Author Topic: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card  (Read 5173 times)

Offline redemption collector 777

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+4
I just looked at the image of the new Christian Martyr promo card and for the most part I like most of the image

Here is a copy and paste link to the image from Land of Redemption:

http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Christian-Martyr-Nats2019.png

However there is only one part of it that causes some concern.

On the left side of the card the "martyred" person's left arm skin is being peeled off by another  person in the image and there is some red blood on the peeled skin and the arm is showing the inside of the skin.

In my opinion for what age range this game is targeted or presented to , that part of the image seems to be a little too gruesome and/or maybe a too little disturbing to me.

If the play testers or Rob were to change the image here would be some optional suggestions:

1. Use the older christian martyr image

2. or find another image completely

For example maybe finding another image similar to the disciples card Bartholomew that still shows a christian martyr but does not show any part of the human body part being removed or bloody.

Copy and paste link to the Bartholomew image card from disciples from artist Giovanni Battista Tiepolo

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/redemption/images/2/2a/Bartholomew_%28Nathanael%29_%28Di%29.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/241?cb=20130422132725


3. or maybe use the disciples Bartholomew image itself as the promo card.

Does anyone else here feel the same about this??

If so what are your thoughts or ideas regarding this??

If a majority of people have no issues with the image , then I guess I can delete this topic after a day or two.

Thoughts??
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 09:34:56 PM by redemption collector 777 »

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2019, 09:51:52 PM »
0
I completely agree.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2019, 09:53:15 PM »
0
I agree.
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 10:16:06 PM »
0
I believe the cards have already gone to print for these promos.

I appreciate the concerns regarding the art. It's something we will consider for the future.

We do have standards when it comes to things like gore, nudity, etc. for art. We feel that this particular piece of art is within (though perhaps right on) those boundaries.
Similar images already on cards include Blood of the Lamb (Clear spear puncture mark, blood dripping down the face) and Antipas (Stabbed with all kinds of arrows or spears) among others.
We're also fairly limited when it comes to our art selection process. Public Domain works are our primary source of art, and you would be amazed at how much set creation time is actually spent hunting down images.

I do appreciate the suggestion of the original Christian Martyr art and want to comment on it directly - We did look at this piece, however, when formatted for the "Borderless" technique the image unfortunately becomes rather pixelated and just not great quality.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2019, 10:22:42 PM »
0
We do have standards when it comes to things like gore, nudity, etc. for art.

I'm not sure how a man being skinned alive does not exceed the "gore" standard. You can see his actual muscle and tissue. The fact that the skinner has the bloody knife in his mouth only makes it worse. It's very unfortunate that it is too late to change this.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2019, 10:32:37 PM »
+3
We considered about a dozen different martyr pieces and agreed on the one that was used. Maybe it would be “unfortunate” if this was going to be a widely available card. But as a limited print alternative to a card every player has with “better” art, the small number of players who obtain this version aren’t forced to use it if they don’t like it.

Personally I find High Priests Maid far more offensive than anything else mentioned here but you’ll never see me up in arms about it.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:13:44 AM by Gabe »
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2019, 07:41:47 AM »
0
... but you’ll never see me up in arms about it.

The Collector's post hardly sounds like someone who is "up in arms." He even stated his willingness to concede based on the input of others. If you are just talking about me, then so be it.
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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2019, 12:44:15 PM »
0
I see the artwork as an accurate depiction of the atrocities martyred Christians have suffered and continue to suffer the world over. We are well insulated and mostly isolated (in the US) from what is a daily reality for Christian brothers and sisters in other parts of the world. But I believe the main question is -
On the left side of the card the "martyred" person's left arm skin is being peeled off by another  person in the image and there is some red blood on the peeled skin and the arm is showing the inside of the skin.

In my opinion for what age range this game is targeted or presented to , that part of the image seems to be a little too gruesome and/or maybe a too little disturbing to me.

Does anyone else here feel the same about this??

If so what are your thoughts or ideas regarding this??

The short answer for me is No.
The expanded answer is -  My upbringing is not the same as anyone else. What I have seen and experienced over the past 30+ years in my careers is not the same as anyone else and this can be said for all of us. We are united as brothers and sisters in the Lord by Christ shedding his blood to cover our sins, not by our upbringing or backgrounds. I don't sugar coat or shy away from controversy and I raised my children the same. Our very existence as Christians is controversial to this world. The Bible is full of what would be considered atrocities, but that doesn't mean we glorify it, we just face the reality of it. The artwork on Christian Martyr is simply a  depiction of one such, not a glorification of. Far more "vulgar" artwork could have been considered/chosen and I am grateful to Rob and the Elders for capturing Biblical truths and realities, however uncomfortable they may seem to some.

