Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: drb1200 on March 18, 2013, 01:18:07 PM
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Sorry for the long subject title.
As you all know, I am very interested in improving Redemption's look and marketability for a wider audience. Many people on this forum believe that Redemption is failing simply because it is a christian card game and therefore cannot compete with huge TCGs like Magic the Gathering and Yugioh. Right now in mainstream market, christian products are exceeding greatly. For example, The Bible TV series drew the most viewers so far for 2013 for any tv programming, and Walmart now has a christian book section that includes biblical graphic novels. So why is Redemption dying and/or invisible to the mainstream market?
1) ZERO internet marketing. MTG has both a frequently updated website and a twitter account. Redemption has neither (website is updated once a year at the most to advertise the new set). In this age it is ESSENTIAL to have an active online presence. I suggest Cactus purchasing redemptiontcg.com and have an official twitter for the game. When people can find you easier, you will get more players and thus can release more cards.
2) Showcase the cards on the website. There are no pictures of actual cards on the website, which is strange.
3) As of right now I believe Cactus has a top-notch Starter Deck in the works that could be used in a huge way to draw new players. Go all out for starter decks. New art, new designs, whatever. I'll go more into this when I see what Cactus comes up with.
4) Improve graphic design and art. Not gonna talk about this further because you can find all my work in the New Card Ideas forum.
5) Spice up set names. Instead of names like The Disciples, The Priests, Rock of Ages etc, try taking the MTG route and doing mysterious/dramatic names (Gatecrash, Return to Ravnica are great expansion names). How about Conquering Canaan or Visions of the End?
6) Know your audience. Kids like shiny, mega rare ultra special cards. Take the Yugioh route here. Instead of a boring Angel of the Lord card, try a shiny, golden piece of mega might. Have an obvious indicator on the cards of how rare something is.
7) Get back to booster packs. Everyone likes ripping open a 15 card booster pack with the guarentee of a rare, ultra rare or mythic rare.
8) Instead of a boring box that says "Starter Decks" on it, do a KING DAVID vs ABADDON THE DESTROYER. Really, which one would you rather play?
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcactusgamedesign.com%2Fimages_redemption%2Fred_starter_e_f.jpg&hash=1687bea268d04257a900107b19fad3eb72d2c2ea)(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trollandtoad.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fpictures%2F803694.jpg&hash=c7c9b0d7b5288426d6b976ae92450d0bcfea245e)
I'm not trying to turn Redemption into MTG, but I think there's a ton Redemption could learn from it.
Speaking of packaging, always advertise one of the most powerful cards in the pack on the front. If there's an ABADDON THE DESTROYER in this battle pack, put a sticker that says so or display the card through the packaging.
What does everyone think? Suggestions? Disagreements? Rude remarks? ;)
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1) ZERO internet marketing. MTG has both a frequently updated website and a twitter account. Redemption has neither (website is updated once a year at the most to advertise the new set). In this age it is ESSENTIAL to have an active online presence. I suggest Cactus purchasing redemptiontcg.com and have an official twitter for the game. When people can find you easier, you will get more players and thus can release more cards.
This is a big thing I hadn't really considered much. Everyone is aware that Cactus does essentially zero marketing on Redemption, however, this could be big to draw people in. Does anyone remember the stunt that (I believe) Randall and Roy pulled at New Jersey states a couple years ago? They had a big Redemption logo. Supplementing that with a link that goes straight to the Redemption site could be huge ("http://cactusgamedesign.com/redemption.php" doesn't exactly scream "quality CCG"). Additionally, a complete redesign of the Redemption portion of the site could be a big boost as well. When a good chunk of your market is going to come from RLKs, appealing to them (using cool colors and designs) in advertising will go a long way. The obvious caveat to all this is that any kind of effective redesign is probably going to cost money. Buying the domain should be relatively cheap, but unless someone on here wants to donate hours and hours of their time, an actual redesign of the site to make it more appealing is probably out of reach right now.
2) Showcase the cards on the website. There are no pictures of actual cards on the website, which is strange.
This would be especially worthwhile if ideas 3, 4, and 6 were implemented.
4) Improve graphic design and art. Not gonna talk about this further because you can find all my work in the New Card Ideas forum.
I didn't pay much attention to your thread until about a week ago, but it's easy to see that the effect of a redesign are striking. I never had much of a problem with the Redemption design (having never gotten into another CCG), but now I find it hard to be content with them. So long as you formally signed over the rights over to Rob, I would love to see your redesign be how the new cards look.
5) Spice up set names. Instead of names like The Disciples, The Priests, Rock of Ages etc, try taking the MTG route and doing mysterious/dramatic names (Gatecrash, Return to Ravnica are great expansion names). How about Conquering Canaan or Visions of the End?
I wasn't really sold on this idea until I saw your proposed names. "Visions of the End" is so outrageously better than "Revelations" or anything like that that it makes me want to support a Revelation-based set now. ::)
6) Know your audience. Kids like shiny, mega rare ultra special cards. Take the Yugioh route here. Instead of a boring Angel of the Lord card, try a shiny, golden piece of mega might. Have an obvious indicator on the cards of how rare something is.
I think this is another big one. Once you learn to search for that gold border, it becomes exciting, but if it was switched so that ultra rares were golden foils or something, it would increase the excitement level for younger players, because the cards look cooler (especially when the card is something like King of Tyrus with solid art).
7) Get back to booster packs. Everyone likes ripping open a 15 card booster pack with the guarentee of a rare, ultra rare or mythic rare.
This is one that's hard to implement, due to cost. My understanding is that the reason we haven't had a booster pack in so long is that they're by far the most expensive to make, especially since they require more cards. I'm not sure what the price comparison of TxP to Priests is, but if TxP/Disciples was significantly cheaper, then I think that's a good route to continue going down. The issue though, is that you still have to capture the "feel" of booster packs, and the only way to do that is to give players something worth hunting for. I don't think I've heard anyone describe opening a Disciples pack as "exciting," because there's nothing valuable you're searching for. Meanwhile, TxP has Grapes and Mayhem, which makes me much more likely to purchase a pack on a whim.
Anyway, these are all brilliant ideas.
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1) Being a web designer the current state of CGDs site has long been something I hated looking at, and that carries over in to these forums. The theme that we use on these boards is the default theme on Simple Machines boards, a lot could be done to personalize it and make the experience a lot less "off the shelf" feeling. The site that I run is a good example of this (community.wearegoradio.com) It looks nothing like the stock theme, and truth be told would look a lot better than that if I had been given more than 24 hours to complete the theme (a gripe for another day and another setting). Overall though that board feels a lot more like a Go Radio community rather than a generic one because the page matches well with the rest of their site and if not for the standard tumblr buttons on the homepage you'd never know that site is hosted on completely separate servers, the front page being a tumblr blog and the community being hosted on a regular web server. Much the same could be done with these forums to make them feel more like a continuous part of the CGD or redemption pages, and BOTH of those pages are also in need of a redesign. I feel I'd be wasting my time to offer my services at this point as none of my offers to improve this board have been met with so much as an email back.
2) This seems so obvious and yet it's not done......
3) I doubt the design has been changed and it's far too late in the process to change it now.
4) I love that thread, even if I don't play the game anymore I'd still prefer to see something more modern like your designs.
5) Yes.
6) Kids aren't the only ones that like shiny things either ;) but the concept of rarity does need to make a comeback.
