Author Topic: Draw vs Look and Take  (Read 1283 times)

Offline Bobbert

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Draw vs Look and Take
« on: October 24, 2019, 10:53:00 AM »
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Several cards in the last few sets allow you to look at cards from the top of your deck and take some number of them. My question is, how do you value this against straight drawing? Or, perhaps a better question: given the choice between "Draw X" and "Look at top Y cards and take one" what values of X and Y put both abilities at about the same power level? Is it better for the remaining Y-1 cards to go on top or bottom of deck?

Redemption tends to be very much about gaining card advantage, since there isn't usually a cost associated with playing cards and having more resources than your opponent helps you get and stay ahead. That said, when given the option it's almost always better to search for one card you need than to draw two that may or may not be what you're looking for.

Here's my take: as someone who's played a lot of Flood the last couple years, I've fallen a bit in love with Japheth. He often gets to be "look at top 8, take one, underdeck the rest" thanks to how quickly Noah gets the Flood Survivors out. Flood tends to be a very fast deck, and Japheth is a significant part of that, despite only actually gaining you one card per turn. Eight cards is a lot, and he often finds exactly what you're looking for once he gets rolling - and if not, you're eight cards closer to it for your next draw (or next turn's Japheth).
The underdeck is a double-edged sword. It helps a LOT with getting to what you're looking for - again, clearing eight cards out of the way when you're digging for a SoG on the bottom of your deck is significant - and he excels at hiding Lost Souls. That said, eight cards is indeed a lot, and sometimes you're forced to underdeck a card that you really wanted even though it's not as important as the one you took.

I think I'd generally value a "look at top 3, take 1" as approximately equal to a "draw 2", and despite how painful it can sometimes be I think that underdecking the rest is usually better than topdecking. Knowing what your next draw will be can help you plan, but I think that often if you're digging for something you simply take that if it shows up and want to be closer to it if it doesn't. I'm not sure exactly how I think this scales - Japheth's "look at 8 take 1 underdeck" is probably equal to a draw 3 in my books - but maybe it's somewhere between 3 and 4.

Some other cards make it even harder by gaining you more than one. Vain Visions can in theory effectively be a straight "draw 6", even though it's a Look and Take ability. Others can whiff completely - Mighty Warrior just puts all his cards back on top if he doesn't find a OT red or Isaiah card. Og does both. How do you value these?

I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks. It's an interesting point of discussion, and one that seems to be showing up fairly regularly in the last few sets. How do you evaluate these kinds of value generators?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Draw vs Look and Take
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 05:53:39 PM »
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Susanna from TeP is still one of my favorite cards! I'm glad the game has more cards with that type of ability.

Your assessment of the power level of these feels pretty spot on. Since draw abilities as so much more common there are a lot of counters to draw. Look and take has virtually no counters. When given a choice between the two I'll go with the "look + take".
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Draw vs Look and Take
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2019, 07:12:51 PM »
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Agree. Joseph’s silver cup has come in clutch so many times. My two favorite speed cards are every tribe and JSC. Being able to get what you want when you need it is better than just rushing though your deck, hoping to get what you need, imo.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Draw vs Look and Take
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 01:57:49 AM »
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I've been playing a deck that doesn't really use a lot of "Look at X and take 1" or "Draw Y" right now (I have two of three cards with a draw ability and sevenish cards that look at or reveal the top X cards and allow me to take one), so my recent experience is interesting. I would say that in my deck I usually prefer to keep the cards on top, just because the information is usually more valuable than getting a couple of cards deeper into the deck at that moment. Then again, I'm playing a somewhat less than normal deck, as three of those cards that reveal cards and let me take 1 are Foretelling Angel that puts the "reveal" as an always on and the "Take a Daniel Card" and "At any time" so my recent experience isn't the best to go for.

I do want to say one thing, I don't think it's right to think of the underdecking cards as a way to hide souls (unless it's one of the cards that can topdeck or underdeck each card separately), while at any time whether you can "Hide" a soul may or may not benefit you, you can't control when you get a soul and you have just as much chance of clearing out cards so you'll draw a soul next turn anyway, if you look at six cards and there aren't lost souls and you have to underdeck them, you're six cards closer to a lost soul and would have been better of keeping them on top (at least for the purpose of denying your opponent access to a soul).

I would also say, even ignoring draw counters, you're probably right that revealing 3 and taking 1 is better than drawing 2 (assuming you can take a card you want), but I'm not sure at what X revealing X and taking 1 is better than drawing 3.
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