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My hubby and I were playing and I won the battle.  He starts to hand me the lost soul and then throws the dominant Burial on the table which states "Discard any Lost Soul in play".  He then grabbed the Lost Soul and discarded it.  Is that legal?  Because at that time it was a redeemed Soul.  Also could you use that card on any Redeemed Souls?  I'm assuming NO because they are not in play.

Thanks for your help.

I don't know if it's official, but we've always played that once the LS is handed over, it becomes a Redeemed Soul. However, he could play it BEFORE he handed over the LS, and it would be buried before being redeemed. That I know is official (and I do it almost every game I play).

Even if handing it over=redeemed isn't an official ruling, trying to Bury after handing it over is at the very least poor game etiquette. It might just call for some marriage counseling.  

LOL...I just caught the last response.  He had just pulled the lost soul and put it on the middle of the table and then slapped down the dominant on top of it.  We play for ...blood.  He had a nasty white enhancement that he tried to play during that battle (sorry, I can't remember the name) that would have forced me to discard my hand and draw an entirely new one.  Fortunately I had a nice enhancement that allowed me to look in his hand and discard a white enhancement (among other things).  He was ... unable to play that enhancement...LOLOL...Love it!!!

Also, if there is more than one available LS to be rescued, using Burial on the one being handed over does not necessarily stop the Rescue either.


Godspeed,
Mike

Okay... Lamborgini I don't think is corrrect 100%. If you're in a battle and you die by the NUMBERS, you CANNOT play dominants at that point. It goes to battle resolution.

If you are in a battle and are being removed by an ABILITY, then you can play dominants before handing over the lost soul.

There's a BIG difference between the two.

I don't think so for this specific case. If you are losing by the numbers, there is no way for the attacker to know that the battle is over. Just as you could play an enhancement and keep going, you can play a dominant. (Even more so a dominant, which can be played at any time.) That would bury the LS before the battle is resolved. But your ECs would still go bye-bye.

I'm confused...I thought dominants could be played at any time.  I guess the better question would have been when does a LS become redeemed?  We had already discarded our enhancements and such.  He put out the LS in the middle of the table, but before I could get my grubby little paws on it, he put down the dominant.  His other two LS were guarded by sites I didn't have access to.  I didn't think being in battle or out of battle mattered as far as playing a dominant.  I thought the rule book said you could even play it when it wasn't your turn???

While that is true, Dominants do have to wait for instant actions to finish. Battle Resolution is instant.

Do you have a reference for this?

Okay... Lamborgini I don't think is corrrect 100%. If you're in a battle and you die by the NUMBERS, you CANNOT play dominants at that point. It goes to battle resolution.

If you are in a battle and are being removed by an ABILITY, then you can play dominants before handing over the lost soul.

There's a BIG difference between the two.

No there is not.  If you are losing by the numbers, you have initiative so you simply wait to pass initiative (and then die) until you play all the dominants you need to play before you die.  Example

I RA with Simeon, banded to Levi for a LS.

You attack with Jeering youths and play Korahs rebellion to interrupt and remove all cards from the game.

My initiative -  I play Abes servant to Ur to negate Korahs rebellion and make it FBTN banding for me.

Your initiative - You are loosing by the numbers  abd you dont have anymore enhancements so you play burial on the only LS that I am eligible for and then pass inititiative and die.  How is this different than any other weay Dominant blocks are played?

I'm confused...I thought dominants could be played at any time. 

yes and no.  They cannot be played while a Secial ability is being resolved (either a character SA or an enhancement SA)  but once all Special abilities have been resolved you can play Dominants.  For instance, You see me making a rescue attempt with Jacob  knofing I am going to band it to the captain of the Host in your territory makking it 16/15 FBTN.  You cannot stop that and you have Christiana Martyr in your hand.  so you play CM as I am moving Jacob into the field of battle.  The problem with that is that jaco's SA has already activated so even if you still want to d/c jacob with your Christian martyr, I am still going to be able to use his SA to band in Captain to make the battle FBTN.

