Brown can finally use the decrease theme it has had for a long time.
Red finally has a character that can remove a character, which it has needed for a while.
I love what Canaanites are doing, plus they pair well with Brown.
My biggest fear is the Assyrian Siege Army since it destroys fortresses and such and it can't be negated (which is why I'm tripling up on all my important fortresses or finding a way to protect them). However I really haven't gotten used to the set yet so I'm not sure.
I don't think Tower of Thebez is that impressive (except as a protect fort) it stops your own heroes, I see the best thing Canaanites have is Stone of Thebez which is CBN on both Jezebel and Woman at Thebez.
The reason they pair with Brown is mostly because Jezebel + Ahab is awesome and you might as well run some Stone of Thebez.
lol your dreaming if you think brown beats green
I agree with the general assesment that the power creep is absurd.
And I also agree that the power creep in redemption has gone way past "creep"I'm gonna go ahead and make a prediction here a year ahead of time. Today people are complaining about "power creep". Next year they are going to be complaining about lack of "power creep". Complaining is inevitable :)
I agree with the general assesment that the power creep is absurd.And I also agree that the power creep in redemption has gone way past "creep"I'm gonna go ahead and make a prediction here a year ahead of time. Today people are complaining about "power creep". Next year they are going to be complaining about lack of "power creep". Complaining is inevitable :)
Complaining is inevitable :)And I thought with all the new rulings, and the new REG, everyone would be happy.
You say that it's the biggest power creeps bit it's one of the smallest expansions?
There's some crazy cards in only six tins. Ahimelek is OP, and there's tons of other cards that take mid-tier themes and make them bananas.
It was pretty tough keeping the new version of Bravery of David and Jezebel at the same power level as their original versions. But I think they're fairly balanced and players will have a tough time choosing which version to use in their deck this year. ::)
*cough*setrotation*cough*As long as Babylon the Great is always OK'd, I wouldn't complain much.
When I say power creep mostly I'm not talking about specific cards, but general trends in cards.
When I say power creep mostly I'm not talking about specific cards, but general trends in cards.
What about this:
Tola: Draw a card.
Jair: Draw 2 cards if all your heroes are OT, CBI.
Gibeonite Red due: Draw X cards (number of WC in battle)
Abby: Draw X cards (number of OT WC you control).
X is limit 3, but still. Creep. and that's on a meh ability. It seems every BW has a CBP now.
I think that they figured out that they needed to give good speed to themes if they wanted people to actually use them.
I wonder if power creep can be mapped out and approximated into a mathematical function, because that would be awesome.^ Future mathematics professor.
I think (based on the priveous definition of power creep) a small level of a power creep in an expansion is required. If people couldn't improve their decks with new cards They would get board.
That being said, I think it can easily ruin the game if new cards come out every year that can't be contended.
So what were really looking for is a perfect medium which inevitably will never be found. We will either become bored with the game or complain about how the super powers of last year aren't so super anymore. But so what? In 6 months the new leading power will come out definitely and then 6 months after that new cards will come out you'll all start complaining about the new power being trumped.
And then repeat the next year etc...
@ Chronic Apathy
Don't underestimate Disciples, they're still a top offense... Herod's Temple is now possibly the best card in the game since most of the new CBN cards this set are discard, and most disciples can't be killed in one hit by Gates of Samaria.
site decks were non-existent at the top tablesTell that to my 3-3 tie. Had I played faster against you and been prepared for site-stall, RDT would have won and MJWare would have taken second.
The complaint is that, instead of balancing lesser used strategies, they've taken a handful of strategies and made them nigh untouchable. So now next year, they're going to try and take other themes that received no help this year (Disciples, TGT, maybe Persians, Demons, etc)
Yes they could use help but are you really saying OT kings, (good and evil) didn't need help?
Profits didn't need help?
The Canaanites didn't need help?
Assyrian didn't need help?
Judges didn't need help?
And RED Didn't need help?
I nearly never came against these themes...
