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Redemption Game Health Discussion and Solutions

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Sean:
I like # 2 but not #1.

I don't like #1 because it forces a ban of a card that would otherwise not be ban worthy (unless it is, but I don't feel like it is). I feel like it makes more sense to ban the cards like Numerous, Denarius, Four-Drachma, etc... that make it so easy to draw 10% or more of your deck in one phase (let alone 1 turn). These cards create the same disproportional card advantage on later turns/rounds as they do on first turn. Granted, the impact of first turn is definitely greater than later turns.

I still feel like strategic card bans/rotation is the way to go and would make #2 unnecessary even though I think it would also work.

agurthewise:
I would like either of these more than the current state, but overall I dont feel they go far enough.

Its funny about what people view as Redemption-Feel. I feel like Choke-hold (Limit - 1 TC enh per phase) or Schaeffer Solution are the most Redemption-Feel solutions.

From my background in the early years playing casually in late 90s the game was really all about the battle phase, the era before TC cards only a few cards were ever played outside of combat.

Its why I love chokehold or the S solution. The 2 solutions you mentioned definitely could hinder speed and solo play, but at the end of the day they will still be very viable. Again this is a lot of feelings and opinions, I cant claim objective truth here, just giving my 2 cents.

CtheTree:
I appreciate all the discussions happening regarding the health of the game and respect those who have contributed their thoughts. Josh P, Jay C, John H, and Jared S in particular are some of the finest minds in the game. I do think something needs to change but personally I would vouch for a more conservative approach. I have said already and will repeat: the rules of Redemption have gone under more changes in the past year and few months than had happened in many years before it. This past year has seen the implementation of Rotation, the Reserve rule, the new rule on determining who goes first, and the rule limiting ability activations to four per turn. Many seem to feel these changes are not enough and the game still is not at a healthy spot. I hear terms like "Solitaire" being used to describe game play that occurs at the top levels. All that to say I do not believe the culprit is the current set up of the rules but rather a few specific cards that enable bonkers amounts of speed. I truly believe if Numerous as the Stars is banned, Star of Bethlehem is banned, High Places is banned, and Denarius is banned we arrive at a place in the game where there is far more balance due to the already implemented rule changes. Bottom line: when a card is able to net more than four cards in one fell swoop that is super powerful. This is why Mayhem has been and continues to be such a good card. That being said Mayhem is capped at 6 and often does not get there due to cards being in hand you do not want to burn. Numerous as the Stars, Star of Bethlehem, and The First Combo net 5+ cards with ease on a regular basis. If one of these is dealt with the other becomes the dominant speed engine in the meta. I believe if these three bonkers speed engines are dealt with we arrive at a spot in the game where there is far more balance.

The reason is without these ways of generating huge card advantage you are left with Mayhem, 4DC, and then tutors that get one card. You can have a TC heavy deck but the result is something like my Once Upon a Time in Zion build that is in reality a glass cannon. It does not run many counters and has no defense. It becomes much harder to both lock down the board and generate a strong rescue suite together when you do not have absurd ways to get 5+ cards in one fell swoop. Pair that with the rise of Salty and running a TC heavy deck becomes far more risky. The reason TC heavy strategies have been so strong for a while is they get you to a way to multiple ways to generate 5+ cards with ease and blitz through your deck. If Numerous, Star of Bethlehem, and The First Combo are eliminated there is no way in the game to net more than 6 cards in one fell swoop. Mayhem becomes the card that can net the most card advantage and then 4DC behind it. 4DC requires Peter being in play and therefore is much more situational. Mayhem is a fantastic card but it has proven in years past to be balanced and not to shift the game too far in the advantage of the user as it also resets the opponents hand giving them a chance to get resources. This is particularly risky against a Salty deck for instance. I do advocate for Denarius being banned since it has become the new Endless Treasures and works on its own without needing other cards to draw. Matthew is strong but limiting brigade count and cards like Crowds LS do hurt him a fair amount. I have spent many hours deck building and playing the game since August of this year post-Nationals. I really do believe the existing rule changes made in the last year are enough and we just need to ban some busted cards that create excessive card advantage. Once that is done the game I truly believe will be in a wonderful spot.

Red:

--- Quote from: Sean on November 30, 2022, 12:18:18 PM ---I like # 2 but not #1.

I don't like #1 because it forces a ban of a card that would otherwise not be ban worthy (unless it is, but I don't feel like it is). I feel like it makes more sense to ban the cards like Numerous, Denarius, Four-Drachma, etc... that make it so easy to draw 10% or more of your deck in one phase (let alone 1 turn). These cards create the same disproportional card advantage on later turns/rounds as they do on first turn. Granted, the impact of first turn is definitely greater than later turns.

I still feel like strategic card bans/rotation is the way to go and would make #2 unnecessary even though I think it would also work.

--- End quote ---
Delivered is unilaterally the most broken consistency card in the game and it in-and-of itself does more to contribute to the current game state than either 4dcoin or denarius. Furthermore, it makes no sense to weave 4 different artifact activations through the prep phase and those activations fuel oppressive game states.

Sean:
I just had another idea that I've not heard previously.

New rule: Any cards drawn during the preparation phase may not be played from hand in that same preparation phase.

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