Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Reth on October 14, 2018, 10:28:10 AM
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Thanks a lot guys for all that great new stuff! Faith also is a great card and a Promo to head for.
One general thing (not particular relevant for this thread - but also not mislocated here):
Yesterday I played starters with a friend and it became obvious to me again that we urgently need new starter decks! Of course the current starters are teaching the game basics and most of the mechanics but beginning with CoW and everything that came afterwards the distance between these old starters and the current cards is far too big, above all if thinking on all the new mechanics and card types (cloud symbol, reserve, star - cities, DAEs, DACs and whatsoever).
Honestly I do not have any clue how to close or lower this gap while still being able to easily get into the game. :(
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Thanks a lot guys for all that great new stuff! Faith also is a great card and a Promo to head for.
One general thing (not particular relevant for this thread - but also not mislocated here):
Yesterday I played starters with a friend and it became obvious to me again that we urgently need new starter decks! Of course the current starters are teaching the game basics and most of the mechanics but beginning with CoW and everything that came afterwards the distance between these old starters and the current cards is far too big, above all if thinking on all the new mechanics and card types (cloud symbol, reserve, star - cities, DAEs, DACs and whatsoever).
Honestly I do not have any clue how to close or lower this gap while still being able to easily get into the game. :(
This is why I created Custom Construct decks! The current Contender decks introduce all sorts of abilities, modifiers, and card types while keeping the deck simple enough for a newer player to be able to handle. I’m also about to release the Challenger decks, which are a boosted form of the starter decks that add in new card types, the CBN modifier and introduce some different special abilities. These are definitely the step up from starter decks. You can view the current Contender decks at the below link. Keep an eye out for the Challenger decks coming very soon!
https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/contender-decks (https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/contender-decks)
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This is why I created Custom Construct decks! The current Contender decks introduce all sorts of abilities, modifiers, and card types while keeping the deck simple enough for a newer player to be able to handle. I’m also about to release the Challenger decks, which are a boosted form of the starter decks that add in new card types, the CBN modifier and introduce some different special abilities. These are definitely the step up from starter decks. You can view the current Contender decks at the below link. Keep an eye out for the Challenger decks coming very soon!
https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/contender-decks (https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/contender-decks)
I know - I already checked them on your web site. Maybe decks like those can become the next official starters?
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I know - I already checked them on your web site. Maybe decks like those can become the next official starters?
There are no plans to print starters in the near future. I don't quite understand why they are needed when their are products that meet your request already available on the secondary market. Why do they need to be "official"?
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There are no plans to print starters in the near future. I don't quite understand why they are needed when their are products that meet your request already available on the secondary market. Why do they need to be "official"?
IMHO it is always better to have something official available "approved from the authorities".
In addition (which is maybe special for us here): Starters, Gift Sets and some of the boosters are the only products also available here in Germany (e.g. via several bookstores and shops like Amazon etc.) - hence more easy available with sometimes faster shipping.
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There are no plans to print starters in the near future. I don't quite understand why they are needed when their are products that meet your request already available on the secondary market. Why do they need to be "official"?
Because only Cactus can reprint cards for the express purpose of reintroducing them to the game with the new format, erratas, updated wording, different versions, etc, in a quality that is as close to guaranteed mint as you can get, for a reasonable price. There are so many advantages to doing this "officially" that the secondary market simply cannot offer.
Also, there is the fact that new starter decks will support Cactus and Redemption directly. You keep I/J for beginners, then release a set of 2-6 "advanced starters", for players who want more of a challenge or want more competitive cards right out the gate. Why would anyone not want that?
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Because only Cactus can reprint cards for the express purpose of reintroducing them to the game with the new format, erratas, updated wording, different versions, etc, in a quality that is as close to guaranteed mint as you can get, for a reasonable price. There are so many advantages to doing this "officially" that the secondary market simply cannot offer.
Also, there is the fact that new starter decks will support Cactus and Redemption directly. You keep I/J for beginners, then release a set of 2-6 "advanced starters", for players who want more of a challenge or want more competitive cards right out the gate. Why would anyone not want that?
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: +1 Fully agreed!
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You keep I/J for beginners, then release a set of 2-6 "advanced starters", for players who want more of a challenge or want more competitive cards right out the gate. Why would anyone not want that?
