Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: hi123 on March 30, 2012, 02:49:39 PM
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The shuffler lost soul was a lost soul most commonly used for defense. Now that you cant play dominants on your own lost souls, will people stop using shuffler? You cant SOG/NJ your shuffler to shuffle the lost souls in your territory when your opponent is making a rescue attempt to stop him from rescuing your lost souls. I also see for the same reason the shuffler being a key card in a defenseless deck, most decks with no defense usualy use the strategie of placing NT Lost souls beneath deck and shuffling lost souls. In my opinion, shuffler will only be used in about half the decks at tournaments and playgroups, where say last year at this time shuffler was probably the second or third most common lost soul for decks. The other card that is a common card in decks that hurts shuffler is nazereth. No shuffling! Is shuffler dead n gone?
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I personally always used to use shuffler and 2-liner, but have stopped using them since the new rulings. Shuffler hurts me now more than it helps since I can no longer rescue my own with SoG/NJ.
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I will not be using Shuffler in any of my decks this season, and the likelihood that I'll be using 2-Liner is slim to none as well.
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wait how is 2 liner suddenly dead? It's still an auto block with burial. If anything it's even better now
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wait how is 2 liner suddenly dead? It's still an auto block with burial. If anything it's even better now
Not many people are going to be willing to put in burial as opposed to other doms with the dom cap. I'd still use the 2-liner with hormah though.
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wait how is 2 liner suddenly dead? It's still an auto block with burial. If anything it's even better now
Not many people are going to be willing to put in burial as opposed to other doms with the dom cap. I'd still use the 2-liner with hormah though.
I would use 2-liner in any deck that I use an LS shuffler (DoU, Just a Hireling, SSS, etc.) or Hormah. But I can definitely see the argument for not using it in many decks now. Shuffler is still useful, but primarily in balanced-defensive heavy decks, where shuffling all of your LS's might hide them for a few turns. I wouldn't use it in a speed deck.
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I think shuffler will still be popular in multiplayer (since someone else can just SoG it). It's still somewhat viable in 2-player in that you can give it to your opponent for their rescue attempt :P
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wait how is 2 liner suddenly dead? It's still an auto block with burial. If anything it's even better now
There's two reasons it's doubtful I'll use 2-Liner. First off, I'll probably never use Burial ever. Angel of the Lord, Christian Martyr, and Grapes are all staples to me (plus the big two), and Mayhem is likely to find its way into any deck I build as well. That leaves Harvest Time, Destruction of Nehushtan, and Falling Away to fight it out for the last dom spot, and I think all three of them are better suited for my style of play (speed) than Burial is. Since I'll very rarely ever play 2-Liner without Burial or Shuffler (which I'll never use with the new rules), the odds of it finding its way into my deck simply aren't good. The second reason is that it gives my opponent one more soul to rescue, which reduces the possibility of effective mid-to-end-game soul drought, which is a big deal in speed vs. speed, or on the rare occasion I play a balanced deck.
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wait how is 2 liner suddenly dead? It's still an auto block with burial. If anything it's even better now
I dont think the 2 liner is dead, I will probably still be using it in my decks, but just not as good without me playing my SOG on shuffler to make the 2 lines both be shuffled back, but burial plus 2 lines is still a good combo. But let me just add, many people wont be using burial anymore either...
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I think 2-liner is still useful in most decks. People who don't use GoYS essentially have to wait to rescue the other half with SoG/NJ until they can get 5. Even Lampstand can be thwarted by Fortify Site, Iron Pan, Casting Lots, etc.
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Are you all insane? Shuffler just became the best LS in the game. Ask the Wraith.
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Are you all insane? Shuffler just became the best LS in the game. Ask the Wraith.
Why?
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Are you all insane? Shuffler just became the best LS in the game. Ask the Wraith.
If you're talking about the strategy I think you are, I don't think it's reliable enough to build a deck around.
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Build a deck around it? It's useful even when you're not totally focused or reliant on it.
Don't listen to Westy though. He's trying to convince me that a monoblue disciples deck is good.
