Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Isildur on April 19, 2011, 02:14:40 AM
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After seeing table talk pop up in the Defending Ethics thread I thought I would ask what is the Tourney definition of table talk and what are your guys opinions on table talk?
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im assuming this pertains to multi/draft as table talk is allowed in teams? i see nothing wrong with it, as multi is cutthroat and any information you leak could be detrimental to yourself.
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Accept the culture. If you don't like table talk, don't play multiple-player. If you do accept table talk as 'that is part of the game' then you won't 'expect' to win and you can enjoy. Play once with Emjaybee and I and you too can be a backstabbing, lying, cutthroat having a blast! ;D
It is more fun talking about how you got ambushed or did the ambushing than winning any way. :angel:
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It's true, any MP player game where CountFount and Emjaybee are both present will most likely be one of the funnest games of your life. For being old, those guys sure know how to party. :)
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Table talk should be banned for tournament play. When you've got to fight tooth and nail for every soul, getting screwed over because your opponents are conspiring against you can ruin your day.
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thats just the nature of the beast. my suggestion is to play the quiet guy and not bring alot of attention to yourself, then silently go in for the kill. ;D
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thats just the nature of the beast. my suggestion is to play the quiet guy and not bring alot of attention to yourself, then silently go in for the kill. ;D
It's kinda difficult to do that when you've got the reputation as the second best player in the area. I was in last place at the table and STILL got SWJ'd.
I'd love to be able to "not draw any attention to myself." I'm not even that good.
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Basically, I do not have any problem with table talk provided it is not being engaged in to gain a competitive advantage. I also recognize that some people prefer no chatter and have held back when asked. (Yes, I realize if I were more sensitive to others I wouldn't need to be asked.)
Games I am involved with tend to have a lot of table talk--including things like "If Justin is only behind by three LS I still consider him to be in the lead" and "A few dominants never hurt anyone especially if their last name begins with an 'A' or a 'V'." The deal is that all of this is joking around with experienced players and not intended to influence the play at hand The only exceptions are taking time in tournaments to teach someone how to play better and I only do that if the tournament is really low-level, the other players agree and it hurts me.
The best table talk ever: I am playing at Ohio Nats with one of SlugFencer's sons. He goes on to tell everyone at the table how he's not that good of a player and how he is only there because it meant a lot to his dad to be able to spend some time together and so on and so forth. It was really touching, and we all sort of believed him until he pulled some wicked combo and then started chuckling to himself.
Table talk should be banned for tournament play. When you've got to fight tooth and nail for every soul, getting screwed over because your opponents are conspiring against you can ruin your day.
Kittens, if the table talk you are used to solely consists of your opponents conspiring against you that stinks. Surprisingly the Alstad clan, Voigt pere and fils, and our visitors such as RDT and THE Isbel never need to conspire in order to mess me up. Maybe you should try to find a better class of MP opponents.
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Accept the culture. If you don't like table talk, don't play multiple-player. If you do accept table talk as 'that is part of the game' then you won't 'expect' to win and you can enjoy. Play once with Emjaybee and I and you too can be a backstabbing, lying, cutthroat having a blast! ;D
It is more fun talking about how you got ambushed or did the ambushing than winning any way. :angel:
Can you expand on the the "lying" part? That is a line that I choose not to cross, and in our playgroup a player that lies is not tolerated, but that's just our group. I know that we all have some evil cards in our decks, but those are being played by my evil characters, not me personally. But if I were to say something like "If you come after me I'll give you a lost soul", and then I DO stop them, how is this not a violation of God's word regarding lying? I told my brother I would do one thing, and then I did the opposite. And why not lie about how many lost souls I have redeemed, or if I have played Son of God yet, or whether or not I have a certain card in my deck/hand? I like to be "sneaky" as much as the next person, but it seems that lying would be against the rules of the game and of God.
