Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: jbeers285 on January 19, 2018, 09:20:28 PM
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Which is the best defense in the game . . . and go
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Brown of course
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Brown, although Orange is a contender and certainly stronger than Crimson.
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Brown is slow. Gray.
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The following opinions assume a monobrigade defense in a fast, offense focused T1 deck.
Around Nats and shortly after I thought brown was absolutely the way to go but all the decks I've tested since then have had crimson out perform everything else. I have mostly tried brown and crimson, shortly followed by orange and distantly followed by grey. Playing Nebby->Dream->Disagreement is one of the best things you can do against the popular offenses these days and happens a pretty good amount of the time. Crimson has enough top tier characters and enhancements for pretty much all of your defense cards to be consistently solid options in any given battle while my experience is that brown and orange are slightly less consistent and depend more on synergy with the payoff not really being that much better, if at all, that standalone crimson value plays. Also Firefoxes belongs in literally every single defense regardless of its brigade or theme and crimson decks make it even better by being able to play enhancements on it in the rare scenario it isn't a free auto block.
I will also add a disclaimer that a large part of crimson's current superiority is Disagreement over Mark which is a very meta dependent card. Once an OT deck or two become top tier crimson will become slightly less consistent.
Brown, although Orange is a contender and certainly stronger than Crimson.
Before the recent expansions I played a lot of mono orange and even with the buffs it has received I have not gotten a well performing defense out of orange except as a splash brigade in a deck or two. I would be very interested to see a deck list with a consistent mono orange defense.
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Strictly mono defense doesn't exist . . . Brown is the best core
Gomer + Trick + Plot
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Strictly mono defense doesn't exist . . . Brown is the best core
Gomer + Trick + Plot
Plot is WAY overrated says the guy who played 3 at Nats 2016 and didn't actually need to rip 1.
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Strictly mono defense doesn't exist . . . Brown is the best core
Gomer + Trick + Plot
Plot is WAY overrated says the guy who played 3 at Nats 2016 and didn't actually need to rip 1.
Plot won me T2 hands down. I ripped 2 at the right moments to win 2 games I otherwise most likely lose. Just put'em in reserve now.
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Gray all the way!!!
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Crimson has no good “negate the last good enh” cards.
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Crimson has no good “negate the last good enh” cards.
I'll take Dream, Christians suing another and Nebby's Pride over Plot to Kill and Crucify Him any day. Gray probably has the most raw drawing power but crimson has decent speed and can actually get blocks.
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For starters I agree with Josiah that true mono brigade defenses don't really exist anymore, but if they did I'd call you crazy for not playing Crimson, the best evil enhancement in the game is Hypocrisy.
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Crimson has no good “negate the last good enh” cards.
I'll take Dream, Christians suing another and Nebby's Pride over Plot to Kill and Crucify Him any day. Gray probably has the most raw drawing power but crimson has decent speed and can actually get blocks.
Good luck getting those interrupts/negates to work when all enhancements are negated. And I have been very successful with a gray defense on several blocks that have easily won me several games.
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I like Treachery of Jezebel better than a standard "negate the last" because it can also redirect the GE. Midianite Attack is also situationally helpful as a "negate all"
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Crimson has no good “negate the last good enh” cards.
I'll take Dream, Christians suing another and Nebby's Pride over Plot to Kill and Crucify Him any day. Gray probably has the most raw drawing power but crimson has decent speed and can actually get blocks.
Good luck getting those interrupts/negates to work when all enhancements are negated.
That's what Humble is for. Also the only FBTN heroes in the meta right now are 24 Elders and perhaps a rogue Moses.
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For starters I agree with Josiah that true mono brigade defenses don't really exist anymore, but if they did I'd call you crazy for not playing Crimson, the best evil enhancement in the game is Hypocrisy.
Which is exactly why you play like 3 people who can play it in a brown base :-)
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When I said mono brigade defense I meant mostly crimson. Everyone is running Deceiver and a couple other odd off color cards but in my current Crimson defense every enhancement has crimson in it as does every character but Deceiver (Excluding reserve cards like Uzzah).
Another aspect of crimson I completely forgot to mention is Saphira. FBTN is one of the best blocks against Martyrs and crimson gives you two CBN characters to band Saphira in. Also Kings of the Earth literally steals the show by taking opponents Deceivers and Gomers (If they're still actually playing brown) in addition to banding to Saphira.
