
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This, Manny has tons of ways to win battles.
Which of course helps you in T1 to deal with Soul Drought, and matters at all when no one worries about defense anyway (or ignores him with TGT). Yep, absolutely :)
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(or ignores him with TGT). Yep, absolutely :)
Image of Jealousy [Thesaurus] says bring it on!
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This, Manny has tons of ways to win battles.
Which of course helps you in T1 to deal with Soul Drought, and matters at all when no one worries about defense anyway (or ignores him with TGT). Yep, absolutely :)
Lost Soul drought isn't a problem when you have a beastly defense led by King Manny.
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This, Manny has tons of ways to win battles.
Which of course helps you in T1 to deal with Soul Drought, and matters at all when no one worries about defense anyway (or ignores him with TGT). Yep, absolutely :)
He deals with soul drought because he extends the game long enough for the opponent to actually draw souls. Also TAS is just as susceptible to TGT in a lot of cases more so than Manny is because of how much he is splashed.
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So, if Manny is your lynchpin (meaning he'll get AoTL or Grapes in battle, or otherwise murdered by the various offense's interrupt/negate-discards), what happens when he dies? You still have no soul to rescue, right.
In fact, Am Slave can get you Manny. He needs no support. He just does his thing and gets you something to rescue, plus an EC you need. Manny needs at least 2 other cards to be used (prot fort and horses or charms), and the whole combo to be "unstoppable"...for a turn or two.
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So, if Manny is your lynchpin (meaning he'll get AoTL or Grapes in battle, or otherwise murdered by the various offense's interrupt/negate-discards), what happens when he dies? You still have no soul to rescue, right.
If Manny is your lynchpin he'll be back in territory before the opponent can do anything
In fact, Am Slave can get you Manny. He needs no support. He just does his thing and gets you something to rescue, plus an EC you need. Manny needs at least 2 other cards to be used (prot fort and horses or charms), and the whole combo to be "unstoppable"...for a turn or two.
Just because he gets you Manny doesn't make him Manny, the reason TAS is good in a deck with Manny is because he helps you get to Manny faster.
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So, if Manny is your lynchpin (meaning he'll get AoTL or Grapes in battle, or otherwise murdered by the various offense's interrupt/negate-discards), what happens when he dies? You still have no soul to rescue, right.
Enjoy. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-card-play/manasseh-is-op/)
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So, if Manny is your lynchpin (meaning he'll get AoTL or Grapes in battle, or otherwise murdered by the various offense's interrupt/negate-discards), what happens when he dies? You still have no soul to rescue, right.
If Manny is your lynchpin he'll be back in territory before the opponent can do anything
In fact, Am Slave can get you Manny. He needs no support. He just does his thing and gets you something to rescue, plus an EC you need. Manny needs at least 2 other cards to be used (prot fort and horses or charms), and the whole combo to be "unstoppable"...for a turn or two.
Just because he gets you Manny doesn't make him Manny, the reason TAS is good in a deck with Manny is because he helps you get to Manny faster.
Plus, Manny can even be good in the discard pile, with King Amon.
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If Manny is your lynchpin he'll be back in territory before the opponent can do anything
Yeah, that doesn't stop doms, and there's only so many enhancements you can bring to bear (especially anything CBN) before he dies. How many blocks can you realistically get out of him? Not enough, IMO.
Plus, Manny can even be good in the discard pile, with King Amon.
I find more use of TAS in my LoR...since that's the object of the game :D
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If Manny is your lynchpin he'll be back in territory before the opponent can do anything
Yeah, that doesn't stop doms, and there's only so many enhancements you can bring to bear (especially anything CBN) before he dies. How many blocks can you realistically get out of him? Not enough, IMO.
Yeah he will be back in territory, where he is protected by GoJ. With 2KH he drops play first Gib Trick, Wonders for gotten, Plot, CBN band to KoT, 2-3 auto blocks with him if you have HHI up and lets not forget Charms either. You can stall your opponent for 4-5 turns easy with Manny, plenty of time for him to draw the souls you need.
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Plus, Manny can even be good in the discard pile, with King Amon.
I find more use of TAS in my LoR...since that's the object of the game :D
You'll never get him there if Manny is in your opponent's territory... ::)
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So...let me get this straight, you're adding more cards that he relies on for blocks? Without Horses, he's dead. Without prot fort, he's dead and negatable. Without your TC, he's ignored still. KoT doesn't stop everyone who uses CBN enhancements (which...is pretty much everyone nowadays). Without HHI, banding still prevents his SA from doing anything decent with the discard. Even if he wins, unless it's Trick you played, they can still AoTL or Grapes him away.
