Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: JSB23 on August 24, 2008, 01:02:33 AM
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Does anyone else think Lampstand is OP? It destroys an entire class of cards except one.
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An entire class of cards which many people have suggested are OP. It brings balance to the Force.
And really, it only affects three reapers out of five. CM can still be played on Heroes in battle, and you still have to contend with all the good Dominants.
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Yes, but Only one of them is any good and I do not think they are OP. If anything Good dominants are OP.
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And for that we have Altar of Ahaz and several protection cards.
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But AA, dies after one rescue and what protect cards that you can leave up the entire game and kill all good Doms but 1
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AA is easier to get rid of than Lampstand but I think you're underselling it. There are several ways to stall rescues and leave it in play for a while.
And there are also several ways to get rid of Lampstand that I think you're neglecting in your analysis. People casually throw in Destruction much the same way they throw in Dragon Raid, but there are some sneaky ways around that Art.
Lastly, I'm not really in a hurry to stop the use of Guardian or Harvest Time or Glory of the Lord (and I think that's a fair response since you are discounting Doubt). So really we're only talking about stopping:
- Angel of the Lord, which if you have a protect Fort up is the same thing as Lampstand, it's only good in battle
- SoG/NJ, which is covered by Altar of Ahaz, a few LS that can't be rescued by Dominants, and other means of protection.
So really, I think the two Arts come out fairly close to the same, and I'm not very concerned about the good Doms outweighing the bad Doms slightly, because good is supposed to be at least a little stronger than evil. It's thematically correct, and getting points ends the game in a reasonable time.
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Yes, but good is already stronger than evil even without dominants
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Right. So the theme is consistent throughout the different card types. I'm okay with that.
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Also, there are a ton of other cards that can get rid of it without using DON and there are other ways to get rid of LS's without using Burial.
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Also, there are a ton of other cards that can get rid of it without using DON and there are other ways to get rid of LS's without using Burial.
Yes but, you have to have the card, an E.C. to play it on and initiative and if you don't draw the card they can still make three cards that can not be placed in storehouse useless. What other ways that are as good?
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Also, there are a ton of other cards that can get rid of it without using DON and there are other ways to get rid of LS's without using Burial.
Yes but, you have to have the card, an E.C. to play it on and initiative and if you don't draw the card they can still make three cards that can not be placed in storehouse useless. What other ways that are as good?
Capture ark :D
Green hero/New Beginning
Discarding the temple that it's in (most of the time I see it is when they have a temple).
There are other ways of getting rid of it besides using an EC.
A quick and easy way to get rid of it :).
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Also, there are a ton of other cards that can get rid of it without using DON and there are other ways to get rid of LS's without using Burial.
Yes but, you have to have the card, an E.C. to play it on and initiative and if you don't draw the card they can still make three cards that can not be placed in storehouse useless. What other ways that are as good?
Capture ark :D
Green hero/New Beginning
Discarding the temple that it's in (most of the time I see it is when they have a temple).
There are other ways of getting rid of it besides using an EC.
A quick and easy way to get rid of it :).
touché for Captured Ark but they usually have a different Art up they can shuffle and How do I discard the temple without an E.C.? I also have to have initiative to use ANB unless I have hidden treasures, a Three card combo and I lose my evil Doms and they can just use a searcher priest to get Lampstand back out
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Also, there are a ton of other cards that can get rid of it without using DON and there are other ways to get rid of LS's without using Burial.
Yes but, you have to have the card, an E.C. to play it on and initiative and if you don't draw the card they can still make three cards that can not be placed in storehouse useless. What other ways that are as good?
Capture ark :D
Green hero/New Beginning
Discarding the temple that it's in (most of the time I see it is when they have a temple).
There are other ways of getting rid of it besides using an EC.
A quick and easy way to get rid of it :).
touché for Captured Ark but they usually have a different Art up they can shuffle and How do I discard the temple without an E.C.? I also have to have initiative to use ANB unless I have hidden treasures, a Three card combo and I lose my evil Doms and they can just use a searcher priest to get Lampstand back out
I just wanted to point out that there are other ways besides DON to get rid of it.