RDT did a good job explaining it here -
I appreciate the concerns regarding the art. It's something we will consider for the future.

We do have standards when it comes to things like gore, nudity, etc. for art. We feel that this particular piece of art is within (though perhaps right on) those boundaries.

But as a limited print alternative to a card every player has with “better” art, the small number of players who obtain this version aren’t forced to use it if they don’t like it.

I agree with Gabe on this.
I will also offer to work a deal to acquire one if a player receives one, but does not want to keep it.
I know my stance will be unpopular, but we will agree to disagree.

Godspeed,
Mike
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2019, 01:52:11 PM »
+3
I think Mike did a good job in his explanation.

I agree with everyone so far on the artwork.  It is a little hard to stomach - this type of persecution is also a reality (unfortunately).  What about the age groups of those playing the game? My kids are 3, 7, 8, and 15.  I would much rather explain to them that atrocious things like this happen and educate them than dance around issues.

There have been several times that topics come up reading through the Bible that are hard topics. They have kids Bibles, but we read through the real deal too. Again, I want to make sure they understand how the world is.

Does that give free license to whatever artwork that is come across, no.  However, I will use things like that artwork to educate them and point them to God.

Offline Master Q

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2019, 06:24:04 PM »
0
I am a bit surprised at the final choice. I don't think I would've noticed as much if it wasn't borderless, but yeah, that is kinda graphic for a borderless card. Problem is, you're going to have some of that no matter what you go with based on the nature of what it portrays. You want to show more flesh? Plenty of weirdly glorified/mixed quality crucifix paintings for that. You want perhaps a more disturbing picture of hanging bodies? Martyrs of Gorkum's got that.

While the Francisco piece wouldn't have been my first choice, I would prefer that over a blurry/"pixely" image anyday.

you would be amazed at how much set creation time is actually spent hunting down images.

I don't think I'd be that surprised. It's like a treasure hunt.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2019, 07:35:03 PM »
0
you would be amazed at how much set creation time is actually spent hunting down images.

I don't think I'd be that surprised. It's like a treasure hunt.

Truth! I can't count how many times I go looking for a piece of art and 2 hours later I've found 10 pieces that will probably be used some day but still haven't finished the card I started with.  ::)
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Offline MrMiYoda

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2019, 12:57:26 AM »
0
As one of the playtesters who did a thorough review of each card artwork, I personally did not feel that specific part of the card art in question as offensive and also felt it would be a teachable moment for me ie. for my minors.

I sincerely apologize if I have contributed to causing others to be concerned and even be offended by my approval contribution for the card art in question.

I personally honestly had subconsiously or unconsciously not considered the card offensive especially to my minors as I had witnessed a couple of young ones in the not so distant past share tbeir testimony on how they had strengthened their Faith and had gotten closer to God after watching 'The Passion of The Christ'.

When 'The Silent Scream' was shown to my students when they were barely freshmen in high school, my school was severly criticized by more than a few people including some parents. Meanwhile I know for sure that the 'gore' my kids and I had witnessed in that film has strongly cemented our stand against abortion, and the memory of more than 35 years ago is one I still celebrate.

Once again, all apologies if my 'oversight' contribution may have offended any of my brethren players.

Peace and Godbless all.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 01:09:48 AM by ReyZen »
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2019, 01:43:23 AM »
+1
I haven't posted in a while but I thought I'd break my lurking on this one.

I agree with OP on this. A person being flayed is not really appropriate for any modern card game. Period.

Flaying is one of the most horrible forms of torture and isn't something that should be shown. It's one thing to imply that this form of torture might happen to the person... but the art literally show the dude's skin being peeled off... Modern TV shows and films avoid it and even MTG of all games wouldn't have art like this in their modern sets!

If MTG and HBO's Game of Thrones avoid the subject I'm not sure how it's appropriate for Redemption to show it.

Gabe, in regards to your comment I did have a pretty big bone to pick with High Priest Maid when it came out and I know I wasn't the only one who did. I refused to use the card in my decks when it saw frequent use.