So, he's not so much good as an entire deck built around him is, is that what you're saying? And yes, he will die rather easily, as pointed out :)
Name of the game is rescuing souls.
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So...let me get this straight, you're adding more cards that he relies on for blocks? Without Horses, he's dead. Without prot fort, he's dead and negatable. Without your TC, he's ignored still. KoT doesn't stop everyone who uses CBN enhancements (which...is pretty much everyone nowadays). Without HHI, banding still prevents his SA from doing anything decent with the discard.
The thing is this Manny has so many cards that help him block it's rare occastion that you don't have one of those cards. Don't have horses? Doesn't matter I've got HHI. Don't Have HHI? Oh well I got KoT. He has TGT out? Doesn't matter the opponent didn't realize that I actually used a defense so I have enough characters in the same color to where it doesn't matter. Drew him early in the game to where there aren't enough characters? It's still good because I just drew Image of Jealousy.
Even if he wins, unless it's Trick you played, they can still AoTL or Grapes him away.
I think you mean gib trick, forgotten history, or wonders forgotten.
So, he's not so much good as an entire deck built around him is, is that what you're saying?
He makes the deck built around him awesome similar to AUTO or TGT.
And yes, he will die rather easily, as pointed out :)
That Seldom happens unless you use him improperly
Name of the game is rescuing souls.
But you have to rescue them before the other guy does, Manny makes sure the other guys doesn't.
EDIT:
I forgot to mention that TAS has some popular counters that you need to consider. Blue Tassels, FBTNB, John/Ishmiah etc. It's not like TAS is garunteed to work, I often find that he just sits there in my territory because the opponent went in with a negate hero or is a TGT user...
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I don't really worry about AotL killing him after he's already blocked. That's a net of two turns set back rather than just one. Grapes can pull out a re-rescue, but only if you're behind, which you shouldn't be if you're so busy rescuing slaves and not running defense :)
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Even if he wins, unless it's Trick you played, they can still AoTL or Grapes him away.
I think you mean gib trick, forgotten history, or wonders forgotten.
Less Wonders Forgotten and more Worshipping Demons (Spirit of Temptation band, which just fits with KoT). And DoU always works well to cap things off...
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I find it a bit funny that the debate is between characters that aren't even against each other yet and everyone has already forgotten about Jezebel.
I know that Manny has awesome potential as an evil character and won't be surprised if he wins but I think that people are underestimating Jezebel.
I've had multiple games where I removed a key character (Samuel, Armorbearer, Joseph, Isaiah, Micah, etc) to shut down their offense and help me win the game. In a couple games I've removed 3 of their key heros. The band and play off of Ahab is also strong.
In my defense heavy deck, I include both and both help but I think Jezebel has actually stopped their offense more than King Manny.
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I really do like Jez, but Manny is just better then her by a long shot.
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Defenses built around a single EC are terrible. This leads to dead draws more times than not. Manny's only silver lining is his auto-block and capability to carry Charms. Therefore he still fits better in the splash defense.
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I disagree with that to an extent. A defense that uses Manny is already a decent defense without him. Since it's probably either Kings of Judah or Magicians, adding Manny to them makes those defenses go from good to awesome.
Similar to what TGT does for a TGT deck. Or what AUTO does for a Sam deck.
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I disagree with that to an extent. A defense that uses Manny is already a decent defense without him. Since it's probably either Kings of Judah or Magicians, adding Manny to them makes those defenses go from good to awesome.
Similar to what TGT does for a TGT deck. Or what AUTO does for a Sam deck.
Those examples are way too extreme, especially since Manny is actually one of the weaker magicians without Gates behind him (at which point, you're playing a Judean/Magicians defense, not a Magicians defense). I would say that Manny is to Kings of Judah what Salome is to TGT, or maybe even Mary, Mother of James is to TGT. Useful, but not the lynchpin.
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You're right, I think your examples are better.
I still think though, that the argument I made refutes MKC's statement that a Manny defense is terrible without Manny.
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I disagree with that to an extent. A defense that uses Manny is already a decent defense without him. Since it's probably either Kings of Judah or Magicians, adding Manny to them makes those defenses go from good to awesome.
Similar to what TGT does for a TGT deck. Or what AUTO does for a Sam deck.