7) Like chris said, it's probably more of a money issue.
8) also yes
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Many excellent points here.
1. Yes, so yes. #fourtenTOTHEFACE
5. Especially liked this point, set names should be far more dynamic than essentially just coming up very simple identifiers.
6. Nailed it, people are more interested in a card game when there is something that motivates them to continue purchasing product. Searching for those hard to find cards keeps people engaged.
7. Booster packs have always been fun to rip, if not only further perpetuated by the above point. Redemption isn't even a CCG now, it's clearly a LCG. It's time we got back to Redemption roots.
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2) Showcase the cards on the website. There are no pictures of actual cards on the website, which is strange.
This is actually false. There are pictures of cards in the expansions tab for sets released before RoA under "View Sample Cards". Granted, it's not that hard to miss and it doesn't show a lot of cards, but they have actual card pictures there. They used to be less hidden, but that was before RoA I think.
I agree with your other ideas, especially the boosters. It's much more affordable to buy 1 new booster pack to try to get a card you need than to buy a tin for $15 just to get the 10 new cards in it, especially for those of us (most of the veteran players) that have all the cards that come in the accompanying packs in multiples.
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The solution to the cost problem as far as boosters go is make a booster set, but with the size of something like TeP or Return of the tins. It gives you boosters with every card being viable.
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I agree, boosters do not have to be super huge. 2 of the big 3 mainstream CCG's out there have booster expansions very similar in size to what we already have for current Redemption expansions.
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7. Booster packs have always been fun to rip, if not only further perpetuated by the above point. Redemption isn't even a CCG now, it's clearly a LCG. It's time we got back to Redemption roots.
I fully agree currently Redemption is a pseudo LCG and its imo not really working.
I was hoping someone higher up then me could say this since it would have some more credibility to it but what ever.
The reason we dont do boosters any more is solely because of cost. When you make a "non booster" set all that happens after the cards are cut and print they are shipped over to Rob and he sorts and packages the cards himself. With a "booster" set on top of the standard cost of making a 100+ card sized set (which includes having more sheets of cards printed common, uncommon and rare/ultra/promo sheet).... The cards also need to be sorted + packaged in foil wrappers + packaged in boxes + packed in boxes with boxes ect ect. There is just more stuff happening that jacks up the price enough that Rob doesnt have the funds to produce another full sized booster set.
So even if you make it a smaller set there is still so much added cost that it would have been more profitable to do something like Tins or Texp syle packs hence the reason we have been getting Tins, Texp syle and now Starters for the past 6(?) years.
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CCGs are dependent on having a viable brick-and-mortar retail channel. Redemption's traditional retail partners--independent Christian bookstores--are drying up. New booster sets and marketing are pretty much beside the point, unless they allow Redemption to either get into the mass market retailers (Pokemon, Yu-Go-Oh!) or the traditional game stores (MtG, L5R).
7. Booster packs have always been fun to rip, if not only further perpetuated by the above point. Redemption isn't even a CCG now, it's clearly a LCG. It's time we got back to Redemption roots.
I fully agree currently Redemption is a pseudo LCG and its imo not really working.
I would argue that the problem lies more in the "pseudo" part than in the "LCG" piece. Given the current state of the retail market and the target audience of Redemption, going down a pure LCG route seems like a natural fit.
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On a semi-related note (I agree with basically all your points), I'd like to see a promo video. It's really tough to spark kids interest by just talking and maybe showing a slideshow of some cards. Having a high energy promo would be a great way to get kids and teens excited for when game nights happen.
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Redemption's traditional retail partners--independent Christian bookstores--are drying up.
This is indeed a major part of the issue. Unfortunately Christian Bookstores have such a large markup that there is no incentive for ordinary people to shop there. Most of the smaller chains have already closed down. I think that this is a point that Rob needs to dwell on, since Christian Stores are still selling Cactus Board Games well (apparently), but they are no longer suited to sell Redemption.
New booster sets and marketing are pretty much beside the point, unless they allow Redemption to either get into the mass market retailers (Pokemon, Yu-Go-Oh!) or the traditional game stores (MtG, L5R).
I agree with this as well. Target has traditionally sold Christian items, and Wal-Mart will sell anything that is made in China, so I'm not sure why there is hesitation on this front. The viewership would grow exponentially if just these two (or either one) sold Redemption.
Additionally, I would like to see Redemption promo cards in my kids' meals at Chick-fil-A. My local Chick-fil-A's are very receptive to marketing Christian events. My wife holds her VeggieTales Previews at them (since she is an official ambassador, so we get prereleases of the movies), and they have already approved the idea of a Redemption tournament.
As an aside, someone will have to explain the whole TCG, CCG, and LCG distinctions. As an online mathematics educator, I am inundated with acronyms. :o
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As an aside, someone will have to explain the whole TCG, CCG, and LCG distinctions. As an online mathematics educator, I am inundated with acronyms. :o
I was ignorant too as to what LCG means. Google turned up a good explanation for me at Fantasy Flight Games.
A Living Card Game® (LCG®) offers an innovative fixed distribution method that breaks away from the traditional Collectible Card Game model. While LCGs still offer the same dynamic, expanding, and constantly evolving game play that makes CCG’s so much fun, they do away with the deterrent of the blind-buy purchase model that has burned out so many players. The end result is an innovative mix that gives you the best of both worlds!
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That's a good definition for LCG (which I would definitely consider Redemption leaning towards with the Tin sets), and that's what separates it from TCG/CCG. I honestly have trouble distinguishing TCG from CCG, though.
I did some searching and it seems that TCG and CCG are largely synonymous (being used in marketing to separate one product from another, despite being the same type of product). LCG is really the only different one, and that's solely because of the distribution method (as mentioned in Gabe's quote).
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It seems like these ideas are kind of chronological. If we had more internet marketing, better packaging, and more mainstream designs, we'd have more people playing. Then we could probably afford booster packs.
These are all excellent ideas.
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i think the main reason why redemption is "failing" is cause nobody posts videos and advertise it on youtube, though i could post ads and have podcasts for it but i hardly have the time and the encouragement anymore to do so cause my sub count is so low and ive been a youtuber since 06
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Regarding the internet marketing, I have tried a number of different avenues and have not found any worth their cost. I've spent thousands of dollars over the last 5 years on marketing and have only seen a few new people order from Three Lions Gaming. Only one or two was actually new to Redemption. If Redemption could get into WalMart or Target, that would definitely make a big change in the popularity of the game! Anyone know how to go about trying to get it in?
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Regarding the internet marketing, I have tried a number of different avenues and have not found any worth their cost. I've spent thousands of dollars over the last 5 years on marketing and have only seen a few new people order from Three Lions Gaming. Only one or two was actually new to Redemption. If Redemption could get into WalMart or Target, that would definitely make a big change in the popularity of the game! Anyone know how to go about trying to get it in?
sign a contract to walmart and target to get the game in the card game section with yugioh and mtg
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I was wondering if anyone knew the process to suggest something to either store or had a contact that may be able to help with this...
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Regarding the internet marketing, I have tried a number of different avenues and have not found any worth their cost. I've spent thousands of dollars over the last 5 years on marketing and have only seen a few new people order from Three Lions Gaming. Only one or two was actually new to Redemption. If Redemption could get into WalMart or Target, that would definitely make a big change in the popularity of the game! Anyone know how to go about trying to get it in?
sign a contract to walmart and target to get the game in the card game section with yugioh and mtg
That's not his decision to make
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I was wondering if anyone knew the process to suggest something to either store or had a contact that may be able to help with this...