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Accept the culture. If you don't like table talk, don't play multiple-player. If you do accept table talk as 'that is part of the game' then you won't 'expect' to win and you can enjoy. Play once with Emjaybee and I and you too can be a backstabbing, lying, cutthroat having a blast! ;D
It is more fun talking about how you got ambushed or did the ambushing than winning any way. :angel:
Can you expand on the the "lying" part? That is a line that I choose not to cross, and in our playgroup a player that lies is not tolerated, but that's just our group. I know that we all have some evil cards in our decks, but those are being played by my evil characters, not me personally. But if I were to say something like "If you come after me I'll give you a lost soul", and then I DO stop them, how is this not a violation of God's word regarding lying? I told my brother I would do one thing, and then I did the opposite. And why not lie about how many lost souls I have redeemed, or if I have played Son of God yet, or whether or not I have a certain card in my deck/hand? I like to be "sneaky" as much as the next person, but it seems that lying would be against the rules of the game and of God.
You are absolutely right about lying. I have tried over and over to convince EmJayBee83 of this point. He just persists in telling me that he "will work with me", Let's use "our" dominants on the other two, Did you know if you let me win I will give you all my ocean property in Oklahoma?, Gabe is not a terrorist he just doesn't know that a razor is a tool of "beauty", Justin A is a nice guy....things like that. ;D
I want to play a game with you so you can have fun playing MP. ;)
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*edit* insta-posted by an old guy. I must be getting REALLY slow. ;)
I agree with your assessment and ethics. I'm 99.9% that CountFount does also.
CountFount isn't talking about lying to be deceitful. I believe he's referring to situations where he and MJB are at a MP table with someone who is a "better player" than them so they pretend to conspire to help each other and stop the "better player". In the end MJB was the first to break their "truce" and CountFount got left in the dust. Thus the "backstabbing, lying, cutthroat" comment ,that taken out of context doesn't seem like it has any place in a game centered around Christ, fun and fellowship. :)
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*edit* insta-posted by an old guy. I must be getting REALLY slow. ;)
I agree with your assessment and ethics. I'm 99.9% that CountFount does also.
CountFount isn't talking about lying to be deceitful. I believe he's referring to situations where he and MJB are at a MP table with someone who is a "better player" than them so they pretend to conspire to help each other and stop the "better player". In the end MJB was the first to break their "truce" and CountFount got left in the dust. Thus the "backstabbing, lying, cutthroat" comment ,that taken out of context doesn't seem like it has any place in a game centered around Christ, fun and fellowship. :)
Amen
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Play once with Emjaybee and I and you too can be a backstabbing, lying, cutthroat having a blast! ;D
Three things:
1) I am fairly certain that any "agreements" that existed between us in any "game" that we may or may not have "played" against each other existed solely in your imagination.
2) Sometimes a momma bird needs to push a little one out of the nest so he can learn to fly on his own. Although clearly not at my level, the Count needed to learn that he a capable player (in his own limited way) with no need to ride on my coat-tails. So any hypothetical backstabbing (see thing #1, above) was really for his own good--just like when the crows gave Dumbo a "magic feather" to give him confidence to fly. (I believe that is also why Gabe's nickname for CountFount is Dumbo.)
3) The Count also needs to learn the art of forgiveness and how to graciously accept an apology for something that never even happened to begin with (see thing #1, above). At our last T2-MP game together I did everything to try and make up for any imagined slight. In fact I tried to help the Count out by not forcing him to make any complicated decisions or to risk hurting his characters. Every single stinking time I made a RA against him, I gave him one of my ECs to block with. The fact that I did that out of the goodness of my heart and this is how CountFount repays me says all that needs to be said.
To stefferweffer: I agree with your statements on the ethics of lying. Just for background, the Count and I have been Redemption friends since Ohio Nats when he and his sons were exceedingly kind to me at lunch one day. All of this back and forth is just an example of a crotchety old man (the Count) and his younger rakish friend yelling "Stay off of my lawn" at each other.
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Thanks. In my experience, table talk is nothing more than "don't let him get his third soul" etc. I'd love to play a game where I'm not constantly harassed.
As to the "culture" comment: I don't like MP (in tournaments) as much as other styles. Problem is, it is the only chance I have to win...
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The best table talk ever: I am playing at Ohio Nats with one of SlugFencer's sons. He goes on to tell everyone at the table how he's not that good of a player and how he is only there because it meant a lot to his dad to be able to spend some time together and so on and so forth. It was really touching, and we all sort of believed him until he pulled some wicked combo and then started chuckling to himself.
I remember that game. He started with the whole sweet little kid routine, and then proceeded to totally attack one of the players at the table into the ground, playing all his dominants on them. It was funny because it wasn't me.