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Build a deck around it? It's useful even when you're not totally focused or reliant on it.
Don't listen to Westy though. He's trying to convince me that a monoblue disciples deck is good.
To really utilize it well enough to even be worth paying attention to, you do have to make some major decisions in your defense that, without focus on that strategy, will keep a deck from being as effective as it otherwise could be.
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Really, it's about 2 or 3 cards that wouldn't be worth using otherwise. That's quite a bit, but it isn't something insurmountable.
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It's actually a fairly easy splash that fits perfectly with a mono-blue disciples deck. You guys are going to get rocked at nats.
Just a Hireling, SSS, and DoU are the way to go. Shuffler's still nice when you don't care if your opponent gets a block, as it can soul drought some more.
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It's actually a fairly easy splash that fits perfectly with a mono-blue disciples deck. You guys are going to get rocked at nats.
Just a Hireling, SSS, and DoU are the way to go. Shuffler's still nice when you don't care if your opponent gets a block, as it can soul drought some more.
Once they see this deck at Nats they are going to regret making that decision.
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Word to the wise from the not so wise:
If you want something to surprise everyone at Nats, you can't hype it up :)
On that, I can see you being a stereotypical home-run hitter. When your pitch is there, BAM!. Otherwise you'll just make a lot of breeze :D
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Word to the wise from the not so wise:
If you want something to surprise everyone at Nats, you can't hype it up :)
On that, I can see you being a stereotypical home-run hitter. When your pitch is there, BAM!. Otherwise you'll just make a lot of breeze :D
Everybody will be surprised it works.
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Everybody will be surprised it works.
Regardless of how well it ends up working, no one will be surprised if you keep talking about it :)
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Everyone will be too busy being surprised at RDT using Angry Mob version 2, right before he's stripped of his elder status.
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@ Wraith. Is this something I can find by searching or are you just dropping clues?
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Just saying, but anything that can shuffle a revealer is good in my book, get to use the revealer as many times as possible
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Just saying, but anything that can shuffle a revealer is good in my book, get to use the revealer as many times as possible
Unless Nazereth is out.
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There is always one answer to Nazareth, Assyrian Siege Army, of course he might only be helpful to win the battle if you run an Assyrian defense. But still that can be an answer to old Nazzy
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If the only reason you're using Shuffler is to shuffle Revealer, you're probably doing Lost Souls wrong, especially with the new rules. Furthermore, I don't think Assyrians are good enough to be worth using ASA, and citing ASA as a way to deal with Nazareth isn't that solid.
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I've seen the shuffler included in my opponent's deck and it got him a win a few days ago. He drew out five lost souls including the shuffler on the first turn, I walked in for a gimmie on that first round, and he gave me the shuffler. After that he didn't draw another soul for about three turns, which delayed my offense enough for him to get the win.
Also it's an interesting add for multi-player since if an opponent SoGs it the shuffler can be a block. Sometimes it can come back to bite you but often times it's extremely helpful.
Then of course there's the 2/3-liner, the revealer, the same lost soul, and others that can be manipulated via the shuffle.
Yet for all that the shuffler has going for it, I still feel there are better adds. So I'm probably not going to be using the shuffler anymore, except maybe in multi, where I like to use the 3-liner.
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On the defensive end, you could always rescue your opponents shuffler with SOG. I have always found that to be fun when I can't block.
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Well I wasn't saying that the shuffler was only for shuffling the revealer. And there are many good things about an assyrian defense in my opinion. I was just listing the revealer as one reason why a shuffler could still come in handy. In my opinion there are not a whole lot of lost souls that are a must have in decks. In my opinion I think with the dominant cap and people using a lampstand to replace things like guardian of your souls. I would guess the anti burial would go before the shuffler would.
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On the defensive end, you could always rescue your opponents shuffler with SOG. I have always found that to be fun when I can't block.
Which is why nobody uses it in their deck.
However, you can use Nebbyshash or Prisoner Transfer to get it over there.