As a retailer, I'm not sure there's much you can do. Rob would probably have to be the one to make that call, and I'm sure you have to go through corporate.
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No doubt Rob would have to do that at the corporate level. Every single inch of display space in Wal-Mart and Target is predesigned at the corporate level. Stores are not allowed to improvise, except in specially designated areas (like seasonal or clearance).
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I doubt Redemption has a chance in the TCG aisle at Walmart, however I don't see why it couldn't be in the Christian book section of Walmart.
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Regarding the internet marketing, I have tried a number of different avenues and have not found any worth their cost. I've spent thousands of dollars over the last 5 years on marketing and have only seen a few new people order from Three Lions Gaming. Only one or two was actually new to Redemption. If Redemption could get into WalMart or Target, that would definitely make a big change in the popularity of the game! Anyone know how to go about trying to get it in?
Redemption needs to take advantage of the many free marketing strategies like having an active twitter, facebook, youtube and website. In the future when redemption gets more popular from those basic platforms, then it can start spending money on real marketing.
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Having a website is not free, but they are already paying for it.
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Daniel, if you have suggestions for how I can improve the Three Lions Gaming website, Facebook page, and Twitter account, please feel free to let me know via PM or email to Ken@ThreeLionsGaming.com.
Thanks!
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i think the main reason why redemption is "failing" is cause nobody posts videos and advertise it on youtube, though i could post ads and have podcasts for it but i hardly have the time and the encouragement anymore to do so cause my sub count is so low and ive been a youtuber since 06
Advertising on YouTube through a channel really won't work. People visit channels that they connect with, and Redemption is nowhere near big enough to get put in the "featured" section on even The Top Cut (Pokemon TCG's largest YouTube channel at 7000+ subscribers).
We need a way to easily introduce people to the game before we start mass marketing. People may be like "Oh, that looks cool" and then start looking into it and realize they can't figure it out. We need an easy process.
1. Potential player discovers the game (i.e. selling through Walmart or other marketing, currently only done through word of mouth)
2. Potential player is interested in the game (this is the difficulty...Daniel's ideas are a good place to start)
3. Interested player goes to RedemptionTCG.com, where they find things to get them further intrigued, as well as a "How to Play" section so they can buy a starter deck, go home, and start playing day 1 without any outside teaching or trying to figure it out for themselves. Rulebooks are never fun to read and often times can create further confusion.
I agree with Daniel in that I'm sure I/J will be a top notch starter, but I think the ease of reading the rulebook also needs to be addressed.
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i think the main reason why redemption is "failing" is cause nobody posts videos and advertise it on youtube, though i could post ads and have podcasts for it but i hardly have the time and the encouragement anymore to do so cause my sub count is so low and ive been a youtuber since 06
Advertising on YouTube through a channel really won't work. People visit channels that they connect with, and Redemption is nowhere near big enough to get put in the "featured" section on even The Top Cut (Pokemon TCG's largest YouTube channel at 7000+ subscribers).
We need a way to easily introduce people to the game before we start mass marketing. People may be like "Oh, that looks cool" and then start looking into it and realize they can't figure it out. We need an easy process.
1. Potential player discovers the game (i.e. selling through Walmart or other marketing, currently only done through word of mouth)
2. Potential player is interested in the game (this is the difficulty...Daniel's ideas are a good place to start)
3. Interested player goes to RedemptionTCG.com, where they find things to get them further intrigued, as well as a "How to Play" section so they can buy a starter deck, go home, and start playing day 1 without any outside teaching or trying to figure it out for themselves. Rulebooks are never fun to read and often times can create further confusion.
I agree with Daniel in that I'm sure I/J will be a top notch starter, but I think the ease of reading the rulebook also needs to be addressed.
That was another thing I meant to mention: the rulebook. Both Yugioh and MTG have simple beginners rulebook a that come with introductory packs and are very easy to understand. I remember the first starter deck I bought when I was 8, and neither me or my dad could grasp the rules very well. The game is essentially very simple and there's no need for a new player to be bombarded with game situations and terms and everything right off the bat.
Having a website is not free, but they are already paying for it.
Yeah, they are very cheap.
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Sure websites are cheap if you want it to look cheap, which completely voids the purpose.
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There are tons of good ideas being shared in this thread. I'm encouraged by the fact that so many of you care enough to share these ideas!
I agree with Daniel in that I'm sure I/J will be a top notch starter, but I think the ease of reading the rulebook also needs to be addressed.
I was given the new rulebook to proof last weekend and I can tell you it has been simplified. Still, a rulebook isn't an exciting read, although it's a great reference tool.
Rob and I have spoken about putting together a video tutorial for the new starters after they are released. A plan is in place. Video takes time to do well though so don't expect them right away.
I'm 100% on board with getting Redemption into major stores like Target and Walmart. I asked Rob about this a few years ago. At the time I was suggesting that he attempt to get Redemption into larger stores. Even if he can't get into the ones previously mentioned, it seems like he would have a decent chance with stores like Hobby Lobby that are run based on Christian values. Here are some challenges he was up against at that time:
- There is a great deal of competition from secular games.
- Redemption is about 15 years old. Secular stores feel they should move on and are looking for new games.
I know that more recently Rob said somewhere on these boards that Redemption is 10% or less of his companies profit. If he let it, it would take up 90% of his time. Obviously that's not a sustainable business model. But it seems, from an outside perspective, that investing in some of these ideas could pay off by increasing the profit for Redemption. Last I knew, Cactus Games is a family run business with Rob being the only full time employee.
That helps explain why things like a website, facebook and twitter are not being used to their full potential. Even though they are "free" from a financial perspective there is a large cost involved - time. I imagine for these to be done well and kept up to date would require fan intervention. For example, Redemption has a facebook page. I imagine almost everyone on this forum is also on facebook (I am not). How hard would it be for any of you to post something encouraging you've learned about the Bible or a spiritual truth God led you towards because of Redemption? Or a picture from your last playgroup gathering?
Keep the ideas coming. Who know, Rob might read some of these and be inspired. The video idea I mentioned above was direct fruit of a suggestion from someone on these boards. ;)
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I suggest we create a fan-run committee that popularizes the facebook page.
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Thanks for the insight, Gabe! I am happy to do more with online marketing like Facebook and Twitter if it's worth my time, but I am not social media savvy, so I'm open to suggestions on that from anyone. :) Your point about Redemption being 10% of Cactus' profit is important for us to consider, and it was about when Rob made that announcement that I started doing more with social media to try to increase awareness of Redemption.
Glad to hear about the simplified rule book!
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If anyone is interested, I took the liberty of creating a Twitter page (https://twitter.com/CCGRedemption) just now. If Rob or one of the Elders wants to take control of this (or otherwise wants me to shut it down for whatever reason), send me a message. I'll be working in the next couple days to make it look better, hopefully get permission from Rob to use the logo, etc.
On the subject of secular stores, I think it's important to note that there's already a small-but-dedicated core fanbase, that can easily gain support given the right push. One possibility is to try and get Redemption into one specific Walmart where there's already a strong playgroup, and hopefully that playgroup will give it enough popularity to help make a case that it should be put into other stores.