I guess the better question would have been when does a LS become redeemed?  We had already discarded our enhancements and such.  He put out the LS in the middle of the table, but before I could get my grubby little paws on it, he put down the dominant.  His other two LS were guarded by sites I didn't have access to.

  In this example He should have given you the LS.  he can play Burial while it is in his Land of Bondage but if the battle has ben resolved (if everythign has ben discarded t hat needs tobe discarded like enhancements and characters) then the battle is over and the LS should be Transfered to yoru LoR.

The correct order of play shold have been He played burial and then began to d/c his enhancements and such (but of course you would also have the opportunity to play Harvest time to "undo" the burial and put another lS in his LoB if you had it available before the battle resolution begins)

Had it been at an official tournament game then  you would have been awarded the LS. But since it was a home game it was just a low down dirty trick. You both obviously knew what he was intendidng to do, he just did it out of order to be mean...whichc I must admit I have done from time to time as well. 

As such, he should have played Burial then, rather than playing it when he did since that violates the "select and surrender" clause. He selected, but didn't surrender.

Yeah, I just said as much in the post above, but I also noted that since it was a friendly game and not an official game, he was more guilty of bad sportsmanship than anything illegal.  They both knew what he was going to do, he just poured a little salt in the wound to spite.

First question is if i go for a battle attempt and win then lay harvest time i get a ls?
second if  my opponent goes for a ra and lays angle of the lord i die then lay chriasten m.  does it count as a succesfull block, i no playing cm is a succssesful block but is it if he angel of the lords me first??

1. In type 1 if it is a battle challenge and the defender loses and the challenger plays HT then it becomes a RA and if can be a succesful RA unless the defender has a dominant to block with (CM or Burial)  This cannot happen in type 2 because of rescuers choics.  In type 2 Harvest time has to be played before the battle begins in order to choose that lS.

2. If he plays Angel of the Lord, you can still play CM and it will be a successful block

First question, no, in the battle challenge you've already died by numbers, so you can't play dominants. It's battle resolution.

False.  It is a game rule that all dominants are considered being played during battle.  If he wins the battle challenge and then plays HT, it becomes a RA.  I don't know where you are getting all this "I died by the numbers so not nothing else can happnen" jazz.  Dominants can be played at anytime during the battle up to the point where Characters and enhancements are discarded.

@crustpope, unless battle challenges work differently, I'm am correct.

I got this from the Hormah thread. It was ruled that once the character died by numbers, hormah would work because it's a trigger, but harvest time COULD NOT be played. Tim Maly, Gabe Isbell and others comfirmed that on the thread. I'm 100% sure about this.

Haha, yes it's a worthwhile discussion that never seems to be simple. 

Keep posting questions and we'll help you out.

@ both Minister Pol and LN.  He said nothing abotu discarding anything.  From my perspective, If he is winning and his opponent cannot do anything, he can play HT before the D/C to RA a LS.  This has happened to me numerous times.  And here is a quote by Schaef discussing exactly this situation.

 

Quote from: crustpope on May 22, 2009, 09:54:02 AM

My opponents have used this against me all the time.  You may have done this against me before.  I know Soul Seeker has.  I play babylonian Banquet hall or DoU to discard all LS and then they play HT to win a LS after they are all gone.  Or I die by the numbers then play my Sog/NJ on a shuffler to protect the rescue and they play HT to pull out the hopper to rescue it.

With the evil discards, the battle does not immediately end just because a character is (instantly) discarded.  After a discard, you can play Unknown Nation or Madness to bring another EC in and continue your block.  There is a lot of breathing room at the tail end of a battle to utilize specials on Arts and Dominants.

The technical order of resolution for your numbers example, is that while your EC is in battle but still losing, you rescue your LS to take them off the table, the opponent plays his HT, and you are still in a losing situation.  The important thing to remember about being at a numerical disadvantage, is that numbers (generally) determine initiative, they do not instantly discard a character.  A character down in numbers does not die until the battle is completely over and you are doing cleanup.