A thousand times this. I/J simply do not exemplify Redemption gameplay. In the process of making them simple in order to teach the game they lost a lot of what makes the game fun. Between two new players the game is almost entirely determined by luck of the draw since most of the decisions that can change the outcome of a I/J game are macro level like deciding whether to try and hold your speed cards to maintain a drought or play them all and dig for battle winners. Almost every time I've taught someone to play with I/J they seem pretty bored once they grasp the basic rules and are much more interesting in the game after I show them real decks.
The reason officially published starters and more important than homemade ones is because official decks are often Redemption's first foot forward to potential new players. Those players deserve an authentic Redemption experience.
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
Maybe $14.99 MSRP?
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
Honestly I’m not sure they are ‘needed’, but to me their value would be based on the quality of cards they contain. If they contain new cards on the power level of UR’s, I could easily see spending $30-$50 or more depending on how many strong cards they contain, I mean I already spend that to get a single card sometimes! The only problem with this is, if the purpose of such an expansion is to be a ‘starter’ a high price point will likely turn new players away from purchasing them and thus defeat the point.
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
I won't pretend to know what the cost is, but these hypothetical new starters (structure decks) must:
A- be cheaper than any already existing secondary option
B- offer cards exclusive to the starter decks that are enticing enough to warrant purchase from players who already have extensive collections
C- are reasonably competitive in their own right, while at the same time encouraging purchasing packs to open cards that supplement said decks
If I'm guessing, I could see these decks being probably about $25-35 apiece, or $50-60 per two. Again, I don't know what the price would really amount to, but I consider that to be 'reasonable' for a deck that acts as a foundation rather than a teaching tool.
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Yep, sorry for starting this discussion here in this thread. If it continues appropriate posts should better be moved into their own new thread.
Edited to explain this post: This thread and this particular post originated from the PROPHECIES OF CHRIST (Spoiler thread) (http://www.cactusforums.com/card-information/prophecies-of-christ-(spoiler-thread)/)
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
If they're significantly more expensive that would be unfortunate for sealed but the sealed experience is still ok with I/J (though it would be even better with complex decks) and these new ones could be "advanced" starter decks and just used for introducing new players so sealed prices don't jump.
As long as the decks are made out of mostly new cards I'd definitely be willing to pay more than I/J cost. This could also be an opportunity to reprint some cards for set rotation purposes since I assume if the new decks came they would come around the same time as that.
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
If they're significantly more expensive that would be unfortunate for sealed but the sealed experience is still ok with I/J (though it would be even better with complex decks) and these new ones could be "advanced" starter decks and just used for introducing new players so sealed prices don't jump.
As long as the decks are made out of mostly new cards I'd definitely be willing to pay more than I/J cost. This could also be an opportunity to reprint some cards for set rotation purposes since I assume if the new decks came they would come around the same time as that.
Looking at similar POD runs for other games, the printing cost would be approximately double the retail cost of the I/J starter. That is the printing+shipping cost new pair of "starter" decks would run about $25. To that you would need to add in packaging costs plus a bit of profit for Cactus.
Just trying to get some numbers out there for folks.
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How much are you guys willing to pay for the new starter decks you think we need? With the new print on demand system they cannot be made for anywhere close to the cost of I/J.
If they're significantly more expensive that would be unfortunate for sealed but the sealed experience is still ok with I/J (though it would be even better with complex decks) and these new ones could be "advanced" starter decks and just used for introducing new players so sealed prices don't jump.
As long as the decks are made out of mostly new cards I'd definitely be willing to pay more than I/J cost. This could also be an opportunity to reprint some cards for set rotation purposes since I assume if the new decks came they would come around the same time as that.
Looking at similar POD runs for other games, the printing cost would be approximately double the retail cost of the I/J starter. That is the printing+shipping cost new pair of "starter" decks would run about $25. To that you would need to add in packaging costs plus a bit of profit for Cactus.
Just trying to get some numbers out there for folks.
$25-$35 sounds completely reasonable to me. That's about what MtG duel decks go for and that's roughly the equivalent of this.
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Let's say, as a starting point, each deck is 50 cards with a ten card Reserve. To keep things simple, there would be only two different Reserve possibilities. Deck A would have Reserve 1, Deck B Reserve 2, Deck C Reserve 1, alternate, repeat. For fun, let's see what one potential deck might look like.
To start, let's look at what we could do to set up the common cards for all the decks:
7 LS:
1 no special ability LS (Daniel reference, UR border) * A no-sa LS with actual applications (collect for booster, collect for Daniel decks). And it has a gold border! I know long ago it was once someone's dream to make an all-UR deck. People might scoff, but I think this would drive up the value of the decks. They can have the same art across all decks or different. I prefer different to encourage trading.