Gabe, is there any chance of Daniel's ideas being implemented into the new set, or is too late for that at this point?
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Can specific walmarts make decisions on what to carry though?
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Can specific walmarts make decisions on what to carry though?
No, but the corporate office can make the decision that a specific Walmart will carry a specific product. If Rob can successfully convince the corporate office to give Redemption a test run in a city that already has a strong play group presence, then that might be the in he needs.
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Gabe, is there any chance of Daniel's ideas being implemented into the new set, or is too late for that at this point?
The rulebook and packaging are already finished except for some minor corrections. Over half of the cards are done already too. It's not that things couldn't be re-done, it's that Rob would need to buy into the idea that it needed to be re-done.
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I'll be totally honest. I feel a redesign of the cards would be a mistake at this point. It would be such a drastic visual change that people may think it's a completely different product, or not realize that it's still Redemption.
The only visual change I'd agree with is moving the special abilities off the images, but even that isn't really required at this point.
I do however, agree that this game needs better exposure.
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If you need Social Media advice, please see my wife. She just transferred her blog to her own website:
http://love2encourageyou.com (http://love2encourageyou.com)
She is willing to create a page on her drop-down navigation menu just for Redemption to get things started. She has 13,400 Facebook followers, 7500 on Twitter, and 1500 on Pinterest. Her internet stats are at the top under "PR Friendly." She was a PR2 blogger just before her website transfer.
Running a website definitely costs money and time, if you want it to draw a crowd.
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•Redemption is about 15 years old. Secular stores feel they should move on and are looking for new games.
The awesome artwork and redesign I've seen lately on these boards is a great place to start with showing the game in a new way.
I like YMT idea's about Chik-fil-A.
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I'll be totally honest. I feel a redesign of the cards would be a mistake at this point. It would be such a drastic visual change that people may think it's a completely different product, or not realize that it's still Redemption.
Uh, why would a template redesign make the people that already play think it's not Redemption? :o
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The hardcore crowd would still recognize it, but more casual players who don't frequent the forums / other redemption websites may be confused.
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I'll be totally honest. I feel a redesign of the cards would be a mistake at this point. It would be such a drastic visual change that people may think it's a completely different product, or not realize that it's still Redemption.
Uh, why would a template redesign make the people that already play think it's not Redemption? :o
Agreed.
About the only downside I see is for deck-checkers.
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If we still use the back of the cards the same (which we would have to for tournament purposes anyway) I don't think anybody would be confused.
"These cards look weird, is this still Redemption?"
"I don't know, check the back"
*GIANT SWORD AND LOGO*
"Huh, guess so."
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I'd like to volunteer to become an admin of the facebook page. It doesn't make sense to start a new one with 300 likes already, but I would be good at frequently updating whenever a big ruling decision is made or whenever there are tournaments coming up. I spend enough time on Facebook already, might as well make it somewhat productive.
I don't think a redesign is necessary, but I would like to get words off the art. The sleek design does just fine. It also could be cool to have ultra rares or other cards that you know will be valuable (like Mayhem and Grapes) Full-Art/borderless.
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A redesign might not be entirely necessary, but if it's going to have any benefit at all, why not?
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Because it's weird to have two totally different looking cards side by side in the same deck. Set rotation can smooth this over, only allowing for reprints, but Redemption can't really do set rotation.
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Because it's weird to have two totally different looking cards side by side in the same deck. Set rotation can smooth this over, only allowing for reprints, but Redemption can't really do set rotation.
I've used Gabe-made full-art cards in for-fun decks before and it's not really that weird to see them mixed in with the other cards.
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Full-art/borderless is fine, and having played Pokemon which utilizes both, I agree. Having classic side by side with the redesign would be kinda off, IMO.
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FA is just a joke way to make cards worth more on the secondary market. #Isaidit #SorrynotSorry
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FA is just a joke way to make cards worth more on the secondary market. #Isaidit #SorrynotSorry
#FoReal
A redesign of some form would vastly benefit. Just include the line- Compatible with all prior Redemption game cards, on the back of the packaging for the first threeish sets.
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How expensive are Starter Decks to manufacture in comparison with booster expansions?
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FA is just a joke way to make cards worth more on the secondary market.
This has never been a bad thing with CCGs. Again, Redemption desperately needs that boost within its playerbase where players are compelled to continue buying packs for that hard to find ultra or variant. It keeps players engaged while also boosting the value of the secondary market. Its a win-win for both sides.
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How expensive are Starter Decks to manufacture in comparison with booster expansions?
Similar to the Tins/Texp style sets. Rob is shipped cut stacks of cards, boxes and rule books. Later he packages them himself (or least thats how I understand it works).
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Double post O:
In regards to the current direction Redemption is going I think we can admit the game is at a low point, there just arent that many people playing the game. With the release of the new starter deck the game can go a few directions. Ill just list some observations based on other ccg/tcg/tmg/cmg games in the past.
1. Continue the same path the game is going. Release the starter. Possible redesign of cards. Continue to do tins/texp sets maybe get a booster set if we are lucky. My theory is the game will die out in maybe 5 or 6 years. This is the easiest thing to do from a producer stand point. Cause of death is sometimes games get too big for their own good and the small expansions cannot support the growing game TMGs/CMGs in particular are notorious for this.
Previous games that have done this and died within a similar time frame when game hit a low point.... VS TCG, Middle Earth CCG, Star Wars CCG, Star Wars CMG, Axis and Allies (various versions) CMG, Pirates of the Spanish Main CMG, 7th Sea, War Hammer TCG, Buffy TCG, Netrunner CCG, Shadowrun CCG, Lord of the Rings Hex Combat TMG ect.
2. I call this the Decipher option. Keep ALL the basic mechanics of the game but "redesign it" basically make a 2.0 version of the game. All the new cards are compatible with past sets but new cards are more simple ect. basically you make a new base set and start over. This can either revive a game or kill it as shown by Decipher. Rather risky from a producer standpoint since old stock is no longer valid but for players the old stock is still fine for playing casual games so its not all bad.
Games the "2.0" redesign has worked for... Star Trek 2.0 CCG, Legend of the Five Rings TCG, Hero Clix, ect. (you can also include Pokemon in this example but meh). Games it DID NOT work for... Lord of the Rings TCG, Game of Thrones TCG, Wars TCG (reboot of Star Wars TCG), Mage Knight 2.0 TMG, really any game by Decipher, ect.
3. I call this the Fantasy Flight Games approach aka the LCG. The LCG has the biggest possible win/loss ratio in that it can be SUPER profitable or the game can tank and your dead. What a LCG does is revive a old property by using all the same mechanics from previous game but redesigning the cards and making a new base set. From there 60 card AP packs are release periodically with "deluxe" 120 card packs released bi annually. The LCG format has been wildly successful since it makes it practical to play some pretty awesome ccg's for cheap prices. The downside ALL previous product is worthless (literally) which means Rob and players will have product you can barley even give away. But you can revive a great game from the dead so it can be worth a shot.
Games that have been revived via LCG or LCG lite format... Game of Thrones LCG, Netrunner LCG, Cthulhu LCG, Hero Clix, Wings of Glory WW1, Wings of Glory WW2, ect.
I personally think we need to risk number 2. The game has just gotten too big. The game needs to be downsized and redesigned to make it more accessible with the starter decks we are already half way there.
