Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Vagner on May 20, 2012, 12:58:49 PM
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Philistine Outpost protects sites from being placed beneath deck. If my human evil character is discarded, am I still allowed to place my lost soul, from the Hormah site, beneath deck?
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Abilities for reference and bolding the important parts:
Philistine Outpost
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks.
Hormah
Type: Site • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If your human Evil Character is discarded, you may place this Site and its contents beneath owner’s deck.
First, I've always thought that the LS could not be placed beneath deck. In fact, I'm almost certain that was the intention of that clause in Philistine Outpost, as you could just do something like discard your Philistine Armorbearer from deck to bottom-deck Hormah otherwise.
However. After re-reading the abilities, Hormah places itself "and contents" beneath deck. The contents are not protected, just the site, as Outpost is very specific: "Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks." The contents were never protected, and the cost was paid. Therefore, as much of the benefit as possible is completed.
Despite the intentions of this card, if Philistine Outpost is out, if Hormah is tripped by the discard of your EC, you may place the contents on the bottom of deck and Hormah stays in territory. Effectively giving you the ability to bottom-deck a soul per turn. Wonderful, it's broken.
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The Elders will have to address this for final ruling, but I would disagree.
"May" abilities that are separated by "and" are treated as the "may" applying to each part, but that is because they are separate abilities. In this case, "place beneath" is the ability. The target is "this site and its contents."
You are treating this as a Cost/Benefit Ability (Do this to do that), but it is a Triggered Ability (If this then that). I do not believe that "as much as you can do" applies to triggered abilities that are connected.
Of course, I may be completely wrong, but that is how I would rule it at my tournaments until an Elder says otherwise. With that said, I do give credit to an astute observation. ;D
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Of course, I may be completely wrong, but that is how I would rule it at my tournaments until an Elder says otherwise. With that said, I do give credit to an astute observation. ;D
Agreed on the bold (and the last part of that quote as well ;)). The status quo is that you cannot, and until the Elders say otherwise, I'd have to rule against it.
But, based on the wording of the cards and precedent for similar abilities, there is no reason that the current combination wouldn't result in a situation as I've described. I see what you're saying, but triggered abilities still do as much as they can. There are two targets specified: the site, and the site's contents. They are separate and only one is protected. Anything not protected should be bottom-decked.
**Edited out big request for elder since errata makes me wrong ;)
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/philistine-hormah/msg280637/#msg280637
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/official-errata/errata-reworded-special-abilities/msg32/#msg32
The REG just needs to be updated.
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The REG just needs to be updated.
What's new?
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/philistine-hormah/msg280637/#msg280637
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/official-errata/errata-reworded-special-abilities/msg32/#msg32
The REG just needs to be updated.
For those too lazy to go there ;)
Hormah - If your human Evil Character is discarded you may place this Site beneath owner's deck to place its contents beneath owner's deck.
It is indeed in the Official Errata. Never saw that before, and yes, update needed.
EDIT: Could somebody please find out why the search still doesn't work on the site? I feel that a majority of the questions that have been posed of late could be resolved if that were still functional. Not everyone has the Google-fu powers necessary to find everything.
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Whoa. Yes, the REG does need to be updated. If that Errata was made back in 2006, I think six years is plenty of time to add it to the REG. During tournaments, hosts don't have time to look for an errata like that. I never would have found it and would have had to make a complex ruling for no reason.
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FWIW, the errata was actually made in the 2009-2010 season, after TexP (and thus Outpost) was released, which made the errata necessary. It should still be added to the REG, of course, but I just wanted to note that it hasn't been six years.
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FWIW, the errata was actually made in the 2009-2010 season, after TexP (and thus Outpost) was released, which made the errata necessary. It should still be added to the REG, of course, but I just wanted to note that it hasn't been six years.
I see. I was going by Redoubter's quote box.
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FWIW, the errata was actually made in the 2009-2010 season, after TexP (and thus Outpost) was released, which made the errata necessary. It should still be added to the REG, of course, but I just wanted to note that it hasn't been six years.
I see. I was going by Redoubter's quote box.
It states such an early date on his quote box because that's when the official errata post was made, and its been edited to include later erratas.
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Hormah wasn't released until 2007 8)
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Hormah wasn't released until 2007 8)
Neither were the buffaloes...