But in fairness maybe I just haven't played long enough.
site decks were non-existent at the top tablesTell that to my 3-3 tie. Had I played faster against you and been prepared for site-stall, RDT would have won and MJWare would have taken second.
and I wouldn't even call Pit of Dothan and Damascus shutting someone out a "site stall."site decks were non-existent at the top tablesTell that to my 3-3 tie. Had I played faster against you and been prepared for site-stall, RDT would have won and MJWare would have taken second.
by non-existent i really mean almost non-existent. i know there was that one kid that had the site-stall that one time at the top tables, but he was rarely there and didnt finish top 10. site decks as a whole were practically non-existent at nats.
Profits didn't need help?
You know Chronic, for being so apathetic all the time you certainly do complain alot ;)
Yes they could use help but are you really saying OT kings, (good and evil) didn't need help?
Profits didn't need help?
The Canaanites didn't need help?
Assyrian didn't need help?
Judges didn't need help?
And RED Didn't need help?
I nearly never came against these themes...
But in fairness maybe I just haven't played long enough.
It certainly wasn't site lock. I guess he had Land Dispute, but that doesn't count. I shouldn't have been locked, but I made a bad mistake.Hmm... That's what I heard from all of the top table people, including you...
There was no Pit of Dathan. Otherwise, I would have been fine, as it's not protected by CP.
I would argue that brown as a whole did not need as much help as they got. "Evil Kings of Israel" wasn't really much of a theme prior to this set, but it's ludicrous to think that they aren't overpowered.How are they overpowered? At all?
I would argue that brown as a whole did not need as much help as they got. "Evil Kings of Israel" wasn't really much of a theme prior to this set, but it's ludicrous to think that they aren't overpowered.How are they overpowered? At all?
Brown was A Tier and has maintained being A Tier. They aren't Uber yet.
I would argue that brown as a whole did not need as much help as they got. "Evil Kings of Israel" wasn't really much of a theme prior to this set, but it's ludicrous to think that they aren't overpowered.How are they overpowered? At all?
Brown was A Tier and has maintained being A Tier. They aren't Uber yet.
Decrease is disgusting. Omri is an auto-block now? Ewwww.
cards like golgotha and i am sustainer are reasons i severely wish this game was best 2 of 3 and had sideboard.And top cut. We'd have to make T1 a 2 day category though.
Some more counters to decrease: every healing card.BACKWARD SHADOWLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Well, my point is that people keep saying decrease is too powerful when a decent counter exists.They said the same about Thad.
Well, my point is that people keep saying decrease is too powerful when a decent counter exists.
heh, yeah, some of us have figured that out already...most protect forts certainly dont protect from decrease.Wut? At least 3 or 4 do.
So then, I can still block with Proud Pharisee and play Balaam's Disobedience to win a battle. I'll think of something more nasty later.
Okay, now question:
I have a */0 or lower assyrian archer with 2kh. I block, and play achans sin. What do? am I discarded or removed?
Which ones other than the Gates?Tower of Thebez.
Which ones other than the Gates?Tower of Thebez.
Rather than talk about "power creep" as if it's a separate entity, let's look at how the new set impacted viability.Thank you.
Last season:
Disciples
TGT
maaaaaaybe Genesis
This season:
Disciples
TGT
Genesis
Red
Purple
Isaiah/Prophets
maaaaaybe Judges
Looks like a good thing to me.
Rather than talk about "power creep" as if it's a separate entity, let's look at how the new set impacted viability.
Last season:
Disciples
TGT
FBNB
Prophets
Teal Priests
maaaaaaybe Genesis
This season:
Disciples
TGT
Genesis
FBNB
Red/Purple
Isaiah/Prophets
maaaaaybe Judges
Looks about the same to me.
Rather than talk about "power creep" as if it's a separate entity, let's look at how the new set impacted viability.
Last season:
Disciples only Metagame
This Season:
Gates of Samaria only Metagame
Looks like a good thing to me.
BACKWARD SHADOWLOLOLOLOLOLOL
How do you suggest that we improve them and avoid power creep in those themes?First off, I like Maly's idea of never printing another draw card again. I'm pretty sure 1/6 of the set could draw. (Samuel, Abigail, Jair, Angel under the Oak, Ishmaiah, The Dreaming Pharoah, That Egyptian Sabbath Breaker, That Canaanite Dude, Year of Plenty, and one other?) And those are almost all characters, so they can be used multiple times. It's not the best way to try and fix an FTMayhem. I thought you had some nice ideas in your anti-mayhem thread.