1 brand new soul * deck specific, comparable to Darkness or Prosperity soul in power. Probably a theme/brigade interaction with a Reserve tie-in.
5 reprinted souls with new look/wording (Revealer, Shuffler, Pigs, Shame, CBP) * These would be the same in all other decks. Not necessarily these, per se, but I think they are all worthy for beginners while keeping the value of the newer souls.
7 Doms:
SoG * Greek UR border or full art (Deck dependant)
NJ * new card face, clearer wording. Possible new ability?
AotL * Greek UR border or full art (Deck dependant)
Harvest Time * updated (perhaps new) ability, card face
CM
DoN * straight remake of Patriarch's (but with negate & discard wording) in new card face.
FA (w) * As much as it pains me to say, as long as something like NJ and TSC remain, I think something like this has to as well. New card face, maybe new art, clear wording. Maybe some sort of restriction for balancing?
Cards I would put in all decks (exceptions noted):
Covenant of Prayer * with no banish retrieval. That way the original RoJ card is clearly superior, but new players can still have a catch-all Reserve access.
Angel of the Winds * with no Cloud Hero clause. Give players a taste of "getting the Hero you need" kind of cards. This would not go in the Angel deck.
NJ/Bride of Christ * without the Reserve search. Give site access that also supports NJ in the deck. Or this could be something like Dragon Raid (p) or Ends (with a fewer card reveal)
Wall of Protection * new card face, updated ability, possibly full art. Old staple revived.
The Deceiver * without the CBP. Given this should be in just about all decks, having it easily accessible will be great for new players. Losing the CBP will just incentivize people to chase the original.
From there, we can get really creative. Ratios can be determined, but something like 5-7 support cards, 8-9 Heroes, 6-8 GE, undetermined DAC, 7-9 EC, and 5-7 EE. Artifacts, cities, sites, more offense, more defense, balanced; each deck would be different. Solid reserves would have to be worked out as well, with cards like Three Nails, Unholy Writ, Sabbath Breaker, and other catch-all cards filling in the gaps.
In addition, each deck might (read: should) have its own unique set of chase cards. For example, a green prophets deck with a borderless The Watchman/Ezekiel combo and a demon deck with a borderless orange KoT (priests) and Wandering Spirit!
The I/J would look like bare-bones relics compared to these, but would be perfectly functional in teaching the game in its most basic form. This is the way to reintroduce all those old cards into the game, by the way, and would be the perfect opportunity to sever the old cards from the pool without needing Legacy Rares. ;)
Long story short, I think these have boundless potential and would go a long way towards exciting players, old and new!
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I'm not in favor of reprinting cards with the same name and slightly worse abilities at all, but I absolutely agree with everything else.
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I'm not in favor of reprinting cards with the same name and slightly worse abilities at all, but I absolutely agree with everything else.
The way I see it, we don't want people to not buy relevant older packs (TEC onward), but we also don't want people to potentially have two Deceivers in their decks. I want to include good cards, but not at the expense of devaluing those old packs. I am not in favor of including cards from TEC onward with the same abilities. In fact, I am not in favor of including them at all, save for what exceptions I have listed, for those are the most generic, fit-all cards that most competitive decks can run, and most new players might not be able to grab because of the price. There are plenty of older cards that can get love and plenty of possibilities for newer cards, and even later possibly some of the TEC onward cards could be introduced. But not to start. :2cents:
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Here's just a few possibilities to start:
Teal Priests (Solomon or Z's Temple with a new Temple card) with a black (or black/gray) defense (Sadducees or Sadducees/Pharisees). Some cards for defense would probably be reprints of the original 1/3 Sads/Phars, updated Scribe, Tenants Kill the Son, Just a Hireling, a bunch of new cards that are black/gray Sad/Phar-related. Probably a couple Teal/Black cards. Full-art Temple card. Maybe borderless Thirty Pieces of Silver and Zeal for the Lord reprints. Deck focus on quick setup with territory/card protection, sneaky blocks, and strong attacks that remove a lot of evil.
Angels (with a new Heavenly Temple tutor/support Site or City) with an orange demon defense. Offense expands on the Heavenly Temple theme in RoJ (introduce new Arts, etc). A few silver/orange cards, maybe an Angel Warrior/Fallen Angel Hero/EC. Probably include a full-art Gates of Hell along with a borderless TSA and KoT. Deck would focus on maximizing the Gates of Hell discard effectiveness with ways to stow away cards to Reserve and swap when needed, relies mostly on large character bands.