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Not to mention, your opponent is at the same disadvantage as you are while they keep lampstand active. Also, by your logic, there are a lot of other cards that can make a lot more than 3 of your cards useless...
-Zerubbabel's Temple -makes convert, remove and capture cards useless
-Covenant with Phinehas -makes discard cards useless
-Judas-makes discard and convert cards useless
-household idols-makes good banding cards useless
-Blue Tassels/Obadiah's Caves-makes capture cards useless
-can't be negated characters-make negates useless
-etc.
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good is suppossed to be slightly better than evil? um, NOOOOOOO?
as a theme, sure, it makes sense. good always triumphs, blah blah blah. watch a movie or something. i dont see this as a valid issue either, because no matter what, one of the two players good side will end up winning the game, natch.
but this a GAME that is suppossed to be as balanced as much as possible. lampstand outshines altar of ahaz on almost every conceivable facet, no question about it.
this is why i cry foul on why the game engine is as unbalanced as it currently is. there is a HEAVY bias towards good. hardly any wc demons (while silver is chock full of em), lampstand/alter of ahaz issues, the heavily favored sog/nj/goys vs falling away situation, among many others.
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Good is supposed to be stronger than evil for the two reasons I mentioned: theme, and keeping a standard Type 1 game within a 45-minute time frame.
And you never explained the advantage of wc silver that wc demons are supposed to be missing out on.
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so theres no obvious advantage of an angel carrying a weapon and therefore gaining an additional special ability, versus a demon that is unable to? cactus has taken no serious effort to give demons the same courtesy EVERY SINGLE OTHER BRIGADE currently has. and for what purpose? why?
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AoA is almost on par with Lampstand. IMO, it's probably better, but that's because I am a defensive player.
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so theres no obvious advantage of an angel carrying a weapon and therefore gaining an additional special ability, versus a demon that is unable to?
Are you still unable to explain it to me?
Here are some silver weapons:
- If holder is ever losing the battle by the numbers, holder may discard Captain's Sword to withdraw all Heroes unharmed from battle.
- If Hero defeats a demon, you may remove it from the game.
- If used by a Hero with strength 6/* or lower, Hero is immune to discard abilities on evil enhancements.
- Toughness is equal to the number of evil characters one opponent has in play.
- Holder may discard this card to decrease a demon’s abilities by 5/5 until end of turn.
Explain to me how abilities like these create an imbalance that makes angels much more powerful than demons.
Here are some evil weapons:
- Worth 8/10 if used by a giant. Goliath may retain as a weapon until discarded.
- Evil Character cannot be converted.
- Holder may discard Dart to decrease a Hero in play 6/6 until end of turn.
- Worth 8/4 if used by a giant.
- Evil Character cannot be converted this turn.
- Worth 6/8 if used by a giant.
- Worth 9/3 if used by a warrior class Assyrian
Explain to me how the ability to use these weapons are important to make demons "balanced" with angels.
You can keep dancing around and being coy, or you can give a direct answer to a direct question. In eight days time, you have not done that once. If understanding matters to you, I recommend a different approach.
cactus has taken no serious effort to give demons the same courtesy EVERY SINGLE OTHER BRIGADE currently has.
Why is that necessary? Does teal suffer a disadvantage for being denied the "courtesy" of a female Hero that "every single other brigade" has? Or a fight-by-numbers card?
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Teal has whatever it wants. It's called Holy Grail. :)
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what difference does it make how good the abilities are? YOU can dance around spitting out useless weapon class abilities and i really wont care less. its the PRINCIPLE that every single other brigade has its fair share of warrior/weapon class and demons do not. versatility is a big issue for some in this game, and just having the option to stick weapon class enhancements on a warrior class demon is a step in the right direction.
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Why is that necessary? Does teal suffer a disadvantage for being denied the "courtesy" of a female Hero that "every single other brigade" has? Or a fight-by-numbers card?
like i said before (and that which you did not understand), making teal and orange a brigade to begin with was a huge mistake. do we complain that orange cant have a human to block with?
also, 'female' is a character type defined by both picture and the scripture on the card. fight by the numbers and warrior/weapon class are both gameplay mechanics that are not relevant to the picture or scripture. i fail to see your connection here.
