Author Topic: Competitive Side of Redemption (Read 5507 times)

jbeers285 · « **on:** April 14, 2015, 01:11:52 PM »

After listening to the RMG podcast on landofredemption.com, I wanted open a board discussion up about the competitive aspect of redemption.

Currently I agree with Alex and Andrew that the game would be a better game if a higher level of competitive play was established. Perhaps "better" isn't the right word here but, I think "better" does apply for people who want to play at a higher level.

Personally I have been 98% positive about where redemption is heading. In recent weeks I have shifted slightly. I have felt frustrated in the pursuit of a meta or a new idea for a deck. It has felt like the community who has been working out a meta is only 4-5 people wide. This makes it impossible to establish a meta. I think the small amount of investment community wide to generate a meta is due to a lack of a competitive edge. Top players and great redemption minds are investing their time in other areas because no challenge exisists in redemption.

With all that said I know many players of redemption will be against a move towards a higher level of competition but I'd like to ask you a few questions.
1. If a higher level of competition drew in a larger player base wouldn't that benefit the game?
2. Wouldn't a larger more competitive player base increase the number of set releases?
3. Wouldn't a larger player base produce a potential for Rob to make a profit in redemption? Doesn't that lead us to believe he could then invest more resoucres into redemption?
4. Doesn't more money, more cards, more players lead to a greater potential for spiritual impact on a larger base of players?

At this point I feel like I've only presented a problem and asked some questions. I'd like to voice a possible answer.

What if we created an elevated level of tournament play? I am not talking about eliminating the community aspect of Cactus sanctioned tournaments but rather creating an additional tournament circuit.

For instance have qualifiers that allow you to enter a tournament. Create a scenario where you have to have won a district tournament or placed at states or higher in-order to even enter this upper category of tournament.
It could be called a "Tournament of Champions Circuit".

I have more thoughts on this but this is a good starting place for discussion.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2015, 01:52:42 PM »

Is the competitive edge lacking because of not enough people or lack of new and effective strategies? See I didn't like pokemon the best because there are more top tier decks, but most are lacking in originality. They all were minor variations of certain popular decks. I love redemption, and would like to see that happen, however I'm not sure this would bring in more people. I think you may have a good idea for the elevated tournaments though.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2015, 02:10:03 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 14, 2015, 01:11:52 PM

1. If a higher level of competition drew in a larger player base wouldn't that benefit the game?

Why do you think higher level competition would equate to a larger player base? Your post seems predicated on this point, but I do not understand why you think it to be so.

My feeling is that the opposite is true... A large and devoted following leads to larger, more competitive tournaments. A:NR, for example, is in the process of evolving in precisely this way.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2015, 02:40:40 PM »

The reason I started playing hearthstone was for a new challenge. The competitive level of redemption is not driving me or keeping me around. So I guess the idea that competitive play attracts players for me is based on my own expirience, granted its anecdotal evidence. i don't have some website to back it up but I also believe a competitive player base would help us retain players.

Master KChief · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2015, 02:59:05 PM »

Wasn't uthminister working on some sort of tournament circuit akin to Star City Games Open Series?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2015, 03:01:24 PM »

In the long wrong competition should increase player pool but not in the short run. And even then I know many people who have quit because they feel the game is too competitive for a Christian ccg. The problem with Redemption is that is it is mechanically inferior in terms of strategy to many other ccgs. Strategy builds competition. As for the circuit it sounds like a good idea but a bit unfair for stronger regions.

kariusvega · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2015, 03:30:02 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 14, 2015, 02:10:03 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 14, 2015, 01:11:52 PM
1. If a higher level of competition drew in a larger player base wouldn't that benefit the game?
Why do you think higher level competition would equate to a larger player base? Your post seems predicated on this point, but I do not understand why you think it to be so.

My feeling is that the opposite is true... A large and devoted following leads to larger, more competitive tournaments. A:NR, for example, is in the process of evolving in precisely this way.