I realize you guys can't exactly recall the card if it's already gone to print but honestly, maybe that should seriously be considered.

You guys have made very few mistakes in the past 15+ years when it comes to art direction but I think this is a particularly large oversight. I don't think it would be unwarranted to do a second print run of these promos but with different art and mail them to players later.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 01:57:32 AM by Isildur »
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Offline Kor

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2019, 08:36:37 AM »
+1
The picture is pretty disturbing.  Honestly, when I first looked at it I thought 'well at least I will probably never see one of these'.  I get that Christian Martyrs ARE a disturbing subject, and that some teachable moments could come from it, I'm just glad that it isn't a part of my every day play experience.  As has already been stated in this topic, I think Redemption deals with some very brutal subject matter and finding the art to depict it well must be very hard at times (and which honestly the elders overall do a great job of!), and for this specific piece I'm not sure if it is too disturbing or not. 

Something to keep in mind though, years ago when I started playing as a teenager, I bought some redemption cards (starter deck C+D era), and there were a few that were almost so disturbing to me at the time (Kingdoms of the World and Locust from the Pit come to mind) that I considered not playing the game because of it. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 09:28:10 AM by Kor »
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2019, 09:03:32 AM »
+1
I agree i think it is too disturbing,  but we have had disturbing art in the past and im sure we will in the future too.  It just makes the game less family friendly.  These topics should nit be avoided, but they shouldnt be forced on kids either, like this will be when a 10 year old is playing someone with this card and they are forced to look at a graphic picture of literal torcher before they may be ready to see something like that.  I would like to see it changed if possible at this point, but will deal with it if it cant be.

Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2019, 09:58:58 AM »
0
Flaying is one of the most horrible forms of torture and isn't something that should be shown. It's one thing to imply that this form of torture might happen to the person... but the art literally show the dude's skin being peeled off... Modern TV shows and films avoid it and even MTG of all games wouldn't have art like this in their modern sets!

If MTG and HBO's Game of Thrones avoid the subject I'm not sure how it's appropriate for Redemption to show it.

     I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.

Godspeed,
Mike
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 10:05:16 AM by 777Godspeed »
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2019, 10:03:20 AM »
+2
It just makes the game less family friendly. 

Perhaps it belongs in its own thread, but I was thinking about this point and got to wondering: who exactly is the target audience for Redemption these days? Perhaps once it was for children, and I'm sure there are some elders who would say that the game is first and foremost a ministry tool, but I think many elders - and particularly many members of the card design team - would lean more toward saying that the target audience is high-level players, because they themselves are high-level players (and that's the demographic that makes the game most of its money).

I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I'd much rather have cards designed by people who play the game at the highest level than just have ideas tossed out by people who kinda understand the game but don't play it. That said, it can lead to situations like this where that core demographic is considered and others (like the younger players) aren't.

While there absolutely is value in showing truth, there's also tact. Passion is excellent and I'd recommend it to most Christians, but I wouldn't show it to an 8 year old. Trauma victims should have those past experiences talked about gingerly, not thrown in their face.

I seem to recall hearing at one point that there was concern about including demons in a starter deck, because some people would be driven away by it. Obviously that ship has sailed, but something similar came up again with Rapha, and there were even echoes this year with Sheol. I think that as big a concern as the hypothetical RLKs themselves is their parents - if Little Timmy comes home talking about this new card game and Mom looks it up online, if the first article she sees on LoR features a man whose skin is being ripped from his arm it seems unlikely she'd be in any rush to buy him cards.

I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.

Godspeed,
Mike

I think that's his point. If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens offscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 10:31:01 AM by Bobbert »
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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2019, 11:24:38 AM »
+4
I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.

Godspeed,
Mike

I think that's his point. If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens onscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?

     Yeah, I didn't do a very good job with my explanation and I disagree with -
If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens onscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?
Unintentionally, this says showing flaying is worse than showing the other stuff mentioned. It is not, unless someone or some perceived standard has told you it is.
      I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem. Why are we even looking to their standard? I don't think there would have been much of an outcry if a scene depicting some type of flaying would have been shown. My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK. I hope haven't muddied the water further and I don't believe Isildur or Bobbert in any way approved of the things that were shown.
     I trust Rob and the Elder Team have done their work diligently and prayerfully. I continue to pray that this game be used to transform peoples lives. We are a family. We have squabbles. We have disagreements. We have different perspectives. Many of us have spent decades of our lives together because of a game. We can agree to disagree. We are family.