How do you suggest that we improve them and avoid power creep in those themes?
And finally, the best idea would be:
Did Purple Royalty need Abigail? No. They had Reach, Pentecost, and The Throne of David. Genesis has awful drawing, and I bet we'll see quite a few Genesis decks this year.
I agree that red needed drawing power.
Will get back to this...first day of school...ugh...
You forgot buying grain.and Well Reopened.
I agree that Genesis wasn't slow, unless your basis for comparison is the top decks from the past three years.Yes, it is. Also, three? Try 7ish. I don't know when old school speed came about, but there's no way Genesis could keep up with that.
Yes, it is. Also, three? Try 7ish. I don't know when old school speed came about, but there's no way Genesis could keep up with that.
Silly Kittens, Uriah isn't for discarding ECs, he's for combos.I like mine pizza flavored.
For Red's viability as a solo brigade, I don't see it.One Word: Abigail. That is basically the solo reason red has become awesome. She is red, so you don't need to splash purple (although I like to), and almost always draws 3 unless you're first turning her. Also, wheel within a wheel can get her out faster, or win a battle if you search for ahimalek.
For Red's viability as a solo brigade, I don't see it.One Word: Abigail. That is basically the solo reason red has become awesome. She is red, so you don't need to splash purple (although I like to), and almost always draws 3 unless you're first turning her. Also, wheel within a wheel can get her out faster, or win a battle if you search for ahimalek.
And honestly I don't see the threat of brown. I think it's going to end up complained about all the time but not actually that great. It requires at least a little bit of setup, and red/purple is fast enough now that I will have already won.
Spoilered cards are always n00bish.Hosea, Fishing Boat, Grapes, and TGT? lolwat?
Hosea's meh, Boat's overhyped (I rarely used it at nats), I didn't know Grapes was spoilered, and who uses TGT?
Silly Kittens, Uriah isn't for discarding ECs, he's for playing Trumpet and Sword with a Tabernacle Priest in play and wiping out your opponent's entire defense CBN.
I guess my problem with this set is the drawing.
Last year people were complaining that Mathew was OP,
I don't see how making 8(?) clones of him in different brigades makes the game more fun.
T1 is just going to be a race to the draw X character and the themes that have multiples (purple/red) are going to win because they can draw fastest.
A deck without HEROES generally loses to a deck with lots of HEROES, yes? Isn't that considered overpowered?fify. ;)
If you know your opponent is going to be using a lot of draw abilities, then capitalize on it somehow. Abom? Watchful Servant? Something else?I tried that already. Got owned before I could set it up.
Exactly. All of the speed counters are useless unless you draw them in the first 1-2 turns of the game. Therefore, if you even use a speed counter, you need speed to get it in time.A great speed counter they could print would be something that made them shuffle in their hand and only draw, like, 6 cards. You could make it a dominant so you could play it whenever. It'd probably need a cost, so let's just say both players have to shuffle in and draw 6. You could use it first turn if you wanted! Great counter, right?
Exactly. All of the speed counters are useless unless you draw them in the first 1-2 turns of the game. Therefore, if you even use a speed counter, you need speed to get it in time.
For the first time since I started playing (3 years ago), red is truly overpowered. I don't feel that much elaboration is needed here - just take a look at what they've gotten. Similar feelings on what brown has received. With the new ruling on the way ability reduction works, using brown to do exactly that has become quite overpowered. Heck, even without that new ruling, territory destruction with brown is going to cause a huge ripple this year. Now admittedly, we're only a couple weeks into experience with the new set, but I think it's undeniable that red and brown (along with Genesis - both good and evil) has seen a huge boost. I'm sure my opinions on various things will change in the coming weeks and months, but right now that's my first impression. Anyone agree? Disagree?Think boy! You answered your own question. "For the first time.... red is truly overpowered.". Exactly! Let it be strong, who could be competitive with a mono red deck last year? No complaining, let it be. And same with brown. There are PLENTY of easy counters to stop brown's decrease. And like my previous statement, who could be competitive with a decrease deck last year? Genesis, in type 2, is very strong. Characters that cause lost soul generation, drawing, with CBN plethora of battle winners, is extremely scary. But the Genesis evil side is not nearly close to overpowered.