Ill update this post if I get any more ideas/things to add.
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A redesign of packaging and website update would be perfect.
I don't think Redemption will ever die. A CCG based on the number one most read book in the world? Far from dying!
Implement a "Recruiting System." 3 to 1...each current Redemption player recruits 3 people each and teaches them to play. Like a tutor or mentor.
MTG just got bigger. They went from printing 3 sets a year to 4 sets. (They did that a few years ago) in addition to side sets (vs.) of reprinted cards every 4 months.
Implement foil promo cards. (Alternate art foils of 2 new set cards on pre-release and release date tourneys) Reprint promos in foil?
Implement 3 new foil promos or reprint foils for participating in Root scheduled games.
Example: Player reward program throughout a year play 50 games get a card. Play 75 games get a better card. Play 100 games get an even better card.
God is behind this game!! There is no going back. Only a bright future is ahead of us!
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I don't think Redemption will ever die. A CCG based on the number one most read book in the world? Far from dying!
Is this sarcasm?
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I don't think Redemption will ever die. A CCG based on the number one most read book in the world? Far from dying!
Is this sarcasm?
Why do you think it would be?? :o I'm being serious!
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Because:
I don't think Redemption will ever die because it has the living and breathing word of God on it.
KingLeo 8)
So did The Mission, SoulQuest, Bible TCG, Bible Battles and Timestream
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Because:
I don't think Redemption will ever die because it has the living and breathing word of God on it.
KingLeo 8)
So did The Mission, SoulQuest, Bible TCG, Bible Battles and Timestream
Didn't see that. Just expressing my own opinion. Sorry for thinking out loud.
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Double post O:
Approved. ;)
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Because:
I don't think Redemption will ever die because it has the living and breathing word of God on it.
KingLeo 8)
So did The Mission, SoulQuest, Bible TCG, Bible Battles and Timestream
Didn't see that. Just expressing my own opinion. Sorry for thinking out loud.
MKC is not known for his optimism. ::)
I personally don't believe the game will die unless Rob lets it. The nature of that is in his hands alone at this point. He has expressed and interest in keeping it alive. Making money is certainly a good incentive to keep the game alive. There are things we can do to help that. This has been a really good discussion, full of ideas that could help.
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+1 about the good discussion part!
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Redemption has an extremely loyal fanbase, so I think it would take a little more than expansions ceasing to kill off the game.
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MKC is not known for his optimism. ::)
Haha yeah, I'm usually the fall guy for being a pessimist (or realist as I put it), but I honestly wasn't trying to be negative. Only pointing out that CCGs based on the Bible thus far are not indicative towards its market survivability.
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Redemption has an extremely loyal fanbase, so I think it would take a little more than expansions ceasing to kill off the game.
Let me point out that when myself and other players talk about a game being dead it means from a commercial standpoint the game has ceased production and has no hope of being revived by the original company.
Many games that are "dead" are still alive and have thriving communities. For example... Star Wars CCG, Star Trek CCG, Lord of the Rings TCG, Middle Earth CCG, Netrunner CCG and a few others are still alive and kicking. Many dead games are still active under the leadership of PC's (Player Communities) with new official "digital" sets being produced and tournaments being run. But officially the game for all practical purposes is dead.
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Redemption has an extremely loyal fanbase, so I think it would take a little more than expansions ceasing to kill off the game.
Let me point out that when myself and other players talk about a game being dead it means from a commercial standpoint the game has ceased production and has no hope of being revived by the original company.
Agree, this is what most people mean by dead. Also want to point out some games die out but get picked up again by other companies (Universal Fighting System went through Sabertooth Games, Fantasy Flight Games, and the now current Jasco Games.)
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im conserned for the game and whatever i can do to help the game grow, i'll do it, this game needs to survive for the sake of people hearing God's word
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Many games that are "dead" are still alive and have thriving communities. For example... Star Wars CCG, Star Trek CCG, Lord of the Rings TCG, Middle Earth CCG, Netrunner CCG and a few others are still alive and kicking. Many dead games are still active under the leadership of PC's (Player Communities) with new official "digital" sets being produced and tournaments being run. But officially the game for all practical purposes is dead.
FWIW, there are commercial reboots of a number of these games (LotR, NetRunner, etc.). As far as I know these are all being released as LCGs.
As far as a large commercial retailer such as WalMart goes, I wonder how much product Cactus would need to guarantee to get placement in those stores.
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FWIW, there are commercial reboots of a number of these games (LotR, NetRunner, etc.). As far as I know these are all being released as LCGs.
Not that it matters but the Lord of the Rings LCG is not a reboot of either the Lord of the Rings TCG by Decipher or Middle Earth CCG by ICE it is a new game created by FFG (the Star Wars LCG is a new game too not a reboot). NetRunner CCG by Wizards of the Coast still has a separate following due to a number of things altered to make it more accessible as a LCG. The only card game reboots produced by FFG so far that are LCG's are Android NetRunner LCG, The Game of Thrones LCG and the Cthulhu LCG.
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FWIW, there are commercial reboots of a number of these games (LotR, NetRunner, etc.). As far as I know these are all being released as LCGs.
Not that it matters but the Lord of the Rings LCG is not a reboot of either the Lord of the Rings TCG by Decipher or Middle Earth CCG by ICE it is a new game created by FFG (the Star Wars LCG is a new game too not a reboot). NetRunner CCG by Wizards of the Coast still has a separate following due to a number of things altered to make it more accessible as a LCG. The only card game reboots produced by FFG so far that are LCG's are Android NetRunner LCG, The Game of Thrones LCG and the Cthulhu LCG.
I think Game of Thrones and Call of Cthulu were both brought out as LCGs from the beginning so they really aren't reboots either. So I am more wrong than even you thought. :( What I meant to say was that recently Fantasy Flight has brought out new LCG games based in the same universe of CCGs that have previously failed commercially.
I think there would be a number of advantages if Cactus moved to a similar type of distribution model for Redemption.* In particular having a starter edition that included multiple (mix and match) decks would possibly have been more enticing to newer players. Moreover by pitching it as a complete standalone experience, Cactus may have been able to get t placed into more mainstream game stores.
*On the other hand, I can't think of any examples where a CCG transitioned to an LCG mid-stream, so it may not be viable.
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What if Redemption at some point partnered with The Action Bible or The Book of Revelation graphic novels to release an expansion set? The Action Bible and Book of Revelation is sold at Walmart, so maybe a Action Bible set could be sold there too?
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heartsandmindsbooks.com%2Frev.jpg&hash=248db825eabd90c8b1fb8a78b8895a77905a2c28)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2Fs720x720%2F30347_372355292852191_95470668_n.jpg&hash=611b383b90079142be674faacb101d4f5e93ebc1)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.challies.com%2Fsites%2Fall%2Ffiles%2Fattachments%2Frevelationapp-01.jpg&hash=65d9d5b34cc01c58a58930aef0f9d79d91179c19)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wheatonbible.org%2FContent%2F10713%2FFamily%2FActionbible.jpg&hash=d6bb2da77bb5114319e15ff0d866f3351fcc45e6)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidccook.com%2FAdRotator%2Fimages%2FAction-Bible.jpg&hash=868f63a36153aa923ce8f9652e981fe0b83c8659)
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i got the action bible and i read it already from genesis to revelation in a matter of days cause once you start reading it, your NOT gonna wanna put it down
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i got the action bible and i read it already from genesis to revelation in a matter of days cause once you start reading it, your NOT gonna wanna put it down
Book of Revelation is even better. Some of the best graphic novel art I've ever seen, and that says a lot.