Godspeed,
Mike
     
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2019, 11:28:22 AM »
0
Couldn't agree more Mike, well stated.
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Offline Sean

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2019, 06:17:39 PM »
+3
I'll come at the topic of gore by asking a question: Would you allow your (insert age) child to view the Passion of the Christ movie?

Depending on the age of your child, your answer is going to be yes or no due to the vivid depiction of Jesus' death.  If we insert the minimum age of 7 which Redemption is marketed to, is the answer yes or no?  I would submit that if the answer is no, then any artwork which would similarly depict the realities of such deaths is unacceptable to be used on a Redemption card.

I really do not think the number of cards printed should matter.  The artwork is depicted on more than just the card itself.  It is a featured topic at Land of Redemption which is a website which is frequently pointed to by anyone and everyone who plays and markets the game.

There are several cards which have artwork that I am disappointed to see on a Redemption card for being too much gore or too physically revealing.  Does that mean I never show my sons the game and forbid them playing it while under the age of 18?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it is certainly a very important topic for Cactus and the play testers to consider for any and all cards they choose to print.

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2019, 07:29:00 PM »
0
I'll come at the topic of gore by asking a question: Would you allow your (insert age) child to view the Passion of the Christ movie?

Depending on the age of your child, your answer is going to be yes or no due to the vivid depiction of Jesus' death.  If we insert the minimum age of 7 which Redemption is marketed to, is the answer yes or no?  I would submit that if the answer is no, then any artwork which would similarly depict the realities of such deaths is unacceptable to be used on a Redemption card.

I really do not think the number of cards printed should matter.  The artwork is depicted on more than just the card itself.  It is a featured topic at Land of Redemption which is a website which is frequently pointed to by anyone and everyone who plays and markets the game.



I agree that the artwork is not appropriate.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2019, 09:55:20 PM »
+1
I want to be very upfront with how much I respect the community here.

Mike, you've been around a long time and I'm pretty sure I've met you in person before, eons ago, and I have met and had friendships with many of the elders. While I no longer play... I still post and lurk on the forums because I have given a huge portion of my time and energy to the game and I still want to see it flourish.

That said... I still disagree with the stance that's being taken here.

I think that's his point. If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens offscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?
As Bobbert stated that is exactly my point.

I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.
...
I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem. Why are we even looking to their standard? I don't think there would have been much of an outcry if a scene depicting some type of flaying would have been shown. My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK. I hope haven't muddied the water further and I don't believe Isildur or Bobbert in any way approved of the things that were shown.
Mike, I don't agree with these two statements at all.

The TV Parental Guidelines Monitoring Board and Motion Picture Association of America rate all the TV and film put in theaters and major TV and cable networks. While they do not prevent the content for existing they do rate what is going to be shown and if something is too explicit they will have scenes removed or replaced before the show can air with the appropriate rating.

Are you seriously saying you never use TV, film or video game ratings to know what is in your media? I sure do!

I will avoid films or games if there is too much gore or other mature themes and I'm fairly certain I'm much more liberal with the types of media I consume. Even many of the mature elements you mentioned that are shown either occur offscreen or the content that is shown, is shown in a way not to be extremely explicit. I'm being careful with my wording as this topic is still "public" but I hope it's clear what I'm trying to say.

Sean is much better with words than I am and I think he makes a very good point that lines up with what I'm trying to say. I know if I showed this to my parents as a kid or to anyone at the church I used to attend I would not be allowed to play. Shoot growing up classic rock, Pokemon and Harry Potter were serious concerns in the conservative household I grew up in.

I really do think this needs to be thought about more. As I mentioned previously it wouldn't be uncalled for to recall the card and release a new promo in the future for to those who attended. 

I just don't feel like the answer being given be the elders really covers the concerns of those who think the art is too much.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 10:13:45 PM by Isildur »
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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2019, 10:48:15 PM »
+1
Out of all of the images to be used for CM, why THIS one, is my question.  Was the graphic nature of this picture not discussed?  And if it was, was it not deemed to be too graphic for this game?  Since it was not deemed inappropriate, why not?  I know most of this is rhetorical as it was discussed earlier by those who had a hand in making this card as to why it was chosen.  I ask because there are so many other images that could have been used instead, such as Antipas, Fifth Seal/Justice Seekers, Coliseum Lions, Faithful Witness, etc.  So what if it is the same image as one of those cards?  After all, the same image for Emp. Galba was just used to re-make Isaiah, and likewise with Emp. Otho and Jeremiah.  So why not use one of those established martyr-related images as one for the CM promo?  The images are not nearly as graphic as this CM, and they clearly portray martyrdom. 