I feel like this is the whole reason that Lackey is so great! Once the Lackey Redemption experience is made more like Hearthstone with automated scripting and sweet animations I could see a lot more people picking it up (simply due to dramatically reducing confusion in card combos, combinations, phases, etc.) which could easily serve as a cross platform to real life tournaments. I would love to see cards I order in game arrive on my doorstep a week later so I can build the decks in person.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2015, 04:12:38 PM »

I am currently putting the finishing touches on something like what is being discussed here. The idea is that higher amounts of prizes will draw more competitive players and benefit the game of Redemption across the board. I am not limiting the participation in higher level tournaments to winners of lower level events, but am offering a qualifier feel to those who win a lower level event by giving them free entry into higher level events. I don't want to reveal my entire hand right now but I will be making a fairly big announcement in the next couple weeks.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2015, 05:05:58 PM »

I don't think you can make a tournament series and just expect people to come.

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 14, 2015, 03:01:24 PM

I know many people who have quit because they feel the game is too competitive for a Christian ccg.

This is a big issue that we also talked about. Redemption is seen first as a Christian game rather than a competitive game.

Quote from: Eragon5 on April 14, 2015, 01:52:42 PM

Is the competitive edge lacking because of not enough people or lack of new and effective strategies? See I didn't like pokemon the best because there are more top tier decks, but most are lacking in originality. They all were minor variations of certain popular decks.

You'll find the same is more or less true among top tier Redemption players. (and anybody who disagrees with me is obviously not top tier). And literally every other card game.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2015, 05:49:23 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 14, 2015, 01:11:52 PM

I wanted open a board discussion up about the competitive aspect of redemption.

actually competitive is me rage quitting after my opponent gets ahead by one lol kidding.
but to be honest, that idea in my opinion is very iffy cause what about those who have participated in tournaments and not once placed within the top 5?im not sure about that idea cause that is the kind of tournament that wouldn't really bring in a larger player base because of the fact it would be so EXCLUSIVE which I would assume isn't what God intended. I mean put it this way; look at the fact that eternal life through Christ is available to any and all who want to come to him and submit their lives to him
I know this might not be a good analogy to consider but if God had intended for anything to be exclusive then eternal life. so with that being said, with this being a Christian card game, what would be the point in an exclusive tournament? but it would be difficult to come up with ideas for a higher level of play but what we need to do for competitive play is come up with something to increase the level of play andstill make tournaments available for anyone to participate. and I just thought of one; what about splitting up the majority or minority of redemption players by age? so kids could have a chance at championship without worrying about the big dogs knocking their chances down. I mean have a special type of tournament play like an "adult circuit" and a "kids circuit"

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2015, 06:01:16 PM »

I actually like that idea and may run with it in the future; perhaps something similar to the Type-A event at Nationals but on a farther reaching scale. That won't see the light of day with TLG events for at least the first year however cause the stuff we will be testing initially decided already.

dermo4christ · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2015, 06:17:56 PM »

After reading all of these posts, as competitive as I am (eventhough I don't get to many tournies), my fear is that this game has lost some importance. I started playing this game after I rededicated my life to the Lord and strayed away, thankfully, from MTG. I was very pleased to realize that Rob created this game to establish a witness for Christianity and to attract these types of gamers. I think some, not all, have put a competitive emphasis on the game and lost sight as to why the game was created. Josiah, I do see your point in having a higher level of competition for those that are extremely successful and top notch players. On the other hand, we have to be careful as to how competitive we get. We can't make allow the game and our competitive natures get in the way of allowing the game to help lead others to Christ. From personal experience, I sometimes lose sight of the game's importance through my own competitive nature. I love going to tournaments to be able to play the game with other people outside my playgroup, but, there are times, when I play people that have been playing this game since it's beginning, I get frustrated when I can't win and Satan uses that against me. So to make the long story short, I see, Josiah, your point, but, in turn, let's be careful as to not let our competitiveness come in over our hearts to God. That being said...I LOVE ALL YALL!

Josh · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2015, 06:28:20 PM »

One thing that Redemption needs is a big online presence, since it has fewer players than other comparable games. Players like me that have no play group need these boards and online games to stay involved. But I also can't spend an hour or two trying to find a game... If I get the free time to play, I need to play and be done.

That being said, one thing that helped me in the past was ROOT. When I had a game scheduled every week, I made a commitment to play that game, and you could schedule it with your opponent. It's easy for me to find excuses not to start playing again online when I feel no obligation to. Plus, ROOT would draw a majority of the more competitive players, so it had the feel of a tournament every time. I'd love to bring back ROOT, even run it if I have to, if there is enough support for it.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2015, 06:32:56 PM »

An exclusive tournament is not meant to push people away but rather give a goal to work towards. At this point there is very little for a goal oriented person to work towards in redemption. I also tried to make it clear this "higher" level tournaments would not replace cactus sanctioned tournaments.

