Author Topic: Christians.  (Read 20091 times)

Offline Colin Michael

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2009, 05:44:58 PM »
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The Scriptures are part of the church history.  To present these as contradictory makes no sense.
The scriptures are a record of church history, technically.
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This seems to be cherry-picking Scripture instead of regarding it as a cohesive whole.
Since I don't view it as a cohesive whole, this would be an accurate assessment. John's works represent John's opinons, Paul's Paul's, etc.
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You honestly cannot see any modern application for the teachings of Jesus?  At all?
The coherent application can be induced from the historically contingent; that'd be the modern application.
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He did not say anything about trinitarian doctrine, FWIW.  But since all of those aspects are recorded in Scripture, and nearly all of them directly in the gospel accounts of Jesus' life, I have a hard time imagining anyone believing in the saving power of Jesus while disbelieving in almost every significant detail of His life and ministry.
You're ignoring the hermeneutical process and assuming that everything is true or everything is false.
αθαvαTOι θvηTOι θvηTOι αθαvαTOι ζwvTεs TOv εKειvwv θαvαTov Tov δε εKεivwv βιOv TεθvεwTεs -Heraclitus

The Schaef

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2009, 09:05:37 PM »
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The scriptures are a record of church history, technically.

Well, since your acceptance of Scripture is selective and arbitrary, this undercuts your referral to church history as an indicator of accepting Christ as a requirement.

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Since I don't view it as a cohesive whole, this would be an accurate assessment. John's works represent John's opinons, Paul's Paul's, etc.

And as such, do you then suppose I can say divinity is required based on my reading, and not required based on your reading?  What then?  They cannot both be correct.  This is exactly the kind of theological fragmentation that results from selective reading.

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The coherent application can be induced from the historically contingent; that'd be the modern application.

In other words, you DO see how the writings can be applied to the now, despite your previous statement to the contrary.

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You're ignoring the hermeneutical process and assuming that everything is true or everything is false.

Apparently you didn't get the message that big words neither impress nor intimidate.  For what reason do you come to the conclusion that - because I regard the Bible as complete and true - that I am ignoring the process?  Is that how you treat everyone you debate, that if they don't come to your conclusions, they just walk through life blindly, and that you're the only one who uses his brain in the process?  I would be very careful about leaving such implications in your tone.

On top of which, this blanket accusation is nothing more than a dismissal without addressing the point.  All nine of the supernatural concepts steffer listed in his question appear in significant portions of the gospel stories.  You dismissed all but one.  I do not have to adopt an all-or-nothing stance to question whether you can dismiss all of these and still accept Him as the Messiah.  I need only to ask what is left to believe in once so much of the story is carved out.  Maybe you could spend a little more time considering the nature of the question I'm asking and a little less time working 50-dollar terms into your responses.

Offline Colin Michael

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2009, 09:26:07 PM »
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I think you're assuming that I'm giving my own views on right and wrong.

I'm simply outlining what beliefs are universal among Christians, and of those belief in a Messianic Jesus is the only constant.
αθαvαTOι θvηTOι θvηTOι αθαvαTOι ζwvTεs TOv εKειvwv θαvαTov Tov δε εKεivwv βιOv TεθvεwTεs -Heraclitus

The Schaef

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2009, 09:58:15 PM »
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By universal do you mean 100% or the bulk of Christianity over a statistically insignificant minority?  So now I'm repeating for the third time how one accepts the story of Jesus while carving out nearly every significant event in His life, and the overwhelming majority of His teachings.  I don't know how you define "many", but I can't say I've met any significant number of people who dismiss any number of those concepts to a degree worth discussing.  If Heaven and Hell don't exist, then probably half of Jesus' teachings go out the window.  If there are no miracles, then most of His recorded actions go.  If there's no Holy Spirit, Jesus' words of sending a helper were a lie and the Pentecost was a sham.  What is left to believe in once all the evidence of His ministry is stripped out?

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2009, 10:02:35 PM »
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I seem to have missed a lot of discussion in this thread, but here's a few of my