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its the PRINCIPLE that every single other brigade has its fair share of warrior/weapon class and demons do not.
You removed principle as an argument when you said the lack of weapons makes angels more powerful than demons. I want you to explain to me what exactly it is about the weapons that makes them more powerful and which the demons are lacking. Listing the cards for you is exactly the way to use the facts in front of you to answer my question. And still you do not.
You are also wandering off the reservation now, by changing your argument from "angels are not balanced with demons" to "demons (which you seem now to only mean 'orange' which is also a change, and which makes it an error to keep saying 'demon') should be able to hold weapons because other characters can". For which point am I supposed to try and understand your reasons?
also, 'female' is a character type defined by both picture and the scripture on the card. fight by the numbers and warrior/weapon class are both gameplay mechanics that are not relevant to the picture or scripture. i fail to see your connection here.
Various cards have various effects on various other cards based on a number of different qualities. Lacking a female character can be significant when faced with the female-only Lost Soul, or Temptation, or Women as Snares. So the lack of a female can create a strategic disadvantage to a collection of characters, but strengths in other areas can compensate for that. As someone who touts his experience with so many other card games, I did not think I had to explain that concept to you, but I hope this helps you understand better.
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the simple fact that silver can hold weapons, no matter how terrible the special ability is, is still far more versatile because they still gain an ability that can be used...while orange cannot. how good a card is is defined in the eye of the beholder, so while the cards you listed may be useless to you, they can be powerful to others.
the fact that teal lacks a female character (i have no idea if there are female priests in the bible) is not something that R&D can control. a 'male, female, genderless' identifier comes with the picture and scripture, and cannot be controlled. however, like i said earlier, fbtn and wc are gameplay mechanics that can be added to almost any character in redemption...so again, your female argument is invalid.
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the simple fact that silver can hold weapons, no matter how terrible the special ability is, is still far more versatile because they still gain an ability that can be used...while orange cannot.
So you still cannot show how silver weapons make angels more powerful than demons? You can only talk about principles and potentials?
a 'male, female, genderless' identifier comes with the picture and scripture, and cannot be controlled.
So your argument is that the developers have zero control over what cards are made or what appears on them? I find that a bizarre position. The Generous Widow HAD to be made, rather than a reprint of Peter or Lazarus in gold?
however, like i said earlier, fbtn and wc are gameplay mechanics that can be added to almost any character in redemption...so again, your female argument is invalid.
This statement makes no sense. Teal did not have to be given its own brigade. It originally was going to be spread out. The decision to move them into their own brigade is what precluded them from having any females of matching brigade, not some unseen, unstoppable force of card-generating nature.
Are you now saying that it's impossible to have females in an offense of priests, supposing those priests to be folded in rather than given their own brigade? That females are not in every other brigade in Redemption? That there is zero strategic value to having a female in your deck versus none? If it makes no difference, why would the identifier for gender even exist? The more you claim this is invalid, the less sense it makes.
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the simple fact that silver can hold weapons, no matter how terrible the special ability is, is still far more versatile because they still gain an ability that can be used...while orange cannot.
So you still cannot show how silver weapons make angels more powerful than demons? You can only talk about principles and potentials?
i've already shown you. you fail to understand.
a 'male, female, genderless' identifier comes with the picture and scripture, and cannot be controlled.
So your argument is that the developers have zero control over what cards are made or what appears on them? I find that a bizarre position.
let me break this down simple for you. lets say R&D picks a hero (for sake of argument, another michael). when it comes to identifying his gender, this is something R&D does not have control over. they cannot claim he is a female, because he is a male. these types of identifiers are uncontrollable. this has NOTHING to do with what R&D decides to make or not make. once again, fail at understanding.
however, like i said earlier, fbtn and wc are gameplay mechanics that can be added to almost any character in redemption...so again, your female argument is invalid.