Those examples are way too extreme, especially since Manny is actually one of the weaker magicians without Gates behind him (at which point, you're playing a Judean/Magicians defense, not a Magicians defense). I would say that Manny is to Kings of Judah what Salome is to TGT, or maybe even Mary, Mother of James is to TGT. Useful, but not the lynchpin.
Judean defenses don't exist. A brown defense would have Gomer, Uzzah, King Mannaseh, and Jeering Youths (extra play first). Then you have the magician part (likely Damsel, Egyptian Magicians, Assyrian Survivor, and Assyrian Siege Army), which will probably include SWS, Wandering Spirit, Spirit of Temptation, and KoT.
Yeah, it's a big defense, but look at those characters. Awesome. Plus you get 3 end the battles (for best effect, use Manny) and 2 soul shufflers.
However, I agree that Manny is more like an MMOJ than a TGT.
Instaposted.
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I disagree with your statement that Judean Defenses don't exist. Manny, Rehoboam, Ammon, and Zedekiah. Are all good characters for a a Judean kings defense. Manny is well Manny, Rehoboam is the lynchpin for some seriously awesome combos, Ammon has great recursion, and Dungeon + Zed wins battles and gets you a soul. Throw in Uzzah, TAS, Gomer, KoT and Damsel. And you have a good brown (mostly kings of Judah) defense with KoT, and Damsel being the only oddballs.
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I disagree with that to an extent. A defense that uses Manny is already a decent defense without him. Since it's probably either Kings of Judah or Magicians, adding Manny to them makes those defenses go from good to awesome.
Similar to what TGT does for a TGT deck. Or what AUTO does for a Sam deck.
Those examples are way too extreme, especially since Manny is actually one of the weaker magicians without Gates behind him (at which point, you're playing a Judean/Magicians defense, not a Magicians defense). I would say that Manny is to Kings of Judah what Salome is to TGT, or maybe even Mary, Mother of James is to TGT. Useful, but not the lynchpin.
Judean defenses don't exist. A brown defense would have Gomer, Uzzah, King Mannaseh, and Jeering Youths (extra play first). Then you have the magician part (likely Damsel, Egyptian Magicians, Assyrian Survivor, and Assyrian Siege Army), which will probably include SWS, Wandering Spirit, Spirit of Temptation, and KoT.
No Rehoboam? For shame! Also, I'm not sure I'd include ASA with only Survivor to complement it; I'd be more likely to include another magicians (probably Astrologers).
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No Rehoboam? For shame! Also, I'm not sure I'd include ASA with only Survivor to complement it; I'd be more likely to include another magicians (probably Astrologers).
Depends on the offense. I'm not a huge fan of Rehoboam just because he tends to give initiative away.
I go back and forth on ASA, but my most recent version had him (though it was entirely untested). I do like Astrologers though.
I disagree with your statement that Judean Defenses don't exist. Manny, Rehoboam, Ammon, and Zedekiah. Are all good characters for a a Judean kings defense. Manny is well Manny, Rehoboam is the lynchpin for some seriously awesome combos, Ammon has great recursion, and Dungeon + Zed wins battles and gets you a soul. Throw in Uzzah, TAS, Gomer, KoT and Damsel. And you have a good brown (mostly kings of Judah) defense with KoT, and Damsel being the only oddballs.
Amon needs Manny in the discard pile, and that hopefully won't happen. There are definitely better options.
KoT and Damsel really wouldn't be oddballs though with Magic Charms Gomer/Manny. Manny's full potential is utilized by PG though.
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No Rehoboam? For shame! Also, I'm not sure I'd include ASA with only Survivor to complement it; I'd be more likely to include another magicians (probably Astrologers).
Depends on the offense. I'm not a huge fan of Rehoboam just because he tends to give initiative away.
I go back and forth on ASA, but my most recent version had him (though it was entirely untested). I do like Astrologers though.
I just think that, if you're already using Gates of Jerusalem, you may as well add Rehoboam, since he has a great ability (that becomes CBN), and allows you to either kill your opponent's hero or otherwise use your own hero's ability. I wouldn't just splash him into a brown deck, but if you're using GoJ, why not?
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There's no reason to not to include him, or at least that's my conclusion. He's an extra D1 with gates, he can get rid of a hero, or use some amazing combos like pulling off Hur + Gifts mid-block to draw cards and disrupt his hand. Or get someone like Micah into battle to do his recursion without having to make a rescue with him. Maybe you put your inish prophet in the battle so you can play search and get out CM or Grapes to get the block. The possibilities are almost endless...