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Kings of the Earth should be in brown . . . Frog demons, not to mention Job's wife in brown and Gomer and Uzzah both fit in Brown . . . Hmm
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Kings of the Earth should be in brown . . . Frog demons, not to mention Job's wife in brown and Gomer and Uzzah both fit in Brown . . . Hmm
Kings of the Earth is terrible without Babylon for the CBN modifier. Sapphira is strictly better than Job's Wife because of banding potential. Uzzah is in every deck already and the nature of his ability makes his brigade irrelevant.
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Kings of the Earth should be in brown . . . Frog demons, not to mention Job's wife in brown and Gomer and Uzzah both fit in Brown . . . Hmm
I thought Frog Demons was auto included in any deck with it's brigades but after testing I don't run it in anything. It's a liability in many situations.
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The crimson defense in your version of our teams decks did very well.
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The major thing here is that Brown has the best synergy with Crimson and orange simultaneously. It also has some of the strongest evil battle winners in the game. It's synergy gives access to the strongest evil enhancement in the game in hypocrisy.
Any brown defense can and probably should include something like this
Gates of hell
AtD
Deceiver
Frog demons
Babylon the harlot
Lions
Hypocrisy
Reserve cards
Kings of the earth
Red dragon
Uzzah
Foreign Wives
Now play a tight 10 card brown defense with that
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The major thing here is that Brown has the best synergy with Crimson and orange simultaneously. It also has some of the strongest evil battle winners in the game. It's synergy gives access to the strongest evil enhancement in the game in hypocrisy.
Any brown defense can and probably should include something like this
Gates of hell
AtD
Deceiver
Frog demons
Babylon the harlot
Lions
Hypocrisy
Reserve cards
Kings of the earth
Red dragon
Uzzah
Foreign Wives
Now play a tight 10 card brown defense with that
I prefer being able to play all my enhancements on all my characters (Deceiver->Uzzah excluded). Cards like Gates and Dragon are win-more cards in a splash deck. If you get behind and are working with very little cards in territory/hand, I'd much rather topdeck a battle winner than an unplayable Gates or a Dragon that will die to a single GE because I have no negates in hand to back it up.
I also am not much of a fan of lions in general, my crimson defense even has a slight animal subtheme and I still don't run it.
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We must play these cards very differently. Gates of hell should win you more battles than just about any enhancement.
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We must play these cards very differently. Gates of hell should win you more battles than just about any enhancement.
Not when you draw it mid-battle. Gates is an extremely valuable card and in a vacuum more powerful than an enhancement but A. when you have it opponents can see it and play around it B. you have to have it on the table the turn before you block. And if you're behind you may not have anything to back up the guy you throw in. In the testing I have done, consistency has contributed more to winning games than potential card power.
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Crimson is typically more consistent in its lists. Example:
Disagreement Over Mark
Hypocrisy
Dissension in Antioch
Are less powerful (In a vacuum) than:
Haman's Plot
Gibeonite Trickery
Provoked
However,
The first three gain a huge power jump when you can throw them off
Simon the Magician
Sapphira
Judas Iscariot.
Which is why in some respects Crimson is considered a better defense due to its consistency and flexibility.
Now, Brown contains more blocking potential with a huge drop in consistency.
Example:
Gates of Jerusalem shell:
Manasseh
Rehoboam
Zedekiah
Amon
With:
Scattered
Plot
Provoked
Trickery
That basic shell has more potential for cheap tricks and infi-blocks than the crimson list. But the crimson list has more consistency and flexibility due to the fact its cards are just always good. I honestly do see both defenses as being super viable, but a brown list is better in a vacuum due to recursion, side battles, and much much better negates.
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How would you "play around Gates" on a consistent level? Not trolling I'm seriously asking because I'm think that pehaps I need to rethink how I play offense if your consistently getting to play around GoH.
b. You have to have a character in battle before you can play an enhancement this seems like a mute point to me. I agree that consistency is greater then power but I find Gates to be consistently powerful lol.
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How would you "play around Gates" on a consistent level? Not trolling I'm seriously asking because I'm think that pehaps I need to rethink how I play offense if your consistently getting to play around GoH.
b. You have to have a character in battle before you can play an enhancement this seems like a mute point to me. I agree that consistency is greater then power but I find Gates to be consistently powerful lol.
Attack with a Missionary and negate it Ends. There's often not even opportunity cost to this since most cards that sit in territories and affect battle are good so the negate portion of Ends struggles to find targets in many cases so negating Gates with it is practically free.
Gates gets significantly less consistent the smaller your defense becomes and these days there are so many offensive requirements that I can't find a way to cut a EC or EE without seriously regretting it.
