Author Topic: Dominants (Read 15866 times)

D-man · « **Reply #25 on:** February 15, 2010, 11:42:21 PM »

Quote from: Ironica on February 15, 2010, 11:11:56 PM

Here's some ways to stop the Doms that people keep complaining about:

SOG/NJ:
1) discard SOG from deck/hand and then NJ will be useless (there's multiple ways to do this and Angel At The Tomb is quite rare to find in decks to worry about it)
2) Altar Of Ahaz (stops them cold (especially with a great defense/auto-blocks))
3) The two lost souls that can't be rescued by them (*/4 and NT)

Angel Of The Lord/Christian Martyr
1) Same as number one above
2) Band
3) Healing Cards

DON:
1) Same as above
2) Lampstand
3) Use another artifact that you know are DON magnets to keep your other ones safe

Burial:
1) Same as above
2) Lampstand
3) Anti-burial LS

For all the other ones, they are not that big of deal (since there are plenty of cards that will do basically the same thing).

SoG/NJ
Altar of Ahaz isn't very good. For one thing, you lose it whenever they rescue. Also, it stops your SoG/NJ as well. No one ever uses it.
Almost every time, people rescue their own LS with SoG. Changing your LS selection won't be very effective at stopping it.
If there is a card that everyone uses, and the only effective way to stop it is to get rid of it before they use it, then I think it is broken. Plus, you can't exactly discard half a dozen Dominants from an opponent's deck before they draw them.

AoTL/CM
I oppose these dominants to a lesser extent. But how does an unnegatable, playable-on-anyone-at-any-time battle winner improve the game? BTW, healing cards aren't very helpful, as you still lose the battle if that's where they're using it.

I don't think the other two are too overpowered (with the possible exception of DoN). However, I've never really been a big fan of dominants in general. They ruin initiative, as Sean pointed out. And as I said before, unstoppable cards that can be played at any time are bad news in my book.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #26 on:** February 15, 2010, 11:47:46 PM »

Quote

No one ever uses it.

Lies

I saw one in ROOT just tonight, and it mattered.

Shrimpoli · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2010, 11:52:54 PM »

I like dominants that have a certain strategy to them i.e. Mayhem, Doubt, Grapes...have strategy, somethng that can throw a twist into the game so people have to think on their feet, but not so much as "if you draw this card you win"... i.e. SOG ,NJ ,AOL thats three lost souls right there and after that even a just semi good offence can rescue two lost souls in a lot of cases...

Sean · « **Reply #28 on:** February 16, 2010, 12:05:40 AM »

Quote

Grapes...have strategy, somethng that can throw a twist into the game so people have to think on their feet, but not so much as "if you draw this card you win"...

You don't play Grapes to its full potential then. Its a copy of Angel of the Lord wrapped in a new box.

Ironica · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2010, 12:13:40 AM »

Quote from: D-man on February 15, 2010, 11:42:21 PM

SoG/NJ
Altar of Ahaz isn't very good. For one thing, you lose it whenever they rescue.

So make sure you have a good defense to go along with it

Also, it stops your SoG/NJ as well. No one ever uses it.

I guess I'm a nobody

Almost every time, people rescue their own LS with SoG. Changing your LS selection won't be very effective at stopping it.

However, I've seen and been in plenty of games where there isn't a plethora of choices for rescue and all that is out is one lost soul in each territory (or they are having a drought and need yours to use SOG/NJ)

If there is a card that everyone uses, and the only effective way to stop it is to get rid of it before they use it, then I think it is broken.

is HT and ANB broken? It only takes two cards (like SOG/NJ) and basically can't be stopped unless you discard it before they use it. I know it's not an automatic two LS but I'm just using it as another example of two cards that can't really be stopped unless you get rid of them before they can play them.

Plus, you can't exactly discard half a dozen Dominants from an opponent's deck before they draw them.

Never said that you had to discard them all (it was just an option to deal with each individual dominant). Also, there are multiple ways to get rid of cards from your opponent's deck (those a lot of them do rely on chance).

AoTL/CM
I oppose these dominants to a lesser extent. But how does an unnegatable, playable-on-anyone-at-any-time battle winner improve the game? BTW, healing cards aren't very helpful, as you still lose the battle if that's where they're using it.

It's called banding...learn it...love it...live it

Something you have to think about, though. I there were no Dominates, what do you think Jesus should be? It's hard to have a whole Bible Based game (that spans the entire Bible and not just certain areas) without having Christ in it.

I do agree that Doms are powerful but Cactus is taking the right steps by having any new ones not a pure guarantee win and more situational. It would be good to have more cards that counter Doms instead of outright banning them (imagine that headline, "Jesus Is Banned In Christian Card Game"

).

lightningninja · « **Reply #30 on:** February 16, 2010, 12:23:07 AM »

Hypothically, yes there are counters. But my "anti-dominant" deck prove that it wasn't practical. The fact that every single year at nationals, the winner in type I 2P has aotl, sog, cm, etc. in his/her deck supports this. And how many have used Altar of Ahaz in the 4 years it's been released? None. Can you band or heal, sure. But banding can be stopped MUCH easier than doms can (which you failed to mention Ironica), and healing doesn't help you at all; you still lost the battle.