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On the defensive end, you could always rescue your opponents shuffler with SOG. I have always found that to be fun when I can't block.
This is exactly why I won't use Shuffler in my deck. For all the possible benefits it has, this is first and foremost my fear, and I'd rather add a Lost Soul with less possible benefit, but a lot less risk.
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I agree with Wraith and Chronic for the most part. All the potential benefits are blasted away by the fact that your opponent can get a block from it.
Still, in multi-player I think that this is a beneficial property since someone playing SoG of the shuffler can save the game. The downside to that is that they could be saving the game against you of course... This is mitigated however, by the fact that there are more people in the game than just two.
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I agree with Wraith and Chronic for the most part. All the potential benefits are blasted away by the fact that your opponent can get a block from it.
Still, in multi-player I think that this is a beneficial property since someone playing SoG of the shuffler can save the game. The downside to that is that they could be saving the game against you of course... This is mitigated however, by the fact that there are more people in the game than just two.
I go all out offense in multiplayer and play with Thorns (and the 6 good dominants + Mayhem).
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I don't (not with my current deck at least). But for a deck that does go all out offense I wouldn't use shuffler, since more often than not people will be using shuffler against you.
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I agree with Wraith and Chronic for the most part. All the potential benefits are blasted away by the fact that your opponent can get a block from it.
Still, in multi-player I think that this is a beneficial property since someone playing SoG of the shuffler can save the game. The downside to that is that they could be saving the game against you of course... This is mitigated however, by the fact that there are more people in the game than just two.
I go all out offense in multiplayer and play with Thorns (and the 6 good dominants + Mayhem).
What's the sixth "good dominant" exactly? I only consider SoG, NJ, CM, AotL, and Grapes staples.
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SoG, NJ, AotL, Grapes, GoYS, Harvest time. Those are probably the 6 he's talking about.
Wraith, if you have room, I would drop Guardian and add Lampy to make room for CM.
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SoG, NJ, AotL, Grapes, GoYS, Harvest time. Those are probably the 6 he's talking about.
No he's obviously using Glory of the Lord ::)
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SoG, NJ, AotL, Grapes, GoYS, Harvest time. Those are probably the 6 he's talking about.
Wraith, if you have room, I would drop Guardian and add Lampy to make room for CM.
Banding is too popular. My next add would be DoN.
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SoG, NJ, AotL, Grapes, GoYS, Harvest time. Those are probably the 6 he's talking about.
Wraith, if you have room, I would drop Guardian and add Lampy to make room for CM.
Banding is too popular. My next add would be DoN.
It's popular, but there are still many scenarios in which to use it. I'd argue that if you take out CM, you shouldn't use KoT either.
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I would still go with CM because your DoN would be messed up by having lampy.
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In an all out offense, I'd drop Grapes for DoN. Grapes is not as useful for all offense and DoN can counter problems for your offense.
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I'm not sure about Grapes either, I think it depends on what everyone else decides. Legitimately, the only things that have a good chance of blocking you are Uzzah (grapes doesn't help) and anything in the early game (you probably won't have Grapes).
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I'm not sure about Grapes either, I think it depends on what everyone else decides. Legitimately, the only things that have a good chance of blocking you are Uzzah (grapes doesn't help) and anything in the early game (you probably won't have Grapes).
Grapes also works on defense though, especially if you're behind by a soul or two. It's so versatile I think it will always be in my decks.
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Except that Wraith is using no defense... So grapes can be dropped.
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Except that Wraith is using no defense... So grapes can be dropped.
It's multiplayer. I can use it on somebody else's Sabbath Breaker.
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OK that's true, I didn't consider that. So yeah, in that case leave grapes.
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So after hearing most of your comments, its sounding like shuffler is moslty "Dead N Gone". Now, which lost soul replaces the shuffler?
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So after hearing most of your comments, its sounding like shuffler is moslty "Dead N Gone". Now, which lost soul replaces the shuffler?
*/4 or FBTN.
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The */4 without a doubt, since it can't be targeted by Sog/NJ.