There are plenty of speed counter cards and plenty of search abilities. If you’re that worried about speed put in a search combo or 2 to counter it???
So if you want a theme that isn’t speed, ...Piggybacking is speed. You're still drawing.
piggyback
Sure it’s a starter card but Gifts of the Magi opens the door to “underused” themes, by your definition.
But if you’re really looking speed prevention go play at least 1 Gneisses character and pull out seven years of famine. That card should dissuade people from over drawing, and that card is in this “speedy” new set.Why use Seven Years of Famine when you can use Seven Years of Plenty and draw more, resulting in winning?
But piggybacking allows you to play themes that aren’t speed. Diablo was asking for some counter cards and the tread is supposed to be about the new cards (if you go back 10 pages to Chronic’s original complaint) so I thought I use a new card as an example of a speed counter, and a rather good one at that.Speed isn't a theme. It's a style of play. It's not hard to take a non-speed theme and make it fast by adding a few cards. Releasing 8 speed cards and 1 counter isn't doing a good job at stopping it's dominance in the meta.
Again, there's a big difference between "draw your whole deck as quickly as possible" and "draw faster than your opponent."If you compare speed with "fast", you'll find they can draw about the same amount. Example:
With all due respect, Andrew, that comparison is very flawed. Maybe you just tossed it together quickly without thinking it through?
"Old school speed" was a pre-Priests concept. It existed long before the set-aside draw cards were introduced to the game. It involved drawing most of your deck (if not the whole thing) in the first few turns of the game. It always used Hur+Gifts and also had Love at First Sight, in addition to other less potent drawing combos and withdraw cards so you could do it all again next turn (or on defense with a side battle). That's the "speed freak" deck where modern day "speed" got it's name. Needless to say, "old school speed" drew significantly more than 16 cards, closer to twice that many.
Your conclusion for a modern "fast" deck is probably close to accurate. It might typically draw up to 16 cards per game, if everything goes right.
With all due respect, Andrew, that comparison is very flawed. Maybe you just tossed it together quickly without thinking it through?Pretty much! The basic premise was to put together as much drawing as possible (and slightly realistic) in one turn.
"Old school speed" was a pre-Priests concept. It existed long before the set-aside draw cards were introduced to the game. It involved drawing most of your deck (if not the whole thing) in the first few turns of the game. It always used Hur+Gifts and also had Love at First Sight, in addition to other less potent drawing combos and withdraw cards so you could do it all again next turn (or on defense with a side battle). That's the "speed freak" deck where modern day "speed" got it's name. Needless to say, "old school speed" drew significantly more than 16 cards, closer to twice that many.The concept was pre-priests, but since mentioned Phineas/Zeal here:
People seem to be confusing "speed" and "fast." Speed is dead. No more can you have a deck with 20 drawing cards, 11 doms, 8 LS's, and 11 autowin/autoblock combos. There is a huge difference between a Red/Purple deck using Abigail and that Canaanite, and a deck with Phinehas+Zeal, ET+AoCP, King Amazing+King Basa, Jacob+Captian, and TSA.
Your conclusion for a modern "fast" deck is probably close to accurate. It might typically draw up to 16 cards per game, if everything goes right.
You want a way to counter speed? Make it like MTG. When you run out of cards in your deck, you lose. Speed just got nerfed, or people will start building HUGE speed decks.Personally, I don't like that idea. There's waay too many games even without speed that you'll deck and it comes down to who can survive. Endgame strategies would be nerfed as well, like Watchful Servant and Zebby.
You want a way to counter speed? Make it like MTG. When you run out of cards in your deck, you lose. Speed just got nerfed, or people will start building HUGE speed decks.There are some great games which don't even start until the endgame. While they're few and far between, they can get crazy intense with strategy.
60 card minimum, 8 ls in your deck, ban NJ.
That might help.
For years players have advocated either playing to 6 LS or banning NJ. I still stand behind that sentiment.
Kirk
Playing to 6 would accompany a 60 card deck minimum.
What are you going to do strand them at 2 using NJ? No defense is impenetrable.Impenetrable from everything except the draw...
And semi-miscalculated plays (mistakes). ;)I prefer the term play-style judgements.
I prefer the term play-style judgements.