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i got the action bible and i read it already from genesis to revelation in a matter of days cause once you start reading it, your NOT gonna wanna put it down
Book of Revelation is even better. Some of the best graphic novel art I've ever seen, and that says a lot.
the action bible is directed towards some of the younger readers like around 12 or so but it's still a good read, and im fully intending on reading it through AGAIN cause its awesome
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At the people saying the game is too big,
That's ludicrous. A given magic STANDARD format, has as many cards as all of our sets or extremely close to it.
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At the people saying the game is too big,
That's ludicrous. A given magic STANDARD format, has as many cards as all of our sets or extremely close to it.
Uh, has anyone in this thread said that?
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GIANT POST
I think Game of Thrones and Call of Cthulu were both brought out as LCGs from the beginning so they really aren't reboots either. So I am more wrong than even you thought. :( What I meant to say was that recently Fantasy Flight has brought out new LCG games based in the same universe of CCGs that have previously failed commercially.
I think there would be a number of advantages if Cactus moved to a similar type of distribution model for Redemption.* In particular having a starter edition that included multiple (mix and match) decks would possibly have been more enticing to newer players. Moreover by pitching it as a complete standalone experience, Cactus may have been able to get t placed into more mainstream game stores.
*On the other hand, I can't think of any examples where a CCG transitioned to an LCG mid-stream, so it may not be viable.
Hey EmJayBee83 just to tell you im not trying to be a no it all but you really need check your info before you start posting stuff you "think" is right. Both Game of Thrones and Cthulhu were CCG's before they became LCG's how do I know? I played both of them in their CCG form and now play them in their LCG form :P
And yes you are correct no games have been changed to LCG mid-stream because like I said that would render all your previous product void. But many games have been rebooted in a 2.0 format mid life.
At the people saying the game is too big,
That's ludicrous. A given magic STANDARD format, has as many cards as all of our sets or extremely close to it.
Uh, has anyone in this thread said that?
I did. Now let me get this straight.... when I say a game is too big I dont necessarily mean the game has too big of a card pool, what I mean is the game is too big from the standpoint that the size/frequency of the expansions can no longer support the growth/improvement of the game.
Many games have gotten "too big" from this standpoint TMG's/CMG's in particular. When a game has a bagillion themes and only can release at most a few hundred figures/cards per year the game eventually gets stagnant from lack of new ideas. Any one who played VS can tell you this as most themes were abandoned after 1-2 sets but the card pool for this game was GIANT by the time it died.
There are ways to stop a game from no longer being able to support itself by the definition I gave.
1. You can make "blocks" aka what Wizards of the Coast and pretty much every company does. Only problem with blocks is this requires a constant production of cards which obviously out paces Redemptions production.
2. Restart the game aka what Decipher, Hero Clix and Legend of the Five Rings have done. When a game gets too big you release a 2.0 version of the game and go from there. You start off with a clean slate and hope you dont make any stupid mistakes the second time around (cough TGT or Mayhem cough).
*For more info look at my previous giant post look at number 2
3. The game is too big to fail aka what games that are about to die do. This is the Wizkids, Wizards of the Cost (when not making Magic), ICE, VS and some other companies do. You keep producing sets until you decide to no longer make the game but you will notice the sets get smaller and smaller till no more are produced.
*For more info look at my previous giant post look at number 1
There comes to a certain point in a games life were it NEEDS to be rebooted other wise the game will eventually sizzle out. Any one ever played the Call of Duty video game series? Recent movie example The Hobbit (really three movies guys?) ect. CCGs/TMGs and friends go the same route eventually you lose the ability to make new interesting materiel people lose interest in the game and eventually the franchise dies.
Oh and Red comparing the Redemption card pool to the Magic card pool is like comparing a bird bath to the freaking pacific ocean or a comic book to War and Peace. They may be in the same medium but they are in completely different classes.
Btw guys I do apologize for my GIANT ramblings but I do really enjoy the medium and have alot of experience playing other games hence the massive rambling.
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Can we just have a couple cards different or something? They don't have to be a full set, there just has to be SOMETHING visually appealing. Every single guy in my dorm building buys Pokemon packs until they get a "full art."
Look, I think the whole "don't increase collector difficulty and make it easy for everyone to have a good deck" is preventing the game from increasing. As someone who doesn't have a LOT of money, I can say it's appreciate. But come on. It's a card game. And it has to have sales. There should be REALLY rare cards. And people will buy packs to get them. And they should be REALLY good. And they should help your deck. It's not bad to have good cards that are hard to get. It will help sell. And they should look awesome, maybe full art, extra shiny gold border, I don't care. Make them rare, make them cool looking, and make them original. That will help sales, I guarantee you. Great, you can spend $50 and get the whole new set. That's PROBABLY a pretty good reason the game doesn't sell as much anymore. Am I right?
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Can we just have a couple cards different or something? They don't have to be a full set, there just has to be SOMETHING visually appealing. Every single guy in my dorm building buys Pokemon packs until they get a "full art."
Look, I think the whole "don't increase collector difficulty and make it easy for everyone to have a good deck" is preventing the game from increasing. As someone who doesn't have a LOT of money, I can say it's appreciate. But come on. It's a card game. And it has to have sales. There should be REALLY rare cards. And people will buy packs to get them. And they should be REALLY good. And they should help your deck. It's not bad to have good cards that are hard to get. It will help sell. And they should look awesome, maybe full art, extra shiny gold border, I don't care. Make them rare, make them cool looking, and make them original. That will help sales, I guarantee you. Great, you can spend $50 and get the whole new set. That's PROBABLY a pretty good reason the game doesn't sell as much anymore. Am I right?
This is it, really. What if there was a way to combine the aspects of an LCG and a CCG? What if instead of a large pack that sold ALL the cards, there was a large pack that sold ALL the commons, along with some of the rares and a few ultra-rares, leaving about 50 cards that aren't included in the pack. That way you would have to buy 3 or 4 to get most of all the cards in the set. Is there a flaw with that? It's basically a large tin with a random factor. Simple cardboard boxes are pretty cheap to manufacture, am I right?
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That's essentially what Decipher did with Fight Klub.
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That's essentially what Decipher did with Fight Klub.
We don't talk about that here.
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Essentially what Rob Anderson would like to see is NUMBERS! LOTS and LOTS of numbers. Meaning? More people playing, being introduced, etc. 2013 should be the year of recruiting.
Nuff said.
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That's essentially what Decipher did with Fight Klub.
Fight Klub tanked literally right out of the gate game didnt last past 3 sets.
Fight Klub tanked for a few reasons. Decipher marketed the game HORRIBLY like BAD many people didnt know about the game till it had kicked the bucket. The other reason was the "kilo" (its what Decipher called those horrendous box things) was a good idea in concept but a horrible idea in practice because it still took like 4 or 5 "kilos" (each costing like $50+ $30 a pop) to get a complete set! It had one of the advantages of a LCG and all of the disadvantages of both.