And why wasn't something so graphic not at least put forth to the community to seek our input as to whether or not this image should be used?  Whether this card is recalled or not, I would hope that what has ensued as a result of this image being chosen (this thread) is a lesson learned to not choose such graphic imagery in the future without either first putting it forth to the community for input (effectively, this was done with an image of a shirtless man (Rapha), so why not with something that's actually graphic?), or just outright reject such a graphic image. 
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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 02:19:55 AM »
-1
That said... I still disagree with the stance that's being taken here.

It is alright we agree to disagree. I was clear from the beginning what my stance was.

I see the artwork as an accurate depiction of the atrocities martyred Christians have suffered and continue to suffer the world over. We are well insulated and mostly isolated (in the US) from what is a daily reality for Christian brothers and sisters in other parts of the world.


The artwork on Christian Martyr is simply a  depiction of one such, not a glorification of. Far more "vulgar" artwork could have been considered/chosen and I am grateful to Rob and the Elders for capturing Biblical truths and realities, however uncomfortable they may seem to some.


I know my stance will be unpopular, but we will agree to disagree.

I agree flaying is a horrible form of torture, but I would be hard pressed to cite Modern TV shows and films (HBO' Game of Thrones) as my standard to avoid it. They don't find anything particularly wrong with showing/promoting incest, homosexuality, lopping heads off, burning persons alive, orgies, hangings, lopping limbs off, poisoning or strangulation, to name a few.
...
I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem. Why are we even looking to their standard? I don't think there would have been much of an outcry if a scene depicting some type of flaying would have been shown. My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK. I hope haven't muddied the water further and I don't believe Isildur or Bobbert in any way approved of the things that were shown.
Mike, I don't agree with these two statements at all.

The TV Parental Guidelines Monitoring Board and Motion Picture Association of America rate all the TV and film put in theaters and major TV and cable networks. While they do not prevent the content for existing they do rate what is going to be shown and if something is too explicit they will have scenes removed or replaced before the show can air with the appropriate rating.

Are you seriously saying you never use TV, film or video game ratings to know what is in your media? I sure do!

I addressed the above here -
If even Game of Thrones avoids showing flaying (which, for those unfamiliar, does occur but happens onscreen) when they unflinchingly display all that other dark and disturbing content, how much more should we avoid it?
Unintentionally, this says showing flaying is worse than showing the other stuff mentioned. It is not, unless someone or some perceived standard has told you it is.    
my emphasis added.

and here -
      I don't look to the secular world, or for this discussion, Modern TV and Film industries, as my standard of why I will or won't accept/avoid something. They chose not to show flaying for reasons unknown to us, but will wholeheartedly show/promote all that I mentioned above and it gets a lukewarm "meh" with a shrug. That is a problem.
     My point of contention being, an arbitrary secular standard being cited as a standard for Redemption to accept/avoid doing something. I refuse to accept that as OK.      
again I added emphasis

and I continue to stand by -
     
     I trust Rob and the Elder Team have done their work diligently and prayerfully. I continue to pray that this game be used to transform peoples lives.     

I do not wish to derail this topic any further and this course of discussion is seemingly taking it that direction. I am glad you posted Isildur.


Godspeed,
Mike
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Offline thecoolguy

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2019, 08:15:36 AM »
0
It also just goes to show how horrid it was for the maytrs back in the day. It really stinks. I mean I am just glad it isn’t a picture of Simon the zealot who was sawed in half!
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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2019, 08:35:41 AM »
0
but I think many elders - and particularly many members of the card design team - would lean more toward saying that the target audience is high-level players, because they themselves are high-level players (and that's the demographic that makes the game most of its money).

I think that this quote by Bobbert is the true bottom line. Redemption is no longer a family-friendly game. Although I no longer host tournaments, I had still been playing and introducing the game to my students and youth group. However, I think it is simply time to walk away from Redemption completely. The decisions being made for this game overall for the past few years have been favorable to the "high-level players." I simply can no longer support a game that has lost its mission.