As for honoring Christ, how does upping the level of competition for a group of players eliminate the ability to honor God?

New Raven BR · « **Reply #14 on:** April 14, 2015, 06:56:00 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 14, 2015, 06:32:56 PM

An exclusive tournament is not meant to push people away but rather give a goal to work towards. At this point there is very little for a goal oriented person to work towards in redemption. I also tried to make it clear this "higher" level tournaments would not replace cactus sanctioned tournaments.

As for honoring Christ, how does upping the level of competition for a group of players eliminate the ability to honor God?

im already having a hard time as it is, even with newer cards and ive been in this game for a decade

kariusvega · « **Reply #15 on:** April 14, 2015, 08:34:06 PM »

Newbs biggest problem with Redemption is order of operations/chains of abilities.

Hearthstone's biggest advantages over Redemption:
1. Online easy access to games, anytime.
2. Scripting of game play to make it smooth and streamlined. When you select a card or a target you can or cannot do things with it. That simple.

Making an online version of Redemption with scripted abilities will allow for players to reference the game rather than having to search the boards or reference the Reg for vague possible answers to questionable commands. This will absolutely have a positive impact on the size and retention rate of the game itself simply for being understood as played rather than in question to begin with.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 14, 2015, 10:56:14 PM »

Quote from: Westy on April 14, 2015, 05:05:58 PM

I don't think you can make a tournament series and just expect people to come.

Try telling Skaff Elias and Mark Rosewater that.

Quote from: kariusvega on April 14, 2015, 08:34:06 PM

Hearthstone's biggest advantages over Redemption:

The ability to create a greatly simplified game from scratch; one whose design focused on ease of implementation and being newb friendly.
140 man-years of dedicated development staff.
The financial backing of a company with $750 million in annual revenue.

Quote

Making an online version of Redemption with scripted abilities...

Anyone who is interested in exploring this should probably take a quick gander of what an OCTGN implementation would take.

I would be willing to donate the time/resources necessary to get an online card/image database web API whipped up. (Provided Cactus would approve such a project.)

dermo4christ · « **Reply #17 on:** April 14, 2015, 11:38:14 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 14, 2015, 06:32:56 PM

An exclusive tournament is not meant to push people away but rather give a goal to work towards. At this point there is very little for a goal oriented person to work towards in redemption. I also tried to make it clear this "higher" level tournaments would not replace cactus sanctioned tournaments.

As for honoring Christ, how does upping the level of competition for a group of players eliminate the ability to honor God?

1st part: Understood

2nd Part: I'm not saying that upping the competition level eliminates the ability....I'm saying that, since Redemption is a very competitive game, we can easily let our guard down and let our competitive nature get in the way of honoring God with a humble spirit. This is why I don't play online anymore...for my own person. As I said before, I am very competitive and every online game inside and outside of ROOT I've lost. You remember that game you and I played where I made a misplay and didn't put SOG on top after revealing it with Basin and not discarding it with the deck discard soul? You were very kind to me and would have allowed to replay the move, but, by the grace of God, I was able to play fair and take my mistake and take the loss. I soooo wanted to replay it but that wouldn't have been very honorable to God, in my opinion. I almost let my personal frustration get in the way of what was right. That's all I meant by allowing our competitiveness get in the way...didn't want to come across arrogant...

jbeers285 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2015, 02:15:22 AM »

Robin, I didn't think you came across arrogant, not at all. That said I don't believe competitive drive in itself is sinful. I believe it's the attitude of our hearts that matters.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2015, 03:35:10 AM »

Age divisions

New Raven BR · « **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2015, 08:57:27 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on April 15, 2015, 03:35:10 AM

Age divisions

that's what im saying

Quote from: New Raven BR on April 14, 2015, 05:49:23 PM

I just thought of one; what about splitting up the majority or minority of redemption players by age? so kids could have a chance at championship without worrying about the big dogs knocking their chances down. I mean have a special type of tournament play like an "adult circuit" and a "kids circuit"

Chris · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2015, 01:27:40 PM »

There's no monetary value in being a top-tier Redemption player.