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To expand on the distribution method of Fight Klub, they had a 120 count pack of cards called a 'Kilo' that was sold for $30. It contained 10 random rare cards, one copy of every uncommon card, and 2 copies of every common card. An expansion set consisted of 30 rare, 30 uncommon, and 40 common cards. So if you wanted all of the rare cards, you had to buy multiple Kilos. A perfect distribution would mean a complete set for under $100, but this wasn't always the case of course. In addition, for every 3 Kilos that a person bought, they would receive an 11 card special edition pack that would contain unique cards you could only get from that pack.
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hey sorry to be a little late to this thread but i am seeing some great ideas... Going off the whole MTG route. What if Cactus Games started a campaign kind of like FNM for magic. It could be called something like Sunday Morning Redemption. I was thinking like it would be more targeted for church youth groups to get a larger # of younger people involved, but any church group could work I guess. It would be a way to get more churches involved and participating. The churches could also use it as an outreach. Sure there would have to be some time spent making certain rules and regulations for it, but I think it would help market the product. Just an idea...
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hey sorry to be a little late to this thread but i am seeing some great ideas... Going off the whole MTG route. What if Cactus Games started a campaign kind of like FNM for magic. It could be called something like Sunday Morning Redemption. I was thinking like it would be more targeted for church youth groups to get a larger # of younger people involved, but any church group could work I guess. It would be a way to get more churches involved and participating. The churches could also use it as an outreach. Sure there would have to be some time spent making certain rules and regulations for it, but I think it would help market the product. Just an idea...
now thats an idea!
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hey sorry to be a little late to this thread but i am seeing some great ideas... Going off the whole MTG route. What if Cactus Games started a campaign kind of like FNM for magic. It could be called something like Sunday Morning Redemption. I was thinking like it would be more targeted for church youth groups to get a larger # of younger people involved, but any church group could work I guess. It would be a way to get more churches involved and participating. The churches could also use it as an outreach. Sure there would have to be some time spent making certain rules and regulations for it, but I think it would help market the product. Just an idea...
My church back at home does Redemption game nights and tournaments once a month, plus some side stuff (like Booster Draft). They still get less than 10 kids generally (and we're a 2000+ person church).
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hey sorry to be a little late to this thread but i am seeing some great ideas... Going off the whole MTG route. What if Cactus Games started a campaign kind of like FNM for magic. It could be called something like Sunday Morning Redemption. I was thinking like it would be more targeted for church youth groups to get a larger # of younger people involved, but any church group could work I guess. It would be a way to get more churches involved and participating. The churches could also use it as an outreach. Sure there would have to be some time spent making certain rules and regulations for it, but I think it would help market the product. Just an idea...
My church back at home does Redemption game nights and tournaments once a month, plus some side stuff (like Booster Draft). They still get less than 10 kids generally (and we're a 2000+ person church).
too bad the same cant be said for tennessee other then knoxville
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My church back at home does Redemption game nights and tournaments once a month, plus some side stuff (like Booster Draft). They still get less than 10 kids generally (and we're a 2000+ person church).
Churches that are willing to host Redemption are great, but I do not think that should be the target for advertising. Many churches repel Redemption because they disagree with some aspect of the game - the card art, presence of demons, CCGs in general, etc.
I have found that Christian schools are a better market, with less resistance. They are usually looking for more after-school clubs and extracurricular activities for their students, especially students who do not play sports. When I was teaching at a Christian school in Connecticut, I was averaging 20 kids per week in my Redemption Club, for a school that was 700 total for K-12.
With budget cuts hitting every public school district, extracurricular activities are declining even for non-Christian schools. With modern "equality" agendas, public schools are not as resistant to having a Redemption Club, as long as it is intiated by students.
I think that if we are going to make changes to the marketing scheme, we need to choose our fights carefully. I understand the inherent push to get Redemption into traditional secular gaming stores, but that is not generally where you are going to get parents to bring their young children. However, they can certainly go to Wal-Mart to get a few booster packs while they are doing their grocery shopping. Redemption has such a wide appeal in age ranges, so the marketing is still dependent on us, since Rob cannot do it alone. People like me know how to appeal to the younger crowd. Many of you know how to appeal to the young adult gamer crowd. And, of course, there are bunch of us old-timers that still enjoy the game. We just spend more of our time hosting than playing. Since Minnesota has the T2-Only Tournament, I think Florida will have to start the Over-40-Only Tournament. ;)
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg441.imageshack.us%2Fimg441%2F1162%2Ffinalmission.png&hash=e3e8cb319a9bf36ad8103cecdf71a6a237de8245)
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At least relaunch the game with the blue and silver logo. That logo is tasty.
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I'm still a fan of the red. It pops out more. The silver is really cool though.
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Everything Daniel touches is gold. That is a beautiful display.
Another thing preventing Redemption from selling a bunch is that normal type I, which is the largest category, only has 1 available card per deck. Compare that to Yugioh and Pokemon's 3 cards per deck. So that at least triples the amount of money each good player has to spend in order to have a competitive deck. That's kind of an unavoidable problem, but making rarer cards and making them not so easy to get will definitely help.
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Another thing preventing Redemption from selling a bunch is that normal type I, which is the largest category, only has 1 available card per deck. Compare that to Yugioh and Pokemon's 3 cards per deck. So that at least triples the amount of money each good player has to spend in order to have a competitive deck. That's kind of an unavoidable problem, but making rarer cards and making them not so easy to get will definitely help.
Redemption is too far on in its life to switch type 1 from 1 per deck to 3 per deck. I dont think I really need to explain why ::) Besides the fact I personally like having one card per deck gives more variety to the game ;)
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Redemption is too far on in its life to switch type 1 from 1 per deck to 3 per deck. I dont think I really need to explain why ::)
Uh, I think you do. For what possible reason would you say Type 1 cannot sustain a higher card limit cap if Type 2 demonstrates it quite well? The biggest reason I do not get into Type 2 is because playing with 100 card decks is ridiculous. I however would LOVE to play a mini version of Type 2. If you apply the same rules of balanced decks, then you'd have a solid format.
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Maybe next ROOT variant? 3 of a card per deck except ls/dom/duel brigade?
Awesome job on the artwork Daniel!
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Type 1.5, maybe? Same deck size and general rules as T1, but with up to 2 of each card (since T1 decks are about half the size of T2, I think 2 would be better than 3) and balanced good/evil.
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Uh, I think you do. For what possible reason would you say Type 1 cannot sustain a higher card limit cap if Type 2 demonstrates it quite well? The biggest reason I do not get into Type 2 is because playing with 100 card decks is ridiculous. I however would LOVE to play a mini version of Type 2. If you apply the same rules of balanced decks, then you'd have a solid format.
Ok let me explain the reasoning behind "too far in its life" and why I still think Redemption needs a reboot. There are two reasons we shouldnt use more then one card in a deck.
Also keep in mind Redemption is and always has been designed with type 1 as the main focus.
First off deck size. Most games that allow you to use x3 or more of a single card in your deck all have larger deck minimums. Almost every game I think of that uses this method is a minimum of 50 cards or more many games being 60 cards minimum. When you look at Redemption the minimum size is 50 cards per deck but in all reality the deck size is 43 cards since the 7 lost souls are the equivalent of accidentally drawing a joker from a deck of cards during a poker game. So off the bat Redemption deck sizes in "theory" are 10 cards smaller.