Whether this card is recalled or not, I would hope that what has ensued as a result of this image being chosen (this thread) is a lesson learned to not choose such graphic imagery in the future without either first putting it forth to the community for input (effectively, this was done with an image of a shirtless man (Rapha), so why not with something that's actually graphic?), or just outright reject such a graphic image.

The lesson was not learned because this is not the first time this has happened. Years back I had raised similar concerns over an image that was going to be used for Christian Soldier that had graphic images of an evil-looking Crusader that had impaled bodies in the background. That image was eventually dropped, but not after similar dialogue from the PTB. There is apparently a desire to make Redemption more graphic (perhaps because it's "cooler"?).

I guess Gabe was correct that some of us are now "up in arms" about this image (although I did not feel that about the OP) which is ironic actually when you consider the part of the image that is disturbing.  ;)
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Rawrlolsauce!

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2019, 11:10:59 PM »
+2
Note - the links in this thread are to images of paintings of the Massacre of Innocents. Both of them portray graphic violence. I also describe the photos in the post.  I'm posting this because I think the members of the forum are mature enough to decide whether or not to click them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My opinion doesn't mean much because I haven't touched Redemption since 2011 nats, but I agree the choice in imagery is a little surprising. That being said, I'm not sure where I stand on the actual artwork.

I vehemently disagree with the line of thinking that the imagery becomes more appropriate because it depicts a real phenomena. Persecution of Christians is widespread today in many parts of the world. For example, even though Iraqi Kurdistan is relatively safe today, the persecution and genocide of Yazidi Christians (especially the rape and sexual slavery of Yazidi women and children) can be displayed extremely graphically, and any such depictions become no less obscene just because they're depicting a very real issue. As important as it is to tackle these obscene issues, I'm not sure that every location is an appropriate place to do so.

Here's two painting depicting the same biblical story - the Massacre of Innocents.
Painting 1: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Rubens_-_Massacre_of_the_Innocents_-_Art_Gallery_of_Ontario_2.jpg
Painting 2: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Guido_Reni_-_Massacre_of_the_Innocents.jpg

My intuition is that painting 1 is clearly inappropriate for a Redemption card. However, painting 2 is currently the artwork for a Redemption card. And if we're giving painting 2 the label of "age-appropriate", then it's hard for me to argue painting 1 is somehow more graphic. Both seem like they'd be highly inappropriate for Redemption - which is where I would also place the Christian Martyr art posted in OP.

-------------------

That being said, here's where I'm struggling with all of this and why I said I'm not sure where I stand:
The Christian God is the God of the Poor. Dominican Priest Herbert McCabe once summarized it as "We have to recognize that the only God we know is the God of the poor, the God who takes sides." In the gospels, every single time Jesus has the choice (with perhaps the exception of the woman he called a dog), he always takes the side of the poor or the marginalized or the disabled or the outcast or the tax collector. In American Evangelicalism there's been a trend to censor this and claim that all are poor and contort the sermon on the mount to make the God of the bible the god of America, but the fact is that I, like most Americans, would have been more likely aligned with Pharoah or Nebuchadnezzar or Ceasar in their respective stories.

And although I'm not poor, I've been traveling a lot since graduating college, and have really started to see what oppression and poverty and marginalization means on the global scale. I've been to war torn countries like Iraq and Syria (which I won't go into - as I assume we all know what's happening there), or impoverished countries like Madagascar (which has over 75% of the population living on less than $1.90 a day, and over 97% living on less than $5.50 a day), or countries recovering from genocide like Rwanda and Cambodia, or countries with all of the above like the Congo. And from all this, I've come to see that those cultures have a very different definition of obscene than me.

For example, in Liberia, brutal depictions of gore are less obscene than this image: https://i.imgur.com/K0vNSaN.jpg. It's not individual depictions of specific events that are grotesque, but rather, what's grotesque is the experience of oppression and marginalization.

And so I guess that gets to my point - going back to the Rubens picture, I said I felt like something like that (along with the Christian Martyr card) would be inappropriate for Redemption due to some of the imagery. There's a lot going on in that image that I consider highly graphic - the murder of children, a mother in the bottom right mourning over her dead child, the mother in the middle trying to protect her child from murder to no avail, an old women unable to protect herself, a woman in the middle unable to protect her child as a soldier grabs her by the hair, women on the left cowering in fear as a child reaches towards what looks like the body of his brother, a woman in the background trying to shelter her child as a man swings a sword, a woman running from her persecutors, and so on.