This statement makes no sense. Teal did not have to be given its own brigade. It originally was going to be spread out. Are you now saying that it's impossible to have females in an offense of priests, supposing those priests to be folded in rather than given their own brigade? That females are not in every other brigade in Redemption? That there is zero strategic value to having a female in your deck versus none? If it makes no difference, why would the identifier for gender even exist? The more you claim this is invalid, the less sense it makes.
did i relay any of those suppositions to you? no. please stay on track here. you argument is trying to provide a clear connection between the game type 'female' and characters being 'fbtn' or 'warrior/weapon class'. it is INVALID because a female identifier is not something that can be stuck on EVERY possible card made; 'fbtn' and 'wc' are because they are regular gameplay mechanics. understand?
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i've already shown you. you fail to understand.
You haven't shown me anything. You said that the actual cards did not matter, that it was the principle. That unto itself is the exact opposite of explaining a genuine, demonstrable advantage.
let me break this down simple for you. lets say R&D picks a hero (for sake of argument, another michael). when it comes to identifying his gender, this is something R&D does not have control over... once again, fail at understanding.
They have control over which cards to make in the first place (e.g. Generous Widow or a Lazarus reprint). "Once again, fail at rational thought".
you argument is trying to provide a clear connection between the game type 'female' and characters being 'fbtn' or 'warrior/weapon class'. it is INVALID...
NO. I am not trying to "provide a connection between identifiers and special abilites" and the sooner you stop saying I am and just listen for once in your life, the sooner you will understand that.
I will say this again, just as I have directly stated it before. Different cards affect cards of varying types, sometimes based on special ability, sometimes based on card type, sometimes based on a characteristic such as an identifier, sometimes based on their numerical statistics. To have cards that give advantages or disadvantages to certain cards suggests that to have or not to have those cards might be a benefit or detriment to that player. It DOES NOT MATTER whether its based on special ability or an identifier because WE HAVE CARDS THAT TARGET ALL OF THESE THINGS IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER. If you want to spend one more second telling me the reference to females is invalid, prove to me that ZERO cards in the ENTIRE GAME EVER target gender.
Or you can get off the pointless semantics debate and address the REAL POINT that each of the brigades have strengths and weaknesses in certain areas.
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so oranges glaring weakness is suppossed to be no wc? ok. explain to me WHY.
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Orange has no glaring weaknesses because you told me identifiers are invalid.
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...that each of the brigades have strengths and weaknesses in certain areas.
and this is what you told me. apparantly, the lack of a special ability is a weakness. so, based on this...wouldnt that make the brigade, oh, i dunno...LESS powerful than others, at least in that area?
i never said identifiers were invalid. i said you trying to draw an argument from a card being female is invalid.
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and this is what you told me. apparantly, the lack of a special ability is a weakness. so, based on this...wouldnt that make the brigade, oh, i dunno...LESS powerful than others, at least in that area?
Oh, I dunno? Your dripping sarcasm is about as amusing as it is clever.
Yes, the lack of warriors/weapons is a disadvantage to other brigades when it comes to actually having versus not having them.
But you seem content to stop there. I took the argument one step further over a week ago, when I asked if those disadvantages made the entire brigade weaker than others, or made the game itself unbalanced. I made the point over a week ago that I do not think the lack of weapons unbalances demons (including non-orange) any more than I think the lack of female Heroes makes teal weaker than the other brigades, or the lack of deck discard in brown makes it weaker than the other brigades.
So whenever you're ready to process the difference between lacking in one area and being unbalanced overall, I've been sitting here for over a week waiting to move forward from that point.
i never said identifiers were invalid. i said you trying to draw an argument from a card being female is invalid.
And you were 1000% wrong on that point, never mind arguing the niggles rather than understanding and addressing the point for which females were only one example.
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yeah, i kinda have better things to do with my week than, oh, i dunno...concocting 10 page long fool-proof arguments over something that is in the end terribly inconsequential for a trivial card game...unlike some others. if you're waiting for that, i suggest packing a lunch.
let me sum it up for you. right off the bat, orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades. so, in what area does orange then make up for it in, to NOT make it an imbalanced brigade?
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let me sum it up for you. right off the bat, orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades. so, in what area does orange then make up for it in, to NOT make it an imbalanced brigade?
-It is entirely immune to cards that target humans...like converts, as well as some discards and captures.