Then in a later game that I played with the same guy, he pulled the same thing again, and that time I was the chosen one, and I got clobbered by him. Since I'd seen him do it before, and I knew it wasn't personal, I actually still found it funny, in spite of the fact that I lost that game badly.
I'd love to play a game where I'm not constantly harassed.
Just wait until you play at bigger tournaments like Regionals and Nationals. When you're a big fish in a small pond, people gang up on you. But then when you swim in the ocean suddenly no one pays any attention to you anymore :)
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Play once with Emjaybee and I and you too can be a backstabbing, lying, cutthroat having a blast! ;D
Three things:
1) I am fairly certain that any "agreements" that existed between us in any "game" that we may or may not have "played" against each other existed solely in your imagination.
2) Sometimes a momma bird needs to push a little one out of the nest so he can learn to fly on his own. Although clearly not at my level, the Count needed to learn that he a capable player (in his own limited way) with no need to ride on my coat-tails. So any hypothetical backstabbing (see thing #1, above) was really for his own good--just like when the crows gave Dumbo a "magic feather" to give him confidence to fly. (I believe that is also why Gabe's nickname for CountFount is Dumbo.)
3) The Count also needs to learn the art of forgiveness and how to graciously accept an apology for something that never even happened to begin with (see thing #1, above). At our last T2-MP game together I did everything to try and make up for any imagined slight. In fact I tried to help the Count out by not forcing him to make any complicated decisions or to risk hurting his characters. Every single stinking time I made a RA against him, I gave him one of my ECs to block with. The fact that I did that out of the goodness of my heart and this is how CountFount repays me says all that needs to be said.
To stefferweffer: I agree with your statements on the ethics of lying. Just for background, the Count and I have been Redemption friends since Ohio Nats when he and his sons were exceedingly kind to me at lunch one day. All of this back and forth is just an example of a crotchety old man (the Count) and his younger rakish friend yelling "Stay off of my lawn" at each other.
Hey everybody! EmJayBee83 says we are friends! You realize Matt, Friends don't let Friends play people from Iowa. Right?
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Hey everybody! EmJayBee83 says we are friends! You realize Matt, Friends don't let Friends play people from Iowa. Right?
Don't let my reputation ruin your perspective of all Iowans. There are still a lot of nice people here. :angel:
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Hey everybody! EmJayBee83 says we are friends! You realize Matt, Friends don't let Friends play people from Iowa. Right?
Don't let my reputation ruin your respective of all Iowans. There are still a lot of nice people here. :angel:
Don't anybody believe Him....It's just Table Talk. ;)
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Now I wanna play some multi.... badly.
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DaClock, NWJosh, TJ and I all find that serious players really put a crimp in our multi game fun. ;)
That's why we never let them join our reindeer games.
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Thanks. In my experience, table talk is nothing more than "don't let him get his third soul" etc.
This comment, I would have to rate as *legitimate* table talk although I typically say "This is his third" or "This is for the win if he's got the big two" or... "Justin can't get to #5 if you don't give him #1."
I have played in games where someone miscounted lost souls and gave a freebie as the third when everyone--including the blocker--knew the person getting the soul hadn't played SoG/NJ. From experience it is not very much fun to win simply because someone made a silly mistake.
Hey everybody! EmJayBee83 says we are friends!
Burn!
You are absolutely right about lying. I have tried over and over to convince EmJayBee83 of this point.
Some people just never learn. heh.
Count, we should organize a charity auction at Nationals where people bid to be able to play a T2-MP game against you, Rawrlolsauce!, and I. All of the moneys earned could go to fund next year's T2-Only travel support budget. We could guarantee them a good time.
Don't let my reputation ruin your perspective of all Iowans. There are still a lot of nice people here. :angel:
We don't hold it against you. After all Missy is nice enough for three people, so she cancels you out. ;)
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Count, we should organize a charity auction at Nationals where people bid to be able to play a T2-MP game against you, Rawrlolsauce!, and I. All of the moneys earned could go to fund next year's T2-Only travel support budget. We could guarantee them a good time.
Absolutely! We could show them how to pick on one particular player (Um..Alan) and how much fun it is for you and I to eventually turn on each other and lose to that one particular player.