To me, all of those are obscene. But I'm not sure if that's actually true. Is the depiction of this obscene, or is it the actual experience that's obscene? And if it's the experience, and not the depiction, both are trying to communicate the same experience, and shouldn't both therefore be obscene?

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2019, 11:19:20 PM »
0
And I tried editing my last post to say this but hit the character limit: obviously I'm bringing up a different example for this discussion, but I'm drawing analogy to why I'm not sure if the Christian Martyr image is or isn't appropriate, and I can draw clearer analogy using an extreme example.

Offline Isildur

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2019, 02:18:37 AM »
+1
Holy cow Rawrlolsauce. Respect man. You put a lot of thought and effort into your post and brought up a very philosophical discussion. I do think I can answer the quoted question. I think this question boils down to the core of the discussion regarding the art.

My intuition is that painting 1 is clearly inappropriate for a Redemption card. However, painting 2 is currently the artwork for a Redemption card. And if we're giving painting 2 the label of "age-appropriate", then it's hard for me to argue painting 1 is somehow more graphic. Both seem like they'd be highly inappropriate for Redemption - which is where I would also place the Christian Martyr art posted in OP.
I think it's pretty easy to label one as being too graphic and the other not. They both have the same subject matter. One contains "graphic" nudity and the other does not. The reason one is ok and the other isn't is because of the nudity contained.

The difference is that the subject matter or other "graphic material" (such as the nudity in this example) is implied at and NOT explicitly shown makes all the difference.

To look to film again and compare two famous films. It's the difference between Schindlers List and The Boy in the Striped Pajamas. Both cover the atrocities of the Holocaust. One film is incredibly graphic and shows exactly what happens, no panning away. The second shows the same atrocities but cuts away and implies what happens. One is rated PG-13 and the other is an incredibly hard R.

Both cover the same material and have similar emotional impacts. Both, along with The Pianist, are some of the greatest films ever to be made on the subject. One is just far more graphic than the other. One is appropriate for a wide range of audiences. The other is not.

Art is incredibly broad by nature. The standards of the Renaissance and Baroque periods of art are not the same ones we have. This art was originally made to be hung in the halls of kings, queens and the richest patrons in the land. Not to be viewed by kids or the average joe. Just because it's old or hangs in a museum doesn't make it instantly appropriate.

Myself and others are not saying we should cover up and ignore the subject matter. Torture has happened in the bible and in history and it should not be glossed over.

But it should not be explicitly or "graphically" shown in a CCG or board game.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 02:23:12 AM by Isildur »
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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2019, 09:48:29 AM »
+1
As an aside, I would like to thank the Elders for their patience in letting this thread run its course. Letting the community speak its mind respectfully brings such great insight, such as we have seen here even from people who no longer frequent the boards. I think these discussions are healthy.

Please don't take my decisions about Redemption's progression over the years as anger. I understand that the game needed to change for the sake of primary playgroups. I only speak from my personal target audience, which has always been on the younger side since I am a teacher. I don't feel that Redemption is a good sell for that crowd anymore, and it doesn't have to be. With games like Animo entering the fray that more specifically target younger players, I think that there are other options available to people like me, when there really wasn't before.

The decisions for Redemption's future lie in the hands of some very dedicated and capable hands. The amount of work and hours put into this game by the Elders, Playtesters, Resellers, and even just hardcore players deserves credit and respect, both of which I humbly offer.  :grouphug:
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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2019, 01:23:09 PM »
0


That being said, here's where I'm struggling with all of this and why I said I'm not sure where I stand:
The Christian God is the God of the Poor. Dominican Priest Herbert McCabe once summarized it as "We have to recognize that the only God we know is the God of the poor, the God who takes sides." In the gospels, every single time Jesus has the choice (with with perhaps the exception of the woman he called a dog]

That's the problem with the Christian God. He is man-made. The real God loves everyone with a reckless and ruthless love. The real God love people like Jesus did. Sometimes that means snuffing out people(s) who are ruthless to others (a certain Assyrian siege army), but sometimes he waits to teach valuable lessons about him self to all parties involved. For example, in the Exodus, he freed the Israelite's from slavery and their false world view about God [that the Israelite's were slaves because they were disobedient to God], proved to Pharaoh and his wicked magicians that their world view was false (The plagues and defeat of pharaoh's  army were all signs to the Egyptians that there is only one God, and Pharaoh is NOT ra incarnate), and got revenge on Egypt for ''forgetting'' about Joseph's wisdom, kindness, and bilateral good will. So I don't buy this lie that the '' the only God we know is the God of the poor and the the God who takes sides''; that's very close to a perfect description of Satan, because all you have to do is replace 'God' with 'Satan' and 'poor' with 'poor in spirit'.