This year the national tournament is about eight hours from me. If I came, it would come out to maybe $100 for the entire trip, including gas, food, and tournament fees. I think we can all agree that that's pretty cheap. But here's the thing, I can walk in, win T12P, and I would still be losing money. I could win multiple categories at the biggest tournament of the year and barely break even. And that's only if I value card packs at all, which I probably don't, since if I'm in a position to be winning multiple categories at the national level, I'm probably not hurting for cards. I have zero chance of recouping the cost to make it to tournaments regardless of how good I am. Unlike the four major CCGs, Redemption is something you will always lose money on.

There's no prestige in being a top-tier Redemption player.

Simply put, less excellent players are making it to any given national tournament than say, five years ago. I managed to make it into the final four last year, and I place absolutely no stock in that, because the field was so shallow. Making top cut last year was the equivalent of making it into the top 15 the year before, because the field lacked top talent like Martin, Westy, Alex, and Matt. I could literally walk into the national tournament this year, somehow win every category, and it would be pretty meaningless, because I would have had to have beaten less great players in order to do it, and people just don't care as much as they used to. I was on board with the competitive side of Redemption for years even with the lack of any monetary incentive because at least you might be respected in the community, but at this point, you don't even get that. Literally every single legitimate competition in the entire world is going to net you money, prestige, or both. Without either, it's hard to get excited about playing Redemption at a high level.

Redemption's culture is extremely anti-competition.

There are a lot of people who simply don't like serious competition. One needs look no further than arguments we've had about top cut or time limits to see that.

None of this is really a problem if you're only into Redemption for the fellowship side of it. I play CCGs as a competitive outlet though, and over the last two years, I've been less and less incentivized to treat Redemption seriously. There are other CCGs out there that are more what I'm looking for, and so I've moved on, as have others like me. I'm not worried about fighting any battles for the competitive side of Redemption anymore, because those are battles that'll be lost anyway. If you mourn the competitive side of Redemption, your best bet is going to be to find a new hobby.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2015, 02:39:04 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on April 15, 2015, 02:15:22 AM

That said I don't believe competitive drive in itself is sinful. I believe it's the attitude of our hearts that matters.

I'm in agreement here. Why is being competitive a bad thing? I'm competitive for sure, but with our play group being younger players, I adjust obviously to my competition. I'm technically not a top tier player (haven't won at Nationals yet), but I've only been to one and that was the last one here in Knoxville and I was a brand new player then and have place in many other tournaments since then (Regionals). I do think there needs to be more division at the higher level tournaments, i.e: Top Tier=National Winners/Regional Winners and so forth as qualifiers of a current season and previous seasons. It's not fair for the 13 year old player who has been playing for less than a year to face me at a tournament or let's say a Beers or Alstad (no disrespect to the many I've omitted) at Nationals. This is one area that needs to be cleaned up for sure, because being smoked by better players constantly is no fun. That's why Crash and I play leveled decks against our group. I like to be competitive and I believe it's a great aspect of the game and also is a great teacher for my own boys. When you lose, don't pout or throw a hissy fit (they're 10,7,6). Yes be competitive, and respectful, and a good sport. Everyone wants to win "at a game",I put this in quotes because it is a game. Yes, it can be a witness and should be, but at the end of the day...or eternity, no ones going to care who won T1 at 2015 Nationals...

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 11, 2015, 04:10:04 PM »

If you do high cut a low cut what is the point of even playing at nationals if you don't make it. I would rather lose all of my games playing the top competition then win them all playing mediocre competition. If anything this top category should go on in the after hours, which is probably feasible because of the low numbers.

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** May 11, 2015, 04:26:26 PM »

While I don't ever expect Redemption to be competitive in the same way the "big four" CCGs are, for the reasons Chris eloquently laid out, there will be new incentive and prestige for winning this year. Expect an official announcement on Land of Redemption next week.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #25 on:** May 11, 2015, 04:28:33 PM »

I can't go either way because I have a wedding the same weekend, but Gabe is going to have to have something good to make it worthwhile.