Gates is also better in a meta where you are worried about not getting a chance to ever play an EE before you die but the best offense in a non-CoL deck is clay and clay doesn't win battles with it's characters; it uses characters to gain value and win with the value and with triple territory negates (Speech, rez, poly). You almost always have a chance when blocking martyrs to play at least one EE and if that EE is Disagreement, you just won the battle.
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Perhaps I missed something but does the phrase "not in battle" allow Ends to target cards in set aside areas?
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Perhaps I missed something but does the phrase "not in battle" allow Ends to target cards in set aside areas?
Several Redemption® cards contain abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards “not in battle” are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption.
Gates got hugely nerfed by Ends being printed.
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Wow . . . Learn something new every day. Solid Josh
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To the point about Ends...there are not a huge number of really strong missionaries outside of Barnabas, Paul and Peter.
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Crimson is typically more consistent in its lists. Example:
Disagreement Over Mark
Hypocrisy
Dissension in Antioch
Are less powerful (In a vacuum) than:
Haman's Plot
Gibeonite Trickery
Provoked
However,
The first three gain a huge power jump when you can throw them off
Simon the Magician
Sapphira
Judas Iscariot.
Which is why in some respects Crimson is considered a better defense due to its consistency and flexibility.
Now, Brown contains more blocking potential with a huge drop in consistency.
Example:
Gates of Jerusalem shell:
Manasseh
Rehoboam
Zedekiah
Amon
With:
Scattered
Plot
Provoked
Trickery
That basic shell has more potential for cheap tricks and infi-blocks than the crimson list. But the crimson list has more consistency and flexibility due to the fact its cards are just always good. I honestly do see both defenses as being super viable, but a brown list is better in a vacuum due to recursion, side battles, and much much better negates.
Couple points...
You do actually have to rip the Plot and you only have three of them for 7+ rounds and you only have one deck for top cut. Of course playing Plot gives a major advantage, but considering you can only play it in less than half your games at major tournaments makes it significantly less good.
Gib Trick is hard countered by You will Remain. You basically have to Woes it or play Trick before/after YWR unless you want to play Treasures of War which I never seem to be able to justify maindecking.
Also I don't run Dissension...
To the point about Ends...there are not a huge number of really strong missionaries outside of Barnabas, Paul and Peter.
Peter and Paul are mandatory in every clay deck, and they will continue to be until there's another offense worth playing. I'm actually running all three at the moment in my main T1 project.
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Crimson.
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Brown is a little bit faster (provoked, wickedness abounds) and more efficient with blocks, in the sense that the number of cards required for a substantial defense and at hand is small. That's really the recipe for success in tournaments and indeed Brown was successful. Crimson is still unproven, and barring the meta shift to O.T offenses, will suffer to prove itself because of its lack of ability to synergize with good offenses. But the margin between these defenses is fairly slim imo. I like crimson because it can really punish an opponents' aggro style offense with Hypocrisy+Mayhem and Great Image and better EC abilities.
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Brown also has King Saul and his cohorts (who get a huge boost from the Deceiver), all of which got me several blocks this past year. Brown I feel has more scary things than crimson, though Sapphira and those CB Enhancements are very scary. One of the reasons I ran Heavenly Temple was because of Disagreement (and of course the new FA). But brown also has a CBN dungeon that gets initiative over a lot of things, one that isn't stomped by Coliseum. Brown also has Confusion for when that becomes relevant again.
Outside of orange, I think crimson is the best splash and brown the best core.
The real Q is, why one over the other? I've been using a brown/crimson build in my deck and it's performed surprisingly well, despite not having several "power" cards (No Gib Trick, no Disagreement, etc.) purely to use Hypocrisy. It's been pretty consistent for relying on characters (and scummy).
Wow . . . Learn something new every day. Solid Josh
I feel like I even used it at one point to negate your Gates in our game. Either way, you're welcome.
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Brown also has King Saul and his cohorts (who get a huge boost from the Deceiver), all of which got me several blocks this past year. Brown I feel has more scary things than crimson, though Sapphira and those CB Enhancements are very scary. One of the reasons I ran Heavenly Temple was because of Disagreement (and of course the new FA). But brown also has a CBN dungeon that gets initiative over a lot of things, one that isn't stomped by Coliseum. Brown also has Confusion for when that becomes relevant again.
Neither Confusion nor Coliseum will ever be in future top tier T1 decks unless the game massively changes.