Judges (with a new Judge's Seat) and brown royalty defense (Judah, Israel, pick one). Offense has some reprints (toned-down Judges Angels, Samuel/Samuel's Edict, and such) along with new Judges that punish different actions used by the opponent (one punishes draw, one search, one look, you get it). Defense is stronger if the opponent has done certain actions. Possibly have a full-art AutO and borderless Judge's Seat/Samuel's Edict. Deck focuses on limiting and slowing opponents by presenting a lot of punishing choices.
Red warriors (with a new Stronghold in the Desert City or Fortress card) and Egyptian defense. Red introduces a David's Mighty men theme that focuses on single, super strong attacking heroes that get stronger/do more the more you have, along with deck discard (Warrior's Spear reprint, new Red/Gold cards). Egyptians have a lot of classic reprints and some Enhancements that are in need of reprints (Ruthless, Moses Kills Egyptian, Horses, Begging to Go Back). Full-art Stronghold with a borderless Soldier's Prayer and Pithom City reprint. Focus on deck discard.
Long story short, get on it guys! I'd wager these would do more for the game than another box-style set. Just take a break and roll these out. ;) :angel:
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Red warriors (with a new Stronghold in the Desert City card) and Egyptian defense. Red introduces a David's Mighty men theme that focuses on single, super strong attacking heroes that get stronger/do more the more you have, along with deck discard (Warrior's Spear reprint, new Red/Gold cards). Egyptians have a lot of classic reprints and some Enhancements that are in need of reprints (Ruthless, Mo Kills Egyptian, Horses, Begging to Go Back). Full-art Stronghold with a borderless Soldier's Prayer and Pithom City reprint. Focus on deck discard.
I LOVE the idea of a new Stronghold in the Desert card.
I've actually been toying with the idea of a Red warriors/Black Philistines starter deck in my head for a while now. I tentatively named it "Champions and Underdogs" and the cards would tell the David vs. Goliath story (yes, yes, I know that the offense wouldn't actually face the defense).
It was going to introduce a generic warriors sub-theme in Red, including 3 different versions of David's Band of Misfits (name subject to change) from I Samuel 22:2. (What do you know, these were the guys that hid with David in the Stronghold in the Desert... Hmm.) David and Goliath would be the lynchpins and the powerhouses leading their brigades - the new David would be "David, Young Warrior" and would be only Red. And 10/11.
However, this guy was the hero I was most excited about, providing an engine for the generic OT Red warriors offense and providing much-needed starter deck soul gen:
Recruiting Officer
6/4 Red Warrior, TC
"Reveal the top 4 cards of each deck: Put Lost Souls and Red warriors in play. May band to a generic OT Red warrior. Once per turn, you may withdraw an opposed generic OT Red warrior to draw 1. Cannot be interrupted."
(same verse)
Harvest Time was definitely going to be in the deck, as was Captured Kinsmen.
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I've actually been toying with the idea of a Red warriors/Black Philistines starter deck in my head for a while now. I tentatively named it "Champions and Underdogs" and the cards would tell the David vs. Goliath story (yes, yes, I know that the offense wouldn't actually face the defense).
Harvest Time was definitely going to be in the deck, as was Captured Kinsmen.
There's a Contender Deck for that. ;)
https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/contender-decks/products/davids-mighty-men-philistine-warriors (https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/contender-decks/products/davids-mighty-men-philistine-warriors)
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Thematic starter/constructed type decks are a fantastic idea. What the pre-constructed decks Watchman and I offer can't do is provide old cards on new card faces while introducing new cards to support those themes as well. I would be in full support of something like this happening. Unfortunately in the long term plan for Redemption and the foreseeable future, it is simply not in the cards.
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Thematic starter/constructed type decks are a fantastic idea. What the pre-constructed decks Watchman and I offer can't do is provide old cards on new card faces while introducing new cards to support those themes as well. I would be in full support of something like this happening. Unfortunately in the long term plan for Redemption and the foreseeable future, it is simply not in the cards.
Well, each year it doesn't happen is a year of a considerable missed opportunity, imo. Burn-out is a real thing. Plans can be altered. See: Darth Vader and Lando. ;)
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Maybe we just need to kick starter this to see if we have enough people willing to back that kind of project.
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Thematic starter/constructed type decks are a fantastic idea. What the pre-constructed decks Watchman and I offer can't do is provide old cards on new card faces while introducing new cards to support those themes as well. I would be in full support of something like this happening. Unfortunately in the long term plan for Redemption and the foreseeable future, it is simply not in the cards.
Well, each year it doesn't happen is a year of a considerable missed opportunity, imo. Burn-out is a real thing. Plans can be altered. See: Darth Vader and Lando. ;)
Burnout due to not have a new starter deck? The year we do a starter deck we will likely not release a new set. What is worse?
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Are finances needed, or manpower, or both? Because I'm definitely willing to help, as would many people in the community.
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Thematic starter/constructed type decks are a fantastic idea. What the pre-constructed decks Watchman and I offer can't do is provide old cards on new card faces while introducing new cards to support those themes as well. I would be in full support of something like this happening. Unfortunately in the long term plan for Redemption and the foreseeable future, it is simply not in the cards.
Well, each year it doesn't happen is a year of a considerable missed opportunity, imo. Burn-out is a real thing. Plans can be altered. See: Darth Vader and Lando. ;)
Burnout due to not have a new starter deck? The year we do a starter deck we will likely not release a new set. What is worse?
Burnout after 6-7 sets of the box format. These should be viewed not exclusively as starters, but as a set themselves. Having structured decks like these kills two birds with one year (new set=new starters). Attract new players, satisfy old players. Win-win. 8)
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I am also in favor of combining cards of the newer sets (beginning of CoW) with cards of older/previous sets and releases. This will benefit in several manners: Next to boosters older cards get another sales option, new players will be able to get some of the newer strong cards (next to newer "normal" cards) and all the new mechanics introduced but also old-established players might be such kind of decks instead of some boosters in order to get cards from newer sets. Just my 2 cents.
What do you think regarding that crowdfunding idea: IMHO a poll here might not be reflecting reality since I'd assume majority of players in the US are not active here in the forum. But maybe I'm wrong with this assumption.
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I wish I had noticed this before I posted my question about new starters. I do have some reaction to the thoughts here though.
There will always be a need for beginner decks. Everyone has to start someplace. I have 2 dislikes of the I/J starters, one is that they are 5 years old and the second is that they aren't mono brigade. Other than that, there isn't really anything wrong with I/J in my opinion.
I think it would be ideal to release new starters every 4 years so that the new abilities and such can be incorporated. That being said, it is also very hard to determine how many decks to print because while you don't want to print too many, you also don't want to run out because then new players wouldn't have a quick and easy base from which to start.
I feel like there aren't enough players to make official decks that are more competitive in a cost effective way. There are so many themes, which ones would Cactus choose? What does Cactus do for the players who prefer themes which don't get picked?
Maybe a better idea would be to release a new set that is sold by theme. So a new set might have 10-20 themed packs of 7-10 cards each. Each pack would have 3-4 characters and enhancements and then 1-2 other cards. As with the starters, I think something like this every 4 years would be great.
This leads me to my grand plan for Redemption (since I'm an expert after not playing for almost 10 years)
Sean's Grand Plan
Year 1, print 2 starter decks, 50 cards each, sold together for $12.00. Each deck has 1 new special ability Lost Soul and a reprint of an old special ability Lost Soul iff it was given errata (Lost Souls never printed outside starter decks). Each deck has one 2 color Hero and one 2 color Evil Character. Each deck has 1 card for each new 'feature' since the last starter (i.e. Star Cards). New brigades never introduced in a starter. If a new brigade is introduced it is always included the subsequent starter.
Year 2, print large expansion of close to 200 cards to be sold in booster packs of 10 cards each for $6.00. Uses C/UC/R/UR format.
Year 3, print 15 themed sets of 8 cards each. Sold for $6.00 per set. Sold in strategic pairs for $11.00 after 6 months.
Year 4, print small expansion of about 100 cards to be sold in tins/boxes of 4 new common cards, 1 new rare card, 1 booster from the large expansion from 2 years ago and any special shenanigans. Sold for $12.00. A major focus of this year would be to reprint cards that have errata so that the correct wording can be present for easy game play.
Year 5 begins the repeat process
Getting back to strictly starters, we should skip the letter K and release the LMNO 5th Generation deluxe starter set that has 4 decks, 50 cards each.
Sorry for the long post but I had fun with it.
Sean