Next point is because of the fact Redemption has been designed with Type 1 in mind the game. Redemption draws three cards at the start of a turn while most games its one card per turn. There is also a PLETHORA of pinatas of drawing cards. Your average CCG/LCG/TCG does not have the obscene number of drawing cards Redemption has. Most games have less then 10 drawing cards in their entire set block let alone card pool in smaller games. Now what is the biggest problem with Redemption meta wise? Speed! always has been the problem and always will be. If I am allowed to have x3 of cards in my deck what is stopping me from making my deck 7 souls, 7 doms, 15 heroes, 15 drawing cards and 12 battle winners? You cant require people to balance their decks its just dumb considering the small deck sizes.
The problem is Redemption has two "forces" good and evil in each deck while most games have one. The reason other dual "force" games are able to use multiple copies is because they are split evenly at 30 good and 30 evil cards in a deck (there are no neutral cards in most games ala Lost Soul or Art type cards). With Redemption in its current state it would be a blood bath of good and drawing cards being thrown around there would be literally no reason to use a defense in your deck.
Let me point out if the game is rebooted it would be possible to make x3 per deck part of the game (if the game designers deem it be). What happens when you reboot is you have a Starter Deck, a 365 sized base set (this was Deciphers magic number) and booster draft boxes (the boosters would all come from this base set). Later on you would produce smaller 150 cardish sized sets to boost themes ect.
With a base set this large you are allowed to start a game afresh so what you would do is drop all of the "added" brigades from the game so there would only have the ones started with from the blue packs. Each brigade would have one "theme" and would later have additional "themes" added to the brigades in other sets. No arts, forts or sites would be released in this base set. What this does if we can trim all of the fat/junk from the current game state and re release a clean simple stream lined version of the game. Later on you can add all the more complicated stuff/additional brigades to the game but in a much more "controlled" fashion then has been done in the past.
Basically with a reboot the game will be the same but have more streamlined easier to understand rules and a new more balanced meta. Really the main reason I like the idea of reboot is because we can take the game back a few notches from its current CBN, auto win, preblock ignore, speed, ect. ect. overpowered broken state the game seems to be in.
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Yu-Gi-Oh!'s minimum deck size is 40 and they allow up to 3 of most cards....
I don't think the current rules are that hard to understand. There are some interesting circumstances that can come up, but that's what Elders are for, to make rulings (and playtest cards if they're also on the PTB). :P
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Yu-Gi-Oh!'s minimum deck size is 40 and they allow up to 3 of most cards....
Still that game only uses one card medium not two. (I really have no clue how to word that but you get my point).
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There would be so much to rethink with allowing 3x of one card. I'm strongly against it. If you want to use multiples, play T2. The two types are vastly different and should remain that way. T1 really isn't THAT bad. There's always been complaints about it, whether FBTN or Speed or Z's Temple or TGT or Thaddeus or The Deck. I really don't see how allowing more of one card makes it more marketable or mainstream. I thoroughly enjoy the restrictions T1 brings.
Also, I'm pretty sure there'd be a way to break 3x of one card.
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7 lost souls would be 7 cards smaller, not 10. As Brow pointed out, Yugioh uses up to 3 of a card and 40 card minimum decks (the competitive standard.)
The draw 3 in comparison to other games drawing 1 is a valid point, but I wouldn't mind faster games if it meant we fit in a Game 2 and/or 3 with sideboard. I also specifically mentioned balancing the decks to circumvent the issue you bring up with putting in all aggro and speed, if we want a slower meta.
I don't understand what you mean by other games only having 1 'force.' All of the big 3 have ways to establish board control where defensive options are available to them on turns that are not their own. 'Good' and 'Evil' is absolutely irrelevant towards an offense and defense discussion, which is what it boils down to.
I honestly probably wouldn't mind a complete reboot to fix all the problems this game has grown into, like the massive power creep and obscenely broken cards (Dominants.) Redemption 2.0 would have the tons of experience gained from the years of Redemption 1.0, and it would be nice to start things fresh and balanced again. I guess it would all depend on which would put more money in Robs pockets: catering to the competitive or the casual player.
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I don't understand what you mean by other games only having 1 'force.' All of the big 3 have ways to establish board control where defensive options are available to them on turns that are not their own. 'Good' and 'Evil' is absolutely irrelevant towards an offense and defense discussion, which is what it boils down to.
That's certainly not true with Pokemon. You do nothing (but pray) when it's your opponent's turn. Pokemon can be used for offense or defense. MTG's characters (not sure what they're called) can be used for offense or defense, though there are other defensive cards. The point is that characters serve two purposes in those games.
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You've lost me. You say you can do nothing but pray come your opponents turn, but then admit Pokemon can be used for defense. MtG also has ways to establish defensive board control through creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, as well as other numerous options from hand and such. My entire point was it has less to do with the alignment of characters (which is possibly a hindrance towards Redemption since it splits the roles distinctly into offense and defense), whereas in other CCGs offensive and defensive options are more flexible as the roles can be fulfilled by all characters/creatures/monsters/pokemon/etc.
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hmm side battle effects this
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You've lost me. You say you can do nothing but pray come your opponents turn, but then admit Pokemon can be used for defense. MtG also has ways to establish defensive board control through creatures, artifacts, and enchantments, as well as other numerous options from hand and such. My entire point was it has less to do with the alignment of characters (which is possibly a hindrance towards Redemption since it splits the roles distinctly into offense and defense), whereas in other CCGs offensive and defensive options are more flexible as the roles can be fulfilled by all characters/creatures/monsters/pokemon/etc.
While you don't perform any actions on your opponent's turn, on your turn you choose who to attack with, which then is the pokemon who also takes the hit from your opponent's attack. So not exactly defense, but still serve two purposes.
The rest I agree with, and I think is exactly what Isildur was saying. Other CCGs are more flexible because they serve both purposes. Redemption would pretty much be centered around offense if we used 3 of a card per deck.
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I'm curious to know what 'other' dual force CCGs he is talking about. I'm also not understanding his point how making T1 utilize multiple copies with balanced alignments wouldn't curb people from throwing every uber drawing card/battle winner in triplicates into a deck.
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I'm curious to know what 'other' dual force CCGs he is talking about. I'm also not understanding his point how making T1 utilize multiple copies with balanced alignments wouldn't curb people from throwing every uber drawing card/battle winner in triplicates into a deck.
Single force are when cards such as in Yugioh, Pokemon and Magic can literally be used for Defense or Offense. A dual force is when a card can be used ONLY for offense or ONLY for defense as in the card is good or evil. Im not sure how many other CCG's/LCG's you have played but it REALLY makes a difference in deck building when you have cards that can always be used either/or.
(If your wondering why I said "force" its because I just watched Star Wars... lololol)
I'm curious to know what 'other' dual force CCGs he is talking about. I'm also not understanding his point how making T1 utilize multiple copies with balanced alignments wouldn't curb people from throwing every uber drawing card/battle winner in triplicates into a deck.
Oh it would probably work but the game would be super boring... a split 56 card deck gives you far less options when you it comes to deck building...
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Also, I'm pretty sure there'd be a way to break 3x of one card.
I would start with x3 WaterJar, x3 WordsofDiscouragement, x2 InvokingTerror.
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Well before the errata the easiest way to break 3 of one card would have been 3 ANBs. 3 unblockable rescue attempts plus drawing your whole deck fro SOG/NJ