Treat SoG and Harvest Time the same way you treat CM or AotL.  98% of the time, you're basically throwing them out at the end of a battle to alter the outcome before you close the door.  But for the 2% of the time when the order matters, it is important to remember that all of these cards are played during - not after - the battle phase has ended.  Number-dead guys are discarded after - not during - the battle.  You (technically) cannot declare the battle over and then Bury the LS, the proper order is that you bury, then your guy dies.  Similarly, the opponent cannot play Harvest Time and tell you that it's too late to respond because you already let your guy die.  HT must be played during the battle phase for this scenario, so your EC is still technically in-battle-and-losing, and you have an opportunity to respond, with Burial or DoU or whatever.

The battle is completely over when you are losing (not mutual) and you choose not to play anything. Even if that weren't the case, either you have a LS and HT doesn't work, or your EC is Discarded during resolution, triggering Hormah, and it's too late to HT.

First question is if i go for a battle attempt and win then lay harvest time i can go for a rescue attempt after?
second if  my opponent goes for a ra and lays aotl i die then lay chriasten m.  does it count as a succesfull block, i no playing cm is a succssesful block but is it if he angel of the lords me first??

His post said nothing about a hormah or a LS in territory.  He merely stated that he had a battle challenge and he won and then he played HT and asked if it woudl work.  Schaef's post says that when the EC is in battle and still losing (even by the numbers) HT can be played to make it a Rescue attempt. (just like SoG can be played before the EC dies to make it a battle challenge)  Losing by the numbers is not instant, even instant abilities are not instant even instant CBN abilities are not instant.  There is room after the enhancements have been played for Dom's to affect the outcome.

Now I agree with you on Hormah because the evil charachter has to be discarded FIRSt before hormah can be shuffled so if a LS is in Hormah in your territory the EC would have to be discarded before HT could be played, but if the EC is descarded, then it is already into battle resolutionand HT would have no effect on that battle.

This becomes especially apparent in a multiplayer game where Dom's fly at the end of battle all the time.  Both sides have to agree that the battle is over and the defender has to give time to let other Dom's affect the battle.  We have even forced a blocker to bring his EC back out of the d/c Pile after he/she hastily flung it there without giving people a chance to affect the battle outcome (basicallly we were saying that the battle was indeed NOT over yet)

But up until that point any eligible Dom can be played including HT (reffering back to the original question)  But it cannot be played after both people agree that the battle is over and the EC is discarded.  What I am reffereing to is toward an end of the battle situation where it looks like nothing else can be done and HT is played at the last minute to make the B/C a RA.


In all seriousness, no one should ever loose a battle challenge on defense anyway because a smart person would make sure that the B/C is going to end WAY in thier favor, if not he/she should decline it so in reality this is all complete conjecture because I dont know any respectable person who would accept a battle challenge and then not drop a CBN battle winner to totally Pwn the hero.

In all seriousness, no one should ever loose a battle challenge on defense anyway because a smart person would make sure that the B/C is going to end WAY in thier favor, if not he/she should decline it so in reality this is all complete conjecture because I dont know any respectable person who would accept a battle challenge and then not drop a CBN battle winner to totally Pwn the hero.

I loved when I got battle challenged. That meant I could block with Galba! I don't care so much if I win the battle challenge, I just want to dehand them. Sabbath Breaker too, and not just in multiplayer.

so i always thought i was good at redemption when i scraped kids at this camp every year ....then i go on here right, o my gosh was im dumb half the time im like what are they even talking about. not knowing all the abreviations hurt!

- well done boys

BC = Battle Challenge
RA = Rescue Attempt

Some ambitious fellows took some of the more common card name shorthand and came up with this:

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=7226.0

Thanks for the list of abbreviations.  That will really help out.  You're great!