Or
We could place a bounty on your head! If they beat you and lose to me, they pay $20. If they beat you and me, they pay $40. If they lose to you and me and beat a particular friend of Missy's in Iowa, then Missy's "Friend" pays $60. Entrance fee to our table is at least $20. This money will help pay fees for anyone over 40 who comes to Nats. Thoughts?
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Count, we should organize a charity auction at Nationals where people bid to be able to play a T2-MP game against you, Rawrlolsauce!, and I.
Absolutely! We could show them how to pick on one particular player (Um..Alan)
Alan: For the fourth time I convert a Proud Pharisee to white brigade.
MJB: For the fourth time I place Destructive Sin on the now heroic Proud Pharisee.
That was a fun game.
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It's all good. I've totally changed my offense. Instead of using white I'm just relying on using provisions to let Aaron choose Idolaters as the blocker, right out of MJB's play book, so I don't need to worry about DS. I'm also going to start using Hard Hearted Religious Leaders (unlimited) instead of Proud Pharisees because then I don't have to worry about my SA being negated or revealing my hand, so you guys won't know I use multiple Son of Gods.
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then I don't have to worry about my SA being negated or revealing my hand, so you guys won't know I use multiple Son of Gods.
What is that! Some kinda 'you guys are so old and forgetful you won't notice' slam. **note to self fall on Alan at next tournament.**
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then I don't have to worry about my SA being negated or revealing my hand, so you guys won't know I use multiple Son of Gods.
What is that! Some kinda 'you guys are so old and forgetful you won't notice' slam. **note to self fall on Alan at next tournament.**
Epic Surprise Trustfall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg6UbqBhrWM#)
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Thanks. In my experience, table talk is nothing more than "don't let him get his third soul" etc.
This comment, I would have to rate as *legitimate* table talk although I typically say "This is his third" or "This is for the win if he's got the big two" or... "Justin can't get to #5 if you don't give him #1."
I have played in games where someone miscounted lost souls and gave a freebie as the third when everyone--including the blocker--knew the person getting the soul hadn't played SoG/NJ. From experience it is not very much fun to win simply because someone made a silly mistake.
Yeah, but that's said every single time. I think it was mentioned in the other thread how irritating it is when someone tries to convince new players to attack you.
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You are absolutely right about lying. I have tried over and over to convince EmJayBee83 of this point. He just persists in telling me that he "will work with me", Let's use "our" dominants on the other two, Did you know if you let me win I will give you all my ocean property in Oklahoma?, Gabe is not a terrorist he just doesn't know that a razor is a tool of "beauty", Justin A is a nice guy....things like that. ;D
I want to play a game with you so you can have fun playing MP. ;)
I seriously LOL'ed so hard a little bit of pee came out.
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It's all good. I've totally changed my offense.
That stinks. The Count and I felt so bad about how we had treated you that we were planning on letting you play your converted Proud Pharisee at the next game. Heck, I even took all the copies of Destructive Sin out of my deck to make things more fun for you. I replaced them with some Darius's Decrees and Covenants of Abraham.
You are absolutely right about lying. I have tried over and over to convince EmJayBee83 of this point. He just persists in telling me that he "will work with me", Let's use "our" dominants on the other two, Did you know if you let me win I will give you all my ocean property in Oklahoma?, Gabe is not a terrorist he just doesn't know that a razor is a tool of "beauty", Justin A is a nice guy....things like that. ;D
I want to play a game with you so you can have fun playing MP. ;)
I seriously LOL'ed so hard a little bit of pee came out.
If you thought that was funny, you should try playing a game of multi-player with him at the table. Once you get past the prune smell and the snoring, it can be almost enjoyable.
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Randall, people attack you for this reason. You taught us all and they feel like it's an accomplishment to win against you. To us, its besting the Master. Now, I don't like it anymore than you do that people try to convince others to attack you, but that doesnt mean I or others are going to listen to them. But, you are intimidating to us because you know so very well what you are doing and we do not. Ahem...Brett, huge mistake in multi on saturday....