-It has good recursion-of both enhancements and characters
-It can play off the bottom of the discard pile-which, with a character like evil spawn, takes away the need for a draw 2 play next weapon
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let me sum it up for you. right off the bat, orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades. so, in what area does orange then make up for it in, to NOT make it an imbalanced brigade?
-It is entirely immune to cards that target humans...like converts, as well as some discards and captures.
-It has good recursion-of both enhancements and characters
-It can play off the bottom of the discard pile-which, with a character like evil spawn, takes away the need for a draw 2 play next weapon
the last two are special abilities that any brigade is capable of having. the first only comes about because of what it is...much like schaefs 'female' argument, orange has no choice but to be demons.
however, warrior/weapon class are special abilities that for the most part seem VERY universal to me. only orange is lacking it, and no one has yet to give me a clear reason as to WHY.
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They don't seem universal to me. Why? Orange doesn't have them.
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the last two are special abilities that any brigade is capable of having. the first only comes about because of what it is...much like schaefs 'female' argument, orange has no choice but to be demons.
Orange is capable of having weapons, as shown by demons of other brigades having weapons. It just doesn't have any printed yet. Also, if a brigade develops an advantage "because of what it is", that is still an advantage...and if it wasn't evened out somehow, with all else equal the brigade that was just stronger "because of what it is" would be stronger than all of the rest.
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Also, who says WC has to be a strength? Cards like Davids Mighty Men have no effect on Orange.
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Since we are talking about Weapon Class enhancements in a thread title "Lampstand?", is it correct that a Lampstand is considered a weapon? Mayhaps there will be a Colonel Mustard promo coming out soon?
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yeah, i kinda have better things to do with my week than, oh, i dunno...concocting 10 page long fool-proof arguments over something that is in the end terribly inconsequential for a trivial card game...unlike some others.
Well, you were the one that claimed opinions should be supported. If you don't want to back up your own arguments, that's your call.
orange is lacking in warrior/weapon class. that already makes it imbalanced compared to other brigades.
But how does that make silver superior to orange? What can you point to and say "silver with weapons is better than orange without because of X"? The closest thing to an answer you've provided is "because they can".
the last two are special abilities that any brigade is capable of having.
What does that have to do with anything? Brown CAN have a deck discard strength. It doesn't. Red CAN have strong fight-by-numbers cards. The closest thing they have to that is Adino plus Spear. What difference does it make whether the brigade can or cannot have certain features? Its strengths and weaknesses are derived from what it does and does not have; the capacity is of no real consequence.
however, warrior/weapon class are special abilities that for the most part seem VERY universal to me. only orange is lacking it, and no one has yet to give me a clear reason as to WHY.
Why does there even have to be a why? They just don't. You, on the other hand, have claimed that the lack of weapons makes them inferior to all other brigades (expanded from previously saying just angels) but "not given a clear reason as to why". You've insisted that orange MUST have weapons but "not given a clear reason as to why". If weapons are added just because orange doesn't have them, wouldn't that make it an arbitrary addition, and wouldn't that run counter to your proposed purpose of developing brigades along specific lines for specific reasons?
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"You, on the other hand, have claimed that the lack of weapons makes them inferior to all other brigades"
Why not give them weapons? They are inferrior other brigades not neccessarily becuase of lack of weapon but because of othere things. Why not give orange weapons to give them a boost?
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Why weapons? Why not just ramp up the stuff they do well, like gold with deck discard?
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Why weapons? Why not just ramp up the stuff they do well, like gold with deck discard?
It doesn't have to be weapons all I was saying is that anything would be of great help to orange. I wish orange had gotten ranmped up in ROA.
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Are you really spending this much time whining about how orange doesn't have warrior class characters and weapons to match? Seriously? Even if WC would make a remotely significant difference in the strength of the orange brigade, you still need to find something better to do with your time. ::)
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Somebody made the point that silver and other evil brigades besides orange have no good weapons, I beg to differ... Silver: Angel's Sword, Michael's Sword Evil Besides Orange: All the draw 2 play next weapons, Goliath's Armor, and many others that i don't feel like listing because I already made my point.