Bottom line: No, there really aren't effective counters.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #31 on:** February 16, 2010, 08:00:48 AM »

Oh, I just thought of a good LS or place card ability! "Protect all Lost Souls in an opponent's territory from being removed from play by a dominant."

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #32 on:** February 16, 2010, 08:20:03 AM »

Quote from: Sean on February 16, 2010, 12:05:40 AM

Quote
Grapes...have strategy, somethng that can throw a twist into the game so people have to think on their feet, but not so much as "if you draw this card you win"...
You don't play Grapes to its full potential then. Its a copy of Angel of the Lord wrapped in a new box.

Pah, I find grapes to be much more effective as a defensive card. Its especially funny to use it on my own Wandering Spirit.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #33 on:** February 16, 2010, 08:42:32 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on February 15, 2010, 10:51:41 PM

If you successfully pull off that artifact, and you have even an average deckbuild, I find it hard to foresee a situation where you would lose.

But that is an important "if". "If" you don't get that artifact until late in the game after your opponent has already played several dominants, then they will probably have a big lead against your deck which completely lacks dominants. So it's a risk to play without the dominants, and its a risk to play with them. A strategic choice either way. That's what I like

redemption101 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:04:56 AM »

what if doms had a discard requirement,
sog =2
NJ =1
Don =1
fa =1
Goys =1
aotl =1
.....
that way a person playing sog nj has to get rid of three other cards making it much more of stratigic timeing.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #35 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:07:12 AM »

I think this game would have been much better if SoG had been the only dominant ever made. That would have made him special, and made the game more balanced.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #36 on:** February 16, 2010, 11:17:33 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 16, 2010, 10:07:12 AM

I think this game would have been much better if SoG had been the only dominant ever made. That would have made him special, and made the game more balanced.

This. Although now that the horse is out of the barn, I do really like Mayhem and GotL.

D-man · « **Reply #37 on:** February 16, 2010, 12:21:12 PM »

Not sure about that combo, Ironica. For one thing, it actually requires three cards: HT, ANB, and a hero. Secondly, you have to draw HT and the hero after playing ANB, meaning they have to be in the top 11 cards in your deck after the shuffle. Also, the combo has many counters. Such as blocking. If your opponent draws defense (which is no less likely than your drawing offense), then you aren't guaranteed anything.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 16, 2010, 10:07:12 AM

I think this game would have been much better if SoG had been the only dominant ever made. That would have made him special, and made the game more balanced.

Except Doubt.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #38 on:** February 16, 2010, 03:33:47 PM »

I know for T1 dominants can be a problem, but playing T2 dominants actually help balance the game, and any dominant nerfing in T1 that spills over to T2 could actually hurt the game (or at least T2)

Try fighting 5 pre battle ignores without soaking some up with dominants or stopping a CBN character with a weapon if you haven't drawn your weapon discard cards.

Also Angel of the Lord is far from a guaranteed rescue, Madness or Unknown Nation, a 2Khorses weapon, banding, a character like Judas, Auto block character, another dominant (yes most dominants actually balance other ones)

Ironica · « **Reply #39 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:28:08 PM »

Quote from: D-man on February 16, 2010, 12:21:12 PM

Not sure about that combo, Ironica. For one thing, it actually requires three cards: HT, ANB, and a hero.

Then SOG/NJ require four cards (SOG, NJ, 2 LS). Also, any prophet deck will have no problem having a green prophet available when they to get it.

Quote

Secondly, you have to draw HT and the hero after playing ANB, meaning they have to be in the top 11 cards in your deck after the shuffle.

I think you misunderstood my example. Here's a play by play:

I activate HT. I start a rescue attempt with a random green prophet. Using the ability of HT, I play ABN before you are even allowed to block. Everything is shuffled and I start a new turn. The only way to stop this combo besides discarding it before it get's going is to use DON.

Quote

Also, the combo has many counters. Such as blocking. If your opponent draws defense (which is no less likely than your drawing offense), then you aren't guaranteed anything.

As previously mentioned:

Quote

I know it's not an automatic two LS but I'm just using it as another example of two cards that can't really be stopped unless you get rid of them before they can play them.

Also, I used that example to reply to this quote:

Quote

the only effective way to stop it is to get rid of it before they use it, then I think it is broken.

I was just giving another example of a combo that is basically unstoppable and asking if they thought it was broken.

Again, I do agree that there needs to be some more counters to SOG/NJ. I am, however, against banning cards. I remember a thread talking about banning NJ and in the middle of it, people started talking about banning other cards. Once you start, you just can't stop.

SirNobody · « **Reply #40 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:39:00 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Shrimpoli on February 15, 2010, 11:52:54 PM

I like dominants that have a certain strategy to them i.e. Mayhem, Doubt, Grapes...have strategy, somethng that can throw a twist into the game so people have to think on their feet, but not so much as "if you draw this card you win"... i.e. SOG

There can be a lot of strategy involved in how you play Son of God, if you're playing it right. Of course there are a lot of players that don't play it right.