Chris · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2015, 11:43:28 PM »

I meant to put more into my original post but just completely forgot, so I'll say what I had to say here. I don't think anyone would argue that having a competitive drive is sinful, as long as it's engaged in a constructive manner. Even people who decry the more competitive aspects of Redemption like YMT tend to also enjoy football. I'm to a point now though where I question whether any kind of serious competitive angle on Redemption is feasible. I think the time limit issue is extremely illustrative of this. Given that we have rules in place for how long each phase of a turn can take, it's only natural that we allow players to bring timers of their own to the table in order to keep track, if they so choose. At the same time though, I think it would be difficult to defend this practice in Redemption in light of Rob's steadfast commitment to "fun and fellowship." It's not that bringing a timer is sinful, but it's clearly not conducive to the type of atmosphere Rob wants and has worked to bring to Redemption. There are a number of issues like these that, I believe, require Rob to choose between the option that will instill the fairest level of serious competition and the option that is the most welcoming and friendly, and Rob will pick the latter every single time.

As I mentioned before, Redemption currently lacks any major monetary incentive to do well. If that changed and there was suddenly a major monetary prize for winning categories, Rob's philosophy on competition vs. fun and fellowship would have to change. Players won't be willing to pay exorbitant sums in tournament fees without a rule set built on the pillar of competition, and neither will sponsors. Given that these are the only two ways for such a prize pool to come into existence, something would have to give. That said, I'm excited to see what Gabe's announcement is.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 12, 2015, 01:16:31 AM »

My guess is playtester status or a goat

Redoubter · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2015, 01:25:59 AM »

To those who may have had their posts removed: Your posts were completely off-topic and worded to cause argument. Please see your PMs.

Thank you

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2015, 10:58:48 AM »

Quote from: Chris on May 11, 2015, 11:43:28 PM

Even people who decry the more competitive aspects of Redemption like YMT tend to also enjoy football.

Understand, though, that I have the same problems with both. The higher the stakes, the more lengths that people will go to win, even if it means cheating. As a Patriots fan, I have to accept the fact that my team was willing to bend/break the rules to help them win, not only this year (Deflategate), but in the past (Spygate). Now I do not want to derail this thread, since there is already a football thread, but my point is that I have already seen this mentality at my higher level Redemption tournaments. The "win at all costs" mentality is fueled by competition for prizes. The higher the prize, the farther people are willing to push their integrity.

The problem, of course, is that the people who push the limits do not see themselves as pushing their integrity. They usually say, "I don't see anything wrong with what I did," and will then defend their actions vigorously. Meanwhile, the outside world just looks at them with disdain. I just don't feel that is how the outside world should view Redemption players. We should be different. That is my only take.

Realize that my view is based off vey bad experiences, and off the specific feedback I have gotten from my former players and their parents. Also understand that my player base tends to be very young. So my opinion is based off the atmosphere I wish to create at my tournaments. Could the National Tournament be a completely different atmosphere? Sure. But that won't ever include me anyway (by my choice), so my opinion does not need to be factored into Natz thinking.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2015, 11:19:35 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 12, 2015, 10:58:48 AM

Quote from: Chris on May 11, 2015, 11:43:28 PM
Even people who decry the more competitive aspects of Redemption like YMT tend to also enjoy football.

Understand, though, that I have the same problems with both. The higher the stakes, the more lengths that people will go to win, even if it means cheating. As a Patriots fan, I have to accept the fact that my team was willing to bend/break the rules to help them win, not only this year (Deflategate), but in the past (Spygate). Now I do not want to derail this thread, since there is already a football thread, but my point is that I have already seen this mentality at my higher level Redemption tournaments. The "win at all costs" mentality is fueled by competition for prizes. The higher the prize, the farther people are willing to push their integrity.

The problem, of course, is that the people who push the limits do not see themselves as pushing their integrity. They usually say, "I don't see anything wrong with what I did," and will then defend their actions vigorously. Meanwhile, the outside world just looks at them with disdain. I just don't feel that is how the outside world should view Redemption players. We should be different. That is my only take.

Realize that my view is based off vey bad experiences, and off the specific feedback I have gotten from my former players and their parents. Also understand that my player base tends to be very young. So my opinion is based off the atmosphere I wish to create at my tournaments. Could the National Tournament be a completely different atmosphere? Sure. But that won't ever include me anyway (by my choice), so my opinion does not need to be factored into Natz thinking.

I think this basically summarizes, for better or worse, why Redemption is and will always be how it is. It's not bad, it's just not what excites me the most about a game, and I have some different thoughts about how prizing changes things etc, but I know it's not mainstream and that's fine.