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If a top tier player sits down in a multiplayer game they best be recognizing they bout to get pounced. I realize this plenty of times, and I know it is coming. I try to stay quiet and not attack, but it usually still does not matter. I don't mind table talk if it is just for fun/joking around. I actually love it. I love being able to sit down at a table with a bunch of friends and joke around. BUT, at a top level tournament I would definitely call out another player if they blatantly announced, "Hey attack me so you get a lost soul and I can take out his offense." Yeah you also best recognize my boy B-dawg Hake is coming over for some business. So in a fun joking around way, I do not mind what so ever, but blatant, attack me so I can make sure he won't win is not cool. I will accept however a, "Hey your offense looks very strong against my defense..." Maybe even throw in a wink at the end of it. I am fine with that as it is strategy and it is suggesting something to your opponent, but letting him decode it and make the decision. I think table talk is not right when it changes the opponent's mind on doing something he or she would not do, and affects the game in the favor of "the talker".
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A lot of of that is usually whats going on in our games. I try to ignore it, even though it would work in my favor occasionally. It just seems too...dishonest to me. And things are only in jest if both parties feel that way, which is rarely the case. Its one of the reasons I hate multi, that and its very hard for me to concentrate on one persons strategy, let alone three.
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I dont mind table talk, its when people dont know how to play multiplayer that gets me...
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well, when multi is the only thing available....
I stuggle at it.
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The best table talk ever: I am playing at Ohio Nats with one of SlugFencer's sons. He goes on to tell everyone at the table how he's not that good of a player and how he is only there because it meant a lot to his dad to be able to spend some time together and so on and so forth. It was really touching, and we all sort of believed him until he pulled some wicked combo and then started chuckling to himself.
I remember that game. He started with the whole sweet little kid routine, and then proceeded to totally attack one of the players at the table into the ground, playing all his dominants on them. It was funny because it wasn't me.
Then in a later game that I played with the same guy, he pulled the same thing again, and that time I was the chosen one, and I got clobbered by him. Since I'd seen him do it before, and I knew it wasn't personal, I actually still found it funny, in spite of the fact that I lost that game badly.
:D
Sounds like Peter. lil stinker. I didn't know he was trying his "cute little kid routine." Chip off the ol block. :laugh:
I was at one of his tables, too, and thought he might show me some mercy, until his doms flew fast and furiously at me...at head scratching moments...until I saw him cackling at me. :laugh:
My other son, Christian, was at another multi table with me and simply announced to the table "kill my dad."
ahhh, Such love!! :laugh:
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I dont mind table talk, its when people dont know how to play multiplayer that gets me...
I agree with this +1
Since Redemption is competitive and merely a fun game (not to be taken to seriously), I hold/apply the opinion that "All if fair in love and war". Thus, table talk is ok by me. I also think that at the end of the day "what goes around comes around".
The only main reservation I have with this idea, is DO NOT LIE. Sharing your opinion, giving advice, conspiring, etc is all fair in my book.
Logic:
Experienced players are already at at advantage, is there a problem with some youngsters teaming up and having fun winning against someone they may not have been able to?
If an experience player tries this, everyone will already be on guard because they know that he is experienced, so it probably won't work.
If you are the one being targeted and you are against table talk, recognize that you are obviously in the minority trying to convince the majority to play differently, and instead, start table talking yourself.
I;ve had it done to me, and done it to another. You just can't let it get ya down. Remember that everyone is playing the same game, and it is just that, a fun game.
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So you're fine with conspiracy and backstabbing, as long as one doesn't lie?
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So you're fine with conspiracy and backstabbing, as long as one doesn't lie?
yes, although keep in mind I did not actually list backstab in my post, and it would be very hard to do without lying, so it rarely is ok by me
Conspiracy is going to happen with or without table talk. If it's 1-1-1-4 in booster, people will save their defensive cards for you (if they are smart).
If I may ask, has any "better" player ever table talked against you?
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If you are the one being targeted and you are against table talk, recognize that you are obviously in the minority trying to convince the majority to play differently, and instead, start table talking yourself.
Completely disagree. If someone is about to block me with one card (i.e. has the EC in hand and is moving it towards the Field of Battle) and someone else blurts out "No! Use your other guy!" you can be assured that I am not going to let that fly. That is wrong and should not be tolerated in a tournament game. Table talk is useful in games being played for fun so that inexperienced players can learn what cards are best for different situations, but in a tournament game there should be no "coaching" unless a player asks "Am I allowed to make this play?" (Note that the previous question is different from "Would this be the best play?").