Though orange is a very useful and strong brigade it would be relatively nice if cactus would add some WC enhancements and characters.
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I don't think anybody said that silver had NO good weapons. I specifically said that there were four that were probably worth using, and only one that people use regularly.
If anything, the draw/play next cards are a primary reason NOT to have warrior-class demons in most non-orange brigades. The Horses are among the most powerful and versatile weapons in the game, which is why a lot of the recent printings are limited within certain cultures. There aren't really any good "horse"-style weapons, so if we were to assume that weapons really made the difference about demons being effective or crummy (which they don't), to allow them to use these particular weapons would tilt the scales too far in the other direction. Then all kinds of demons could play first and angels could not, with the lone exception of Angel's Sword which only works against humans anyway.
At this point in their development I'd actually like to see what would happen if orange continued to be without warriors/weapons as their own personal quirk (similar to angel-only silver and no-female teal).
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At this point in their development I'd actually like to see what would happen if orange continued to be without warriors/weapons as their own personal quirk (similar to angel-only silver and no-female teal).
Agreed
I was simply arguing the point that orange would be boosted quite a bit by WC enhancements and characters added to the color, and the fact that there are more than one useful enhancements in silver.
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which I already said about silver.
In what way would weapons boost orange?
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Well.... That purely depends on what the SA's are. I can't necessarily answer that excerpt that it will give the brigade the possibility of more strategies.
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It seems strange to say that it'd help them but have no clue how it'd help them.
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It seems strange to say that it'd help them but have no clue how it'd help them.
Okay I can't predict the abilities of possible cards in the future but if cactus adds warriors/weapons to orange in the future it will make the brigade more versatile in the strategies that can be played. Thats all I'm trying to say here.
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In what way does it make them more versatile?
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By giving orange more warrior/weapon based strategies which are in other brigades too.
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Like what?
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In what way does it make them more versatile?
It's implied. It made other brigades more versatile.
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It's implied. It made other brigades more versatile.
In. What. Way?
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No the thing that makes orange weaker than other brigades is no demon protect fort. I'd like to see a printing something like "Protect demons in the fortress from effect, while a demon is here protect all demons in territory from discard and negate all ignores" or something. (I believe Three Nails is an ignore)
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What about an added ability that all evil placed cards in territory are immune to good effect? could blend orange and PG quite nicely...
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What I would like to see is a reprint of Tartaros, where your demon MAY go there if its discarded period, rather then only demons YOU discard or capture.
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+1
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No the thing that makes orange weaker than other brigades is no demon protect fort. I'd like to see a printing something like "Protect demons in the fortress from effect, while a demon is here protect all demons in territory from discard and negate all ignores" or something. (I believe Three Nails is an ignore)
The pit has a similar effect.
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No the thing that makes orange weaker than other brigades is no demon protect fort.
Ummm....
Spiritual Realm
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder's demons are protected from capture unless the capturing player has Tartaros in play. While holder's demon is in battle, weapon-class enhancements on human heroes are worth 0/0.
1) It goes along with demons in battle (which no other protect fortress I can think of does (it just protects your territory))
2) How many people have Tartaros (I've never seen it in play)
3) The bonus with the weapons being 0/0 is nice :).
4) This stops one of the most used battle winner (IMO) and since demons can't be converted, they already stop another battle winner (it's the Z temple of the demon world :P).
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This stops one of the most used battle winner
Ignores are the most used battle winner.
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http://cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12191.0 has Hedgehogman and me discussing demonic fortresses with some similar effects as are being mentioned here.
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This stops one of the most used battle winner
Ignores are the most used battle winner.
Bolded an important word that you missed.
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Hmmm I can count on my hand the amount of cards that can capture demons.
Its best used as protection from Women as Snares .
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I can think of Baggage, Demons in Chains, Women as Snares, Trapped in Cleverness, Banishment, and Elders of the City, at least. Your hand is deformed. :p
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You forgot Joseph before Pharaoh. The only mentions cards I ever see is Women as Snares, and Elders of the City.
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I honestly meant hands.
Still, less then 10 cards out of over 2000.