Interestingly enough, I am pretty sure that the Women at the Well exception was simply Jesus telling the truth..... the ''truth'' that the 12 apostles had heard all of their lives.... A Samaritan Woman was probably considered the lowest form of human then (an perhaps now too).  Either way, that quote is so mindbogglingly, un-profound that I just powered the neighborhood. Obviously, God takes sides. He takes everyone's side. The word of God is a doubled edged sword. This sword defends the poor/weak from the rich/powerful. But when the poor and weak behave/live like animals God let's the rich and powerful end their life like a kind farmer kills cattle; however, when another hyena treats another hyena like a jackal, the Lion of Judah will get involved. Unfortunately, Jesus has to battle youthful, hard-hearted, sinners resistant to change and old, "wise'' men all the time; wise men who pretend that switching the order they put on their wolves and sheeps clothing actually matters  :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 01:32:07 AM by TheHobbit »

Offline Sean

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2019, 04:45:27 PM »
+5
Quote from: Watchman
And why wasn't something so graphic not at least put forth to the community to seek our input as to whether or not this image should be used?
I feel as though you are saying that the elders are required to seek the opinion of the masses.  If that is true, I do not agree.  Elders are elders because they have proven themselves to be trustworthy.  Democracy breaks down very quickly when more and more people are involved.  Its great that the elders are very open with what is going on but to expect they would seek the community's input on something which is intended to be a surprise is silly.

I am in agreement with Mike in as much as we should trust the elders to do a good job.  We should also expect mistakes since they are human and we shouldn't expect to agree with everything they decide.  Sometimes they may end up changing the decision but other times they will not. 

Quote from: YMT
The decisions being made for this game overall for the past few years have been favorable to the "high-level players." I simply can no longer support a game that has lost its mission.
I think you're going overboard when it comes to losing the mission.  I also do not have a lot of knowledge of what has transpired recently.  Is the stated mission still to promote Christian fellowship?  I'm not really sure if the art chosen for this special CM promo is detrimental to the mission but I definitely know that the elders who were making the decision had good intentions.
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kariusvega

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2019, 06:26:18 PM »
0
I think you're going overboard when it comes to losing the mission.  I also do not have a lot of knowledge of what has transpired recently.  Is the stated mission still to promote Christian fellowship?  I'm not really sure if the art chosen for this special CM promo is detrimental to the mission but I definitely know that the elders who were making the decision had good intentions.

I mean honestly guys I shed a tear almost every time I really look at the current Christian Martyr seeing Christ...

It is definitely difficult to portray this harsh reality in any way but that. Consistently the Elders have chosen fine art work and this example is definitely up to par in terms of quality. The depiction is graphic, but this card is not in heavy rotation and you do not have to choose this version to play or look at it intensely while playing.

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2019, 07:28:09 PM »
0
Quote from: Watchman
And why wasn't something so graphic not at least put forth to the community to seek our input as to whether or not this image should be used?
I feel as though you are saying that the elders are required to seek the opinion of the masses.  If that is true, I do not agree.  One reason Elders are Elders is because they have proven themselves to be trustworthy.

FTFY and now I agree with your post as it is written, though without the revision I agree with the sentiment.  The Elders have generously made tournament winner prizes. Good. The art is separate and so you are very wrong for saying that we should just agree with what the Elders say. The Elders are Elders for many reasons so it does not follow that we have to be in agreement with whatever they do, and human error is very real. As for the actual art, however, I am pretty sure either way works. It is a matter of opinion. Church tradition suggests that Peter was Martyred, and imo was being a complete fool. So for those you who do not like evil being glorified in a children's game and don't understand that good is always more powerful than evil in the context of the game agree with my opinion of Peter and you'll be fine.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Concerns about image of the Christian Martyr 2019 promo card
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2019, 07:37:53 PM »
+2
I think you're going overboard when it comes to losing the mission.

I tried to clarify this in my next post, but I admit that the statement you quoted was misleading. I was referring to the mission that I had used Redemption for, which was reaching primarily middle school students in the schools and churches I have worked at over the years.
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