I don't wish to come across as a legalistic jerk, but I once lost a Regional tournament because someone told another player, "Attack me, I'll give you the Lost Soul." Coming in 2nd at that tournament also meant I ended up 2nd in RNRS for that year. I'm not bitter and I obviously didn't quit Redemption, but it's just a good reminder that there are rules in place and we should abide by them, because that is just as vital to fun and fellowship as having a good time while playing. :)
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I once lost a Regional tournament because someone told another player, "Attack me, I'll give you the Lost Soul."
I can't remember the last time I played in booster where that DIDN'T happen...
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I am all for table talk as long as you aren't flat out telling someone what to do. I think that it is OK to remind someone of an ability on their cards and what the score is as long as you aren't doing it maliciously. I would hate to lose a game because someone forgot to use the special ability of a card they have active.
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i think the best solution to table talk is to just play with everyones hands revealed. problem solved.
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WE are not talking a bunch of newbs and one good player who is winning here, we are talking about four good players who dont need to do that, are prefectly capable of winning without the table talk and attacking a player who isnt winning because they fear he could do, not what he is doing. I will admit, I have fallen into the temptation and had to check myself on it. But I dont like watching it, and alot of these scenarios you people keep bringing up sound absolutely terrible and frankly I would be ticked off being in those games. If people cant keep track of the gameplay, they dont need to be reminded. Live and learn, and dont make the same mistake again. Even Monopoly has rules that prevent table talk. If someone lands on your property and you dont notice, they dont have to pay you.
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I once lost a Regional tournament because someone told another player, "Attack me, I'll give you the Lost Soul."
I can't remember the last time I played in booster where that DIDN'T happen...
There are certainly times when a player should realize that an opponent will probably give him a free LS because he is behind or to keep the next opponent from rescuing it, but by no means should that be verbalized by another player.
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there are rules in place
Citation needed.
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Table Talk is an inevitable part of team play. It is allowed, but be careful what information you share, it may benefit more than just your teammate. All discussions must be in English. If you choose to reveal a
card or cards from your hand it must be universal disclosure.
Since the tournament guide specifically states that Table Talk IS allowed in TEAMS, I believe it is reasonable to infer that it is NOT allowed in other multi-player formats (otherwise there would be no need to clarify that it is allowed in TEAMS).
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Why does it state it must be in English? Can't it just say it must be in a language all players understand?
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Legion specifically mentions that you CAN have 4 of them per 50 in a deck, so naturally you CANNOT have 3 of them per 50.
There is no converse extrapolation with rules, especially rules relating to such an oddball category.
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Oddly enough, I couldn't find any rules specifically stating that setting your opponent's deck on fire was not allowed. Ergo, it must be allowed...
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Couldn't find any rules allowing blonde people to play, must be banned!
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If you are the one being targeted and you are against table talk, recognize that you are obviously in the minority trying to convince the majority to play differently, and instead, start table talking yourself.
Completely disagree. If someone is about to block me with one card (i.e. has the EC in hand and is moving it towards the Field of Battle) and someone else blurts out "No! Use your other guy!" you can be assured that I am not going to let that fly. That is wrong and should not be tolerated in a tournament game. Table talk is useful in games being played for fun so that inexperienced players can learn what cards are best for different situations, but in a tournament game there should be no "coaching" unless a player asks "Am I allowed to make this play?" (Note that the previous question is different from "Would this be the best play?").
OK, real example...
At the last NHLC local Jayden Alstad and I were playing booster with two other players who basically didn't understand the differences between multi-player and two-player. Going around the table, clockwise, it was myself, Jayden, player A and player B, with scores of 4-2-1-1. Jayden, myself, and Player B each had 1 LS available and no one could stop my offense. It is Player A's turn and he decides to make an RA against me. I basically tell him that that is a silly play, and both Jayden and I explain why it is a bad play and how he should approach it. So Player A re-rescues against Player B who gives him a lost soul. Player B attacks Jayden who gives him a lost soul, and now the score is 4-2-2-2 with my turn up and no ls available for the win.
The upsides are that the game was extended and made much more enjoyable for everyone (I think the final score was something like 5-4-3-3). More importantly Player A gained real in tournament experience with multi-player strategy, which will up the overall play level of the entire play group. The downsides are that this was an official tournament and I most certainly did engage in the most egregious "coaching" form of table talk whose sole result was to influence the actions of another player.
Would I have done this at a Regional tournament--no. Would I have done this if Jayden were the player possibly going for the win on his next turn--no. Would I have done this if Player A was an experienced player--no. BUT...if the same situation (local tournament + the table talk only hurts me + good teaching moment) were to arise again, I would probably do the same thing. Given the positives that came out of it, I really can't make myself feel all that badly about this.
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Would I have done this at a Regional tournament--no. Would I have done this if Jayden were the player possibly going for the win on his next turn--no. Would I have done this if Player A was an experienced player--no. BUT...if the same situation (local tournament + the table talk only hurts me + good teaching moment) were to arise again, I would probably do the same thing. Given the positives that came out of it, I really can't make myself feel all that badly about this.
Redemption Pharisees and Saducees UNITE! Here we have an admission of the kinda table talk (while making for a pleasant Christian-like game) by the letter of the law SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. At a minimum he should be band (if not stoned) and never allowed to play another MP game. SHAME SHAME SHAME. We can have no such endeavors in this GAME. Why? because Noobs show up everywhere. Even Regionals! I say BAN HIM. Who knows but he may try to turn a Regional....No Wait!... A NATIONALS ... into a Christian-like game where we want everyone to play their best. Destroy the Infidel. The LAW MUST BE UPHELD.!!!!
By the way Matt, Let me cast the first stone.... :angel:
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Going around the table, clockwise, it was myself, Jayden, player A and player B, with scores of 4-2-1-1. Jayden, myself, and Player B each had 1 LS available and no one could stop my offense. It is Player A's turn and he decides to make an RA against me. I basically tell him that that is a silly play, and both Jayden and I explain why it is a bad play and how he should approach it. So Player A re-rescues against Player B who gives him a lost soul. Player B attacks Jayden who gives him a lost soul, and now the score is 4-2-2-2 with my turn up and no ls available for the win.
I actually have no problem with this situation at all. Many inexperienced players don't get the whole idea that if you take the LS that is available to your opponent, that it gives 1 less for them to rescue, and thus an offensive move is actually a defensive move. Teaching this to them in a tournament setting is a kind thing to do. I wouldn't even mind if I had been the person at 4 and someone else had recommended that they take a LS away that was available to me. I want to win multi-player games because people ran out of ways to stop me, not because some noob played poorly. There's no feeling of accomplishment in a hollow victory.
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I want to win multi-player games because people ran out of ways to stop me, not because some noob played poorly.
Sorry, I'm playing multi this nationals.
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Just one follow-up (since others have already responded I'll post separately so it doesn't get lost)...
Re-reading what I wrote and how others have responded I just want to make it clear that my reply was not intended as a slam at Justin. Having sat at tables with him, I recognize that he frequently is the target of a lot of cheap play. So much so that it leads me to make joking table talk of the form "If you have martyr you should play it, because Justin can't get #5 if you don't give him #1." The grace with which he handles these types of situations is a credit to him and a blessing to the players who get an opportunity to learn from him how a champion carries himself.
I was using Justin's post as a spring-board to point out that sometimes even the most egregious table talk can have its place--nothing more.
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Just one follow-up (since others have already responded I'll post separately so it doesn't get lost)...
Re-reading what I wrote and how others have responded I just want to make it clear that my reply was not intended as a slam at Justin. Having sat at tables with him, I recognize that he frequently is the target of a lot of cheap play. So much so that it leads me to make joking table talk of the form "If you have martyr you should play it, because Justin can't get #5 if you don't give him #1." The grace with which he handles these types of situations is a credit to him and a blessing to the players who get an opportunity to learn from him how a champion carries himself.
I was using Justin's post as a spring-board to point out that sometimes even the most egregious table talk can have its place--nothing more.
Stone Matt! Protect Justin!
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Just one follow-up (since others have already responded I'll post separately so it doesn't get lost)...
Re-reading what I wrote and how others have responded I just want to make it clear that my reply was not intended as a slam at Justin. Having sat at tables with him, I recognize that he frequently is the target of a lot of cheap play. So much so that it leads me to make joking table talk of the form "If you have martyr you should play it, because Justin can't get #5 if you don't give him #1." The grace with which he handles these types of situations is a credit to him and a blessing to the players who get an opportunity to learn from him how a champion carries himself.
I was using Justin's post as a spring-board to point out that sometimes even the most egregious table talk can have its place--nothing more.
I was curious how he took it. I don't handle unjust actions nearly so well. I need to learn more patience and often people feel compelled to teach it to me in multi.
Thus, the creation of my signature after one particular regionals in which I was beaten up on in all the multi categories I had played in at every single table.
Goooossfrabaaaaahhhhh
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Rest assured Matt, I did not see it as a slam at all.
While my teaching approach is different--I try to point out things people could have done better after the game is over--I certainly understand and appreciate the value of showing someone right then and there what could be done differently. I have been blessed (cursed?) with the innate ability to remember the mistake I made on turn 3, even if it was an hour ago, but I know that isn't true for everyone. :P I believe both approaches are valuable ways to teach someone. I also know that you would not engage in such "coaching" to improve your own position because that simply is not who you are, and I have great respect for that. :)
Protect Justin!
Craig, I'm gonna remind you that you said that next time we're in a T2 MP game together. ;D
I was curious how he took it.
You learn to adapt. Whenever Matt breaks out his "Justin can't get #5 if you don't give him #1" speech, I bring out my nearly-perfected sad puppy face where it looks like I'm gonna start crying if one more person uses Christian Martyr on me :'(...even the hardest hearts stand no chance. ::)
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So are those of you who are opposed to table talk only opposed to the verbal or does it also include the non-verbal (i.e. Justin's puppy dog eyes)?
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Touche! :D
I'm not sure how anyone could be opposed to my puppy dog eyes tho... :angel:
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Is texting another player in Multi against the rules? ::)
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Is texting another player in Multi against the rules? ::)
Depends on the Service Provider
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Is texting another player in Multi against the rules? ::)
Depends on the Service Provider
Because anything other than Verizon won't show up until after the game anyway... ;D
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Protect Justin!
Craig, I'm gonna remind you that you said that next time we're in a T2 MP game together. ;D
He'll need the reminder. He's old and forgetful. ::)
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Protect Justin!
Craig, I'm gonna remind you that you said that next time we're in a T2 MP game together. ;D
He'll need the reminder. He's old and forgetful. ::)
Stone Gabe! Protect Matt and Justin!
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First off, allow me to submit myself to any and all stoning as there are a lot less lost souls to redeem in multiplayer since captured demons (and ugly lizards) cannot be redeemed.
[/shameless plug]
Second, the notation in the Tournament Guide that legal table talk should be English is discrimination. As someone who lives with a person who seldom understands figures of speech, idioms and such, I feel that if table talk is legalized, any language should be allowed. This includes facial and body expressions.
That being said, I was very appreciative that Chris Bany allowed me to provide sign-language interpretation for my daughter at 2005 Nationals. All of her opponents were agreeable to this.
Finally, some advice: don't take this game too seriously. ;)
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So my teammate and I can't invent our own language? What about the fact that English is a living language, with new words being added all the time? (So we couldn't use "lol" at Boston, but it's ok in MN?)
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Why does it state it must be in English? Can't it just say it must be in a language all players understand?
I agree Stamp.
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How is using code language different from different language? Both serve the same purpose. What if I invent a code for every word or phrase?
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Just remember, "Justin nicht gewinnen kann fünf verlorenen Seelen, wenn er nicht gewinnen Sie einen verlorenen Seele" is legal table talk in any language.
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Ja, das ist recht.
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So, would the Sweedish Chef be allowed to play teams?
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Just remember, "Justin nicht gewinnen kann fünf verlorenen Seelen, wenn er nicht gewinnen Sie einen verlorenen Seele" is legal table talk in any language.
What you talking about Willis?
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Something Tell me you wouldnt want to play teams with the Swedish Chef. Perhaps the guy who does his subtitles, he seems pretty cool.
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Bork Bork Rourke Spork
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http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=xx-bork (http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=xx-bork)
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http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=xx-bork (http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=xx-bork)
Ah, google. What will you think of next?
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They'll be taking over the world, if they haven't already.
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According to google they are still in the process of taking it over.
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That's what they want you to think. Can I Google something during Teams?