KingLeo · « **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2015, 01:53:36 PM »

On replying to the lack of making a meta. To my understanding a meta is a deck concept or combo that is so good that it should be put in every deck and 90% of the time that concept and or combo of cards works flawlessly and either makes you win or helps you alot in winning. But the thing about redemption is that depending on the opponent's play style, draw, dominants, lost souls, combos, and all abilities, No one deck can truly always beat or have a high win ratio against every deck. The reason for this is play style. Me personally I can play philistines better than anyone I know yet people consider them bad. On the same hand I can wield a pharisee defense very well as well but because of the way I play and create my offenses out of instinct often fit the Phillies better! And if you put a magician defense in my deck, I will know how to play it but I can never ever win with it.

So my point is that the reason for a lack of meta may be more because of the specific way the game is created rather than a lack of effort. How can you create a meta when in reality is that most of the time its the unique of the wall decks that work? A good example of this is the New York Nationals.

Thanks, KingLeo

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2015, 02:03:35 PM »

That can be said of any game and is certainly not unique to Redemption. In any game every top player can use any top tier deck effectively, adjusting his/her play style accordingly. If you can't then that not because of Redemption its because of you. The rest comes down to draw, game play, and match ups but again similar to other ccgs.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #33 on:** May 12, 2015, 04:37:38 PM »

Quote from: KingLeo on May 12, 2015, 01:53:36 PM

On replying to the lack of making a meta. To my understanding a meta is a deck concept or combo that is so good that it should be put in every deck and 90% of the time that concept and or combo of cards works flawlessly and either makes you win or helps you alot in winning.

But the thing about redemption is that depending on the opponent's play style, draw, dominants, lost souls, combos, and all abilities, No one deck can truly always beat or have a high win ratio against every deck. The reason for this is play style. Me personally I can play philistines better than anyone I know yet people consider them bad. On the same hand I can wield a pharisee defense very well as well but because of the way I play and create my offenses out of instinct often fit the Phillies better! And if you put a magician defense in my deck, I will know how to play it but I can never ever win with it.

So my point is that the reason for a lack of meta may be more because of the specific way the game is created rather than a lack of effort. How can you create a meta when in reality is that most of the time its the unique of the wall decks that work? A good example of this is the New York Nationals.

Thanks, KingLeo

A meta is the collection of decks that people play at tournaments. In Redemption, the metagame among top tier players might be composed of Disciples, The Deck, Judges, Hand Discard, and Early Church.

No one deck can have a high win ratio against every deck in any game. This is where the metagame comes in. It's the game within the game. It's about predicting what other people will play and playing the best counter to that. Additionally, it's about preparing your deck for the various decks you might play. However, there are decks that perform better against the majority of decks due to power and consistency. For example, a starter deck isn't as good as The Deck. However, saying the same about most other decks is also true. However, if the metagame is bad and everybody is countering The Deck, then that doesn't make it a bad deck, just ill suited for the metagame.

Picking a deck because of playstyle is errant. You should choose a deck because it's well suited for the meta, not because you enjoy playing that style of deck. My "playstyle" is not stall decks, but I played a turtle deck in 2011 because I thought it was the best choice given the top tier metagame. However, I was forced to play a disciples deck through the early rounds because there is no established metagame overall. This is because people like to play whatever they have fun with, not finding a deck that is good and learning to play that instead.

What happened in New York was a rogue deck won. This happens because sometimes there are decks outside the meta that are good against the meta that people don't notice. However, I guarantee you that at least 50% of people who play at nats have no chance at winning it because their deck is not optimal to begin with, regardless of the meta. And it's not "often" that off the wall decks work. Hand Discard was not an off the wall deck. It was a deck that was well known but overlooked. FBTNB was not an off the wall deck.

And I stress again, at least 50% of decks at nationals could not have won, regardless of whose hands they were in.

Not all deck archetypes are viable.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 12, 2015, 05:33:44 PM »

Two quick nit notes...

Quote from: Westy on May 12, 2015, 04:37:38 PM

A meta is the collection of decks that people play at tournaments.

The meta also consists of the strategies and concepts that are shaping this collection of decks. So, for example, "character-based draw" could be part of the meta, even though no two decks may use exactly the same cards to achieve this.

Quote

Picking a deck because of playstyle is errant.

By "errant" Westy means this could be a sub-optimal strategy if your goal is to win as much as possible.

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Author Topic: Competitive Side of Redemption (Read 5507 times)

TheHobbit13

kariusvega

Warrior_Monk

kariusvega

Chris

TheHobbit13

Chris

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk