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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: redemption collector 777 on October 28, 2019, 02:57:42 PM
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Was just wondering if set rotation were to happen (seems likely at this point) what does that exactly mean?
If set rotation happened does this mean tournaments would be have 2 categories?
for example:
Legacy category (any cards can be played)
and
Modern category (only cards from X set and up are allowed to be played)
Could players still play all the cards printed ever since the limited set came out in casual games?
Does anyone have any ideas of what set rotation would look like?
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Can I get a link to all the talk of set rotation? I'm not sure I'm a fan. Even though I'm a collector saying old cards are worthless leaves a pretty bitter taste in my mouth.
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There has been some discussion on the discord as well as numerous threads, you can try searching for it in the search bar. The basic gist is that the law of card games dictates that the larger a pool of cards becomes, decks become faster and more efficient. The faster and more efficient the average deck becomes, the easier it is to identify the objectively fastest/most resilient strategy. It is inevitable that an ever increasing pool of cards will eventually reach a singularity one deck is so far above all the others that anyone who wants to be competitive has to use it or at the very least, a deck built with the sole intent of countering that one deck.
Redemption has escaped this problem by introducing massive power creep over the years so old sets have basically been rotating out already because they become obsolete so the card pool has not actually been getting much larger. However, now that the game has settled on the proper power level, every new set is introducing hundreds of viable cards with hardly any old ones becoming obsolete. Rotation is necessary to reduce the card pool. The only other way to keep from reaching the deck singularity is to ban cards that enable it on a case by case basis which Redemption has already had to do with CoL. Even though it wasn't technically banned because people have an entrenched fear of that concept, the card was errata'd to the point that it is now a completely different card. Effectively the original CoL was banned and a new, much less card was made to replace it.
As the game goes longer without set rotation, situations like CoL will become increasingly common and deck diversity will suffer. It is an absolute fact that a card game must either rotate cards (formally or through power creep), ban cards, stop printing new cards, or eventually reach the deck singularity. I've seen a couple people voice concerns that bans and rotation reduce deck diversity but this is absolutely false. The sole purpose of rotation and bans is to increase the number of viable strategies and the health of the meta.
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Set rotation, while having the potential to be incredibly valuable if well executed, has felt in my opinion as being a potential barrier from the game to those who “can’t keep up” with new sets. Could it fix problems like King Jehu and similar problematic cards? Certainly. Could it have unseen repercussions, like missing out on a Acts of Solomon, down the line for the game as a whole? Also possible. Perhaps it might only be pride in being able to say that every card, save 1, is still playable since this game’s beginning. I don’t know if any other game like Redemption that can say that. If set rotation is implemented, at the very least we have the mother load of potential for new cards because of Scripture.
At the end of the day, I’d rather not see rotation happen, but I will leave that decision in the hands of those who know greater than I. If any mod wants to move this to a more relevant post, please do.
Nathan L.
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What is CoL?
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What is CoL?
CoL is Children of Light (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/thejambi/RedemptionLackeyCCG/master/RedemptionQuick/sets/setimages/general/49-Children-of-Light.jpg). The card was initially printed as an incentive for Armor/Fruit decks, allowing the user to replace the enhancemnet they placed on it, and eventually making a very difficult-to-defeat hero. I seem to recall one of the playtesters even mentioning that they tried to make a deck that was built around using CoL and every singe Fruit and Armor piece to draw incredibly quickly, but found it gimmicky and unreliable.
Once RoJ came out, however, several high-level players found a way to make the deck not only incredibly reliable but incredibly fast and safe. Kony decks (as they were called) dominated Nats 2017. After Nats, CoL was erratad - it no longer has the middle sentence (the draw engine that made it so powerful in the first place). It's also no coincidence that the next set, Fall of Man, is a bit heavy on Regardless of Protection abilities.
CoL isn't the only example. Mayhem has been changed several times. Even still, I think A New Beginning (Pa) still holds the record as the most erratad card.
As the game goes longer without set rotation, situations like CoL will become increasingly common and deck diversity will suffer. It is an absolute fact that a card game must either rotate cards (formally or through power creep), ban cards, stop printing new cards, or eventually reach the deck singularity. I've seen a couple people voice concerns that bans and rotation reduce deck diversity but this is absolutely false. The sole purpose of rotation and bans is to increase the number of viable strategies and the health of the meta.
I think this is the heart of the matter. Redemption has traditionally been a power creep game, replacing last year's dominant strategies with better, stronger, faster ones. That said, I think at this point the elders have a pretty good idea about where they want the power level to be - and generally speaking I think most of them would say something a bit south of AUtO/Sam/Saul/Abby/Dave/Throne. While there are alternatives being printed every year, this combo has been near the top for a while. This crowds out some really cool and unique cards, since every competitive deck has to run something that can keep up with Throne, or slow them down enough to keep up. Rotating can help bring diversity by allowing some lesser-run decks room to grow.
That said, in order for this to work there needs to be a significant card base for every brigade. If rotation were to happen today, I imagine that Flood would just become the new dominant deck, since that offense only uses a few pre-redesign cards. Some brigades and themes would be gutted - teal hurts a lot, NT Gold is practically just Nobleman (who doesn't do anything alone), brown loses most non-Persian/prophets, disciples may as well be clay. Many of the post-redesign sets have had significant themes (EC and PC were clay, RoJ was very silver/clay/orange, PoC was very, very green). I think that before we can rotate we really need to make sure that every brigade is viable - that's the point of rotating in the first place, after all.
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Set rotation, while having the potential to be incredibly valuable if well executed, has felt in my opinion as being a potential barrier from the game to those who “can’t keep up” with new sets. Could it fix problems like King Jehu and similar problematic cards? Certainly. Could it have unseen repercussions, like missing out on a Acts of Solomon, down the line for the game as a whole? Also possible. Perhaps it might only be pride in being able to say that every card, save 1, is still playable since this game’s beginning. I don’t know if any other game like Redemption that can say that. If set rotation is implemented, at the very least we have the mother load of potential for new cards because of Scripture.
At the end of the day, I’d rather not see rotation happen, but I will leave that decision in the hands of those who know greater than I. If any mod wants to move this to a more relevant post, please do.
Nathan L.
I'm not sure I understand why you think rotation will be a barrier. Right now, new players have to get a bunch of brand new cards as well as lots of old staples in order to keep up. After rotation, they'll only need to get brand new cards and won't have to worry about hunting down old staples.
What is CoL?
Children of Light. The original version let you draw a card every time you placed an enhancement on it and that enabled a deck that would consistency play every single card in the deck on turn 2 or 3 and then have a nearly unstoppable Hero with all the armor and most of the fruits of the spirit. It took 1st and 2nd place at 2017 Nationals. The final draft of the deck I built had 100% winrate over about 50 testing games, all of iron man, and finally lost a single game during T1 2P but only because I accidentally cheated against myself by putting Consider the Lilies in my discard pile like a normal enhancement instead of shuffling it into my deck. The singular game that version of the deck hasn't won aside from that was another game in that same tournament where one of the triplets managed to actually Toss the fully loaded CoL to death and we locked each other out in a tie.
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Rotation is exactly that. A barrier. It will force metas and ultimately ruin the game. Card games do not need a rotation. That is a false statement. Smaller card pool only hurts some decks and fuels others.
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I think a better description of what is being discussed for Redemption is "sun setting" or "phasing out" and I think it would be very good for the game. There is so much old wording that desperately needs updating.
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Is there a time frame when the rotation might start?
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Is there a time frame when the rotation might start?
There isn't, but I'm pretty certain it won't be until sometime after Nationals 2021.
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Is there a time frame when the rotation might start?
There isn't, but I'm pretty certain it won't be until sometime after Nationals 2021.
Awesome thanks for the reply! :)
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That allows PoC, LoC and the OoC sets to run their course... I am enjoying this ride we call Redemption and the new things to come...
Godspeed,
Mike
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That allows PoC, LoC and the GoC sets to run their course... I am enjoying this ride we call Redemption and the new things to come...
Godspeed,
Mike
FTFY
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What is CoL?
😆😆😘👌🏻🇺🇸
CoL, Children of Light, is the single most Christ like example of a spiritual warrior fully loaded in the armor of God and fruit of the spirit 😇 that deck as built could win turn one in the right conditions ✔️
👍🏻👍🏻
Rotation is definitely good for the game and the app will bring rotation naturally 😊
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I don't know what FTFY means, but fishing is fun, catching is better... ;)
Godspeed,
Mike
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I don't know what FTFY means, but fishing is fun, catching is better... ;)
Godspeed,
Mike
FTFY = Fixed That For You
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That allows PoC, LoC and the GoC sets to run their course... I am enjoying this ride we call Redemption and the new things to come...
Godspeed,
Mike
FTFY
GoC?!?
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That allows PoC, LoC and the GoC sets to run their course... I am enjoying this ride we call Redemption and the new things to come...
Godspeed,
Mike
FTFY
GoC?!?
Considering the pattern of the last couple of sets, I'd guess something along the lines of Gospel of Christ or Grace of Christ as the name of the set after Lineage of Christ.
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Gift of Christ, maybe? God did send us His only Son, so I can think of no greater Gift.
Godspeed,
Mike
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Glory
Greatness
Goodness
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It's been an amazing ride, to be sure. I'm really glad to be pulled back into the game. Being a primarily prophets player, PoC was a much-welcomed addition to my decks and collection. I'm having fun starting my collection of LoC. So I'm looking forward to GoC, too.
I've also enjoyed the new game-play mechanics: David's Star cards, the Reserve, expanded use of territory class. Hopefully there are more...
Maybe...since it's Gospel of Christ, a new card type could be Parables - a card that activates in set-aside. It could be a way to increase use of the set-aside area.
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Set rotation is a necessary part of a CCG. As stated earlier in the thread, without this dominant deck types can take over the tournament scene and the diversity and innovation of the game is compromised. It also destroys the value of older cards that don't fit into the latest and greatest deck designs.
What seems to be missing in the conversation though is the tournament format. Sure there are 7 categories of tournaments, but they all (except maybe draft) have abandoned the older cards. With the huge catalog of cards available, more formats could definitely be developed. Formats that focused on different blocks of sets.
- The vintage tourney which only allows cards prior to the Disciples set.
- The current tourney which only uses cards from the current set (or last couple of sets).
- The Beginner tourney which only uses cards from Prophets and Original.
I'm sure that if we put our heads together we could come up with some formats that renew excitement in vintage cards again. That way rotation is not such a bitter pill and there remains value in the older cards in your collection.
Peace!
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@STAMP:
I really like your idea of Parables activating in set-aside! Unique and would be interested to get some of the card creators thoughts on that idea.
@Smootz:
Good news, discussions of rotation on the official Redemption discord have involved tournament format. Basically from what I have gathered this is what will happen:
1. Classic format: This format will allow use of all cards from all sets (probably minus banned cards).
2. Rotation Format (New Card Face Format): This will be the official rotation category. It will include only cards with the new card face onward that was implemented with the I/J starter decks and has been utilized through the latest set LoC.
Both of these options will be offered for T1-2P and T2-2P from what I can tell.
So yeah your idea regarding tournament format is right on track and is what the Redemption elders have indicated will happen! Also if you are not on the Redemption Discord I would encourage you to join. The message boards are still utilized but there is more activity on the Discord at the moment. Instructions on how to join are found here: https://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/discord-for-the-redemption-ccg-community!/ (https://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/discord-for-the-redemption-ccg-community!/)
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Thanks! I'll check it out.
Peace!
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Also to add or rephrase some thoughts mentioned:
Dont think of a "rotating set" as a card/deck killer. It's secretly a different playstyle/format. Many games (CCGS, boards games, video games, etc) do this to present more options to player to increase "playability."
So currently, in constructed, Redemption has (this is to serve as a simple example to show more options and not an official comment on how it would exactly be done or the specific limits)
Type 1 - single - ALL sets
Type 1 - multi - ALL sets
Type 2 -single - ALL sets
Type 2 - multi - ALL sets
after introducing a set rotation, here is a projected view:
Type 1 - single - ALL sets
Type 1 - single - rotation
Type 1 - multi - ALL sets
Type 1 -multi - rotation
Type 2 -single - ALL sets
Type 2 -single -rotation
Type 2 - multi - ALL sets
Type 2 multi - rotation
Casual games can decided which format they want, tournament hosts can choose which format best serves their communities.
As a CCG-collector who has sold enough cards to buy a house and fund my neices and nephews college bills: rotations, when done correctly, are amazing for CCGS. They increase creativity, they decrease barriers of entry for new players (because they can choose a "smaller" format until they build their collection), they allow cards to have a "deeper" value set (because some cards that may be terrible in one format may be super stars in another), perhaps the best part: it allows the developers more room to create cards, and finally, all of this happens without sacrificing anything to the current game. For those who want to continue to play with all the sets, you still can!
In whichever route the leadership takes, a big thank you for all your work and effort you do for the community! Much respect and love to you guys. I'm a busy guy, but am always happy to help in any way I can! And I would like to add that I am confident in however they decided to pilot this choice, it will be with us in mind and they have my support!