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The */4 without a doubt, since it can't be targeted by Sog/NJ.
You make a really good point, so now the seven main lost souls are:
Revealer, NT only( cant be rescued by SOG/NJ), */4
What other four lost souls should still be in decks? Have newer lost souls replaced the exchanger?
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Definitely Exchanger if you are using OT males. First round protect is still good. And I think "shuffle a NT LS" and "If Opp plays a Dom" are still good. Anti-Burial is another good NT lost soul, but there is a concern that people may not be using Burial in their decks anymore. The FBTN lost soul will become more popular now, but understand that he would negate your own lost souls too.
Yeah, I still like Exchanger, but Im not sure about the FBTN soul, it negates the NT and */4 so SOG and NJ can be played on them.
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A speed deck that isn't NT, I'd say would like this:
FBTN
NT Only
Female Only
Revealer
2-Liner (if you have way to reset/get fid of it like DoU, Burial, ect.)
Wanderer
The 7th one is up in the air. It could */4 or First Round Protect or the Anti-Dom.
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Just saying, but anything that can shuffle a revealer is good in my book, get to use the revealer as many times as possible
I really don't understand why everybody thinks revealer is so great. I've never used it for four years
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The revealer is very important with the new rules in place becasue it has the potential to bring out a lost soul for you to rescue.
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Just saying, but anything that can shuffle a revealer is good in my book, get to use the revealer as many times as possible
I really don't understand why everybody thinks revealer is so great. I've never used it for four years
Revealer can win games if it hits cards that are crucial to a deck. I recently won a game against Pol because in the first couple turns, I used Revealer to put his Son of God at the bottom. It's not the best ability in the game, but considering the other options, it tends to be a better call. Plus, as Wings of Music mentioned, it can fish Lost Souls out.
I disagree with anyone who says the FBTN Lost Soul isn't great. I'm talking exclusively for OT Male-based offenses, but it's pretty much required with the new rescue rule.
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I agree with Chronic. I've hit numerous FAs, GoYs, TSAs, and many more great cards with the Revealer. The FBTN LS is really good too.
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Steffer, is there a reason you lately seem to be multi-posting a lot? There are edit buttons on posts for a reason....
On-topic: I definitely still see a use for Shuffler as another way of getting rid of a half-rescued Souls card, but it's lost a lot of strategic value with the new rescue rule.
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Steffer, is there a reason you lately seem to be multi-posting a lot? There are edit buttons on posts for a reason....
On-topic: I definitely still see a use for Shuffler as another way of getting rid of a half-rescued Souls card, but it's lost a lot of strategic value with the new rescue rule.
No, no reason. Thanks for asking though :)
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First of all, taking out good cards with revealer is all random
You could take out your opponents 2 worst cards for him to draw his sog next turn, so you can't say that it helped you to win a game because it is all random
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Just saying, but anything that can shuffle a revealer is good in my book, get to use the revealer as many times as possible
I really don't understand why everybody thinks revealer is so great. I've never used it for four years
Revealer can win games if it hits cards that are crucial to a deck. I recently won a game against Pol because in the first couple turns, I used Revealer to put his Son of God at the bottom. It's not the best ability in the game, but considering the other options, it tends to be a better call. Plus, as Wings of Music mentioned, it can fish Lost Souls out.
I disagree with anyone who says the FBTN Lost Soul isn't great. I'm talking exclusively for OT Male-based offenses, but it's pretty much required with the new rescue rule.
I agree that there is a need to negate lost souls of OT Male offenses, but I'm not convinced that the FBTN lost soul is always the way to do it. There are alternatives, (e.g. Isiah's Call negates lost souls SAs) By not using the FBTN lost soul you allow more SAs to work on your other lost souls and you get to add in an extra defensive soul. So I think there is definitely reason to drop the FBTN in some cases if you have an alternative way to negate souls. If however you are using something like Sam or Red warriors I think that the FBTN soul is a must since it's the only way they have to negate lost soul SAs.