Quote

SOG ,NJ ,AOL thats three lost souls right there and after that even a just semi good offence can rescue two lost souls in a lot of cases...

As I've said before, I couldn't disagree more. Rescuing two souls against a decent defense is a lot harder than it seems. And Son of God, New Jerusalem, and Angel of the Lord are a far cry from an automatic three souls.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

D-man · « **Reply #41 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:52:15 PM »

Ironica, I misunderstood you because I interpreted "HT" as Harvest Time.

My bad.

However, I still don't see how this particular combo is very effective: it doesn't really guarantee anything (unless I'm missing something).

Lost Souls are fairly easy to come by. I didn't count them as part of the combo. Also, your HT combo still needs 4 cards as well. HT, a Hero, ANB, and a Lost Soul.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #42 on:** February 16, 2010, 09:53:57 PM »

Quote

And Son of God, New Jerusalem, and Angel of the Lord are a far cry from an automatic three souls.

I don't think "a far cry" is a worthwhile term to use to describe the difference between how often these three cards rescue three Lost Souls and them being stopped somehow.

Also, in response to your contending that rescuing twice against a good defense is difficult, yes and no. The main problem I have with these dominants is how VAST they make the gulf between a good opening hand and a bad opening hand. With dominants, you could, through no fault of your own, lose on the third round simply because you got 3 Lost Souls and either only one EC who got AotL'd, no EC's, no EE's, in the 17 cards you had to work with. Without Dominants, games would be, at minimum, five rounds long. In five rounds, you get ~24 cards to work with, even without drawing, or almost half your deck. If you drew no defense in all that, your deck is constructed poorly. The way Dominants skew the game now, you could have a Heroless deck and still not draw any EC's in the time it takes your opponent to win.

The objections to why I hate dominants so much seem to be very simple in face of how vastly complex the problems that Dominants cause are.

Ironica · « **Reply #43 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:11:14 PM »

Quote from: D-man on February 16, 2010, 09:52:15 PM

Ironica, I misunderstood you because I interpreted "HT" as Harvest Time. My bad.

However, I still don't see how this particular combo is very effective: it doesn't really guarantee anything (unless I'm missing something).

Lost Souls are fairly easy to come by. I didn't count them as part of the combo. Also, your HT combo still needs 4 cards as well. HT, a Hero, ANB, and a Lost Soul.

So it's even then

.

Actually, I was just thinking of a two card combo that is basically unstoppable to show that just because something ends up being unstoppable, doesn't necessarily means it's broken.

lightningninja · « **Reply #44 on:** February 16, 2010, 10:19:36 PM »

Ironica, what's your point about ANB? They can't rescue two ls. If ANB and HT with a green prophet is unstoppable, who cares? But sog and nj are two ls, instantly. And they are rarely stopped. That's like saying, you can't stop a hero from entering battle. That's a 1 card unstoppable combo! Yeah but who cares? It's just one hero.

redemptioncousin · « **Reply #45 on:** February 17, 2010, 11:49:18 AM »

Honestly, I think the best card to create to counter dominants would be a fortress. Dominants are most effective in speed decks. Counters to dominants (as they are now) must either be played in battle, or be in your artifact pile. Speed decks effectively deal with both of these situations. They play their dominants in battle or don't let their opponent block effectively nerfing cards like confusion. With artifacts like AoA or LotS, I have yet to see a speed deck that doesn't play with both DoN and Captured Ark... also nerfing those counters.

A speed deck, does not however, contain substantial defense. A great majority of the cards that hurt fortresses are on the defensive side. I realize how much fortresses have been complained about recently, but I honestly think that this would be the best type of card to make to "semi-counter" some dominants. At the very least, it would make speed decks play with some defense, effectively decreasing the speed at which they get their dominants.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #46 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:23:43 PM »

Or, we could do what everyone's been clamoring for for years and make T1 6LS with a 60 card minimum.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #47 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:48:40 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 17, 2010, 01:23:43 PM

Or, we could do what everyone's been clamoring for for years and make T1 6LS with a 60 card minimum.

I also like this plan.

Quote from: redemptioncousin on February 17, 2010, 11:49:18 AM

I have yet to see a speed deck that doesn't play with both DoN and Captured Ark... also nerfing those [artifact] counters.

Neither DoN nor CA would stop the artifact that I'm talking about.

"If owner has not played any dominants this game, then discard this artifact to remove all dominants from all hands, decks, and discard piles from the game."

redemptioncousin · « **Reply #48 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:57:48 PM »

That artifact encourages speed (on both sides) even more...

Sean · « **Reply #49 on:** February 17, 2010, 02:19:31 PM »

I think Prof U may be talking about this.

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Author Topic: Dominants (Read 15866 times)

Ironica

Lamborghini_diablo

Ironica

Ironica