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What Do You Want in K/L?

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Sean:

--- Quote from: Watchman on November 06, 2021, 04:11:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: Sean on November 06, 2021, 03:15:23 PM ---It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.

--- End quote ---


The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is it’s more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isn’t; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it can’t go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesn’t do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you can’t use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability there’s a 50% chance it’ll make the deck cut.

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I learned how to use Sites when I was like 13 years old from reading a card insert.  I don't think it's as complicated as you think.

Watchman:
@Sean Under that logic there are other cards/abilities that could also be included in starters too that could be considered not as complex as one thinks. You may have understood it at 13, but others at that age or younger may not or may feel more overwhelmed with several card types and abilities.  The issue is that for new players there needs to be limited card types and abilities in starter decks. That’s the whole point of them being starter decks. Sites aren’t that important anyways and aren’t used too often (as they used to be years ago) in constructed play vs other card types that are. And there is also the issue of sites in sealed deck play that would be virtually dead cards, particularly if they’re meek. Ultimately it’s up to the elders to include them or not.

TheJaylor:
One way to offset the Sealed deck downside would be having cards that interact with the Site, similar to Enslaved by Egypt. Something like "Discard a Hero (or 2 if Babylon is in play)." Wouldn't necessarily need an ability and probably wouldn't be included in most Sealed decks unless enough cards interacted with it, but it at least wouldn't be completely dead.

I do think that the Starter decks could be made in such a way where you don't need to get into the nitty gritty details of how Sites work, like removing the Site while it's occupied or having neutral brigades. I do agree with Derek though that even the amount of seemingly simple rules needs to be limited as to not be additively overwhelming.

Regarding "negating last", you can play a "Negate an evil card" against an Enhancement that removes itself, so I think removing "negate last" abilities wouldn't necessarily mean we couldn't use cards to Lahmi's Spear, but I guess it has to be weighed as either an opportunity to teach more about special initiative or something that can be confusing early on.

Arkon:
Hello all, new player here. Really new.

I had read up and watched videos on various aspects of the game before playing my first match with the starter decks, so I went in knowing there was more to this game than what the starter decks have. I really like the game so far and look forward to implementing the advanced stuff a bit later on.

With that out of the way, here's some ideas I would like to see in future decks:

1. K and L maintaining their simplicity as starter decks for the really new players that need to be eased into a game as complex as Redemption. I and J did a fantastic job of demonstrating the really core basics.

2. A second set to go along with K and L (sold separately from the starter decks and/or as part of a big combo pack or something). The second set would be all the bells and whistles missing from the starter sets. Whether it's called M and N or K Advanced and L Advanced (or whatever haha), I would really like to see the starter deck line continue while introducing a different 2 deck set for the fresh players to graduate to when they are ready and willing to learn the advanced stuff. The advanced decks would come with their own rulebook explaining the added features from the starter decks while the starter rulebook would somehow make mention of the advanced decks.

tl;dr: I would really like to see the introduction of a 2 player advanced decks set while the 2 player starter decks continue mostly as is.

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