First of all, taking out good cards with revealer is all random
You could take out your opponents 2 worst cards for him to draw his sog next turn, so you can't say that it helped you to win a game because it is all random
True but what I said about helping get lost souls out still applies.
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True but what I said about helping get lost souls out still applies.
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you are right and i might add it to my deck, Also is FBTN the lost soul that negates special abilitys on lost souls
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True but what I said about helping get lost souls out still applies.
you are right and i might add it to my deck, Also is FBTN the lost soul that negates special abilitys on lost souls
[/quote]Yep the FBTN LS is the LS that negates other lost souls. And yes, the Revealer is totally random but it can definantly pay off, what if SOG or a key card is there? Plus I think it will be more used because if a LS is revealed, then more lost souls will be put out in opponents territory.
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okay, well thanks for the help
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First of all, taking out good cards with revealer is all random
You could take out your opponents 2 worst cards for him to draw his sog next turn, so you can't say that it helped you to win a game because it is all random
I absolutely can say that. If I hit an opponent's Son of God with Revealer and I win 5-3 while they have New Jerusalem in their hand, then I can absolutely say that putting Son of God on the bottom helped me win the game because it did. Just because it's random doesn't change the fact that it helped me.
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First of all, taking out good cards with revealer is all random
You could take out your opponents 2 worst cards for him to draw his sog next turn, so you can't say that it helped you to win a game because it is all random
I absolutely can say that. If I hit an opponent's Son of God with Revealer and I win 5-3 while they have New Jerusalem in their hand, then I can absolutely say that putting Son of God on the bottom helped me win the game because it did. Just because it's random doesn't change the fact that it helped me.
But what is less discernable though are those games where the revealer moved a card closer to the top that won them the game. Maybe it was their DON to get rid of Unholy Writ for their last rescue attempt. Maybe it was Falling Away, to play on your 2 liner, and then bury it. Maybe it was SOG or NJ, which they then won the game with. Or Angel of the Lord to use for their last rescue attempt. Or Burial to stall for that one more crucial turn. Etc, etc, etc. We all remember the cool cards we put on the bottom of decks, but how many games do we keep track of when we won or lost because of a card that the person drew on the turn after your revealer removed their top two cards? We just don't think along these lines.
Don't get me wrong, I think Revealer is great, but not necessarily for the randomness of what it puts on the bottom of the deck. It is useful because it is a NT lost soul (for use with another popular lost soul), is a lost soul generator, and (to a much lesser extent) sometimes reveals things about an opponent's deck strategy at the start of the game.
On a side note, because of cards like Revealer, I always liked my fast decks to also have search cards in them, like Birth Foretold.
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Grapes also works on defense though, especially if you're behind by a soul or two. It's so versatile I think it will always be in my decks.
This is about CM vs Grapes. CM is far better on defense. It isn't conditional on two things (soul count and having others block. Remember, this is multi). Really, it's going to rarely be used offensively, so if we're judging them by defensive merits only, CM is far better than grapes.
Grapes is not a very good card. I know RDT doesn't use it and I've had trouble convincing myself to use it in the past.
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Grapes also works on defense though, especially if you're behind by a soul or two. It's so versatile I think it will always be in my decks.
This is about CM vs Grapes. CM is far better on defense. It isn't conditional on two things (soul count and having others block. Remember, this is multi). Really, it's going to rarely be used offensively, so if we're judging them by defensive merits only, CM is far better than grapes.
Grapes is not a very good card. I know RDT doesn't use it and I've had trouble convincing myself to use it in the past.
Disagree with pretty much everything in this post. Christian Martyr is right about useless in the late game when a lot of banding is going on. It's also right about useless against NT offenses who use Herod's Temple. Beyond that, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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I totally agree with stefferweffer
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First of all, taking out good cards with revealer is all random
You could take out your opponents 2 worst cards for him to draw his sog next turn, so you can't say that it helped you to win a game because it is all random
I absolutely can say that. If I hit an opponent's Son of God with Revealer and I win 5-3 while they have New Jerusalem in their hand, then I can absolutely say that putting Son of God on the bottom helped me win the game because it did. Just because it's random doesn't change the fact that it helped me.
But what is less discernable though are those games where the revealer moved a card closer to the top that won them the game. Maybe it was their DON to get rid of Unholy Writ for their last rescue attempt. Maybe it was Falling Away, to play on your 2 liner, and then bury it. Maybe it was SOG or NJ, which they then won the game with. Or Angel of the Lord to use for their last rescue attempt. Or Burial to stall for that one more crucial turn. Etc, etc, etc. We all remember the cool cards we put on the bottom of decks, but how many games do we keep track of when we won or lost because of a card that the person drew on the turn after your revealer removed their top two cards? We just don't think along these lines.
Don't get me wrong, I think Revealer is great, but not necessarily for the randomness of what it puts on the bottom of the deck. It is useful because it is a NT lost soul (for use with another popular lost soul), is a lost soul generator, and (to a much lesser extent) sometimes reveals things about an opponent's deck strategy at the start of the game.
On a side note, because of cards like Revealer, I always liked my fast decks to also have search cards in them, like Birth Foretold.
In fact I'd say the putting top two cards on the bottom actually has a slightly higher chance of helping your opponent than hurting them, because there are several cards that work with the bottom card of deck, and your opponent chooses what goes on the very bottom. Revealer is mostly useful because of the soul generation.
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Grapes also works on defense though, especially if you're behind by a soul or two. It's so versatile I think it will always be in my decks.
This is about CM vs Grapes. CM is far better on defense. It isn't conditional on two things (soul count and having others block. Remember, this is multi). Really, it's going to rarely be used offensively, so if we're judging them by defensive merits only, CM is far better than grapes.
Grapes is not a very good card. I know RDT doesn't use it and I've had trouble convincing myself to use it in the past.
Disagree with pretty much everything in this post. Christian Martyr is right about useless in the late game when a lot of banding is going on. It's also right about useless against NT offenses who use Herod's Temple. Beyond that, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
This isnt suppose to be about CM or Doms... But now that were talking about this, CM is still good. What if its just a two band chain? Then you CM one and then block the other.
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In fact I'd say the putting top two cards on the bottom actually has a slightly higher chance of helping your opponent than hurting them, because there are several cards that work with the bottom card of deck, and your opponent chooses what goes on the very bottom. Revealer is mostly useful because of the soul generation.
Exactly. In a recent game, my opponent's revealer put Gomer and a demon on the bottom of deck. I used Gates of Hell to immediately bring out the demon and when I blocked, I banded to their Egyptian Magician to get out Gomer for more banding. A free D2 for me.
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In fact I'd say the putting top two cards on the bottom actually has a slightly higher chance of helping your opponent than hurting them, because there are several cards that work with the bottom card of deck, and your opponent chooses what goes on the very bottom. Revealer is mostly useful because of the soul generation.
Exactly. In a recent game, my opponent's revealer put Gomer and a demon on the bottom of deck. I used Gates of Hell to immediately bring out the demon and when I blocked, I banded to their Egyptian Magician to get out Gomer for more banding. A free D2 for me.
Nice. And what if your opponent is using a heroless, Zeb, Job, AUTO, Joseph, or Isaiah deck? With Revealer, you could put some pretty key cards on the bottom of their deck!
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Who cares if it does that? I mean even if he does put two easy to get out cards on the bottom it just increases the odds of him getting a lost soul, which is the whole point of having the revealer in your deck. I contend that despite the odds of helping your opponent (which are offset for the most part by the chance of putting something that hurts him below deck) are outweighed by the chance of getting a lost soul out.
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Who cares if it does that? I mean even if he does put two easy to get out cards on the bottom it just increases the odds of him getting a lost soul, which is the whole point of having the revealer in your deck. I contend that despite the odds of helping your opponent (which are offset for the most part by the chance of putting something that hurts him below deck) are outweighed by the chance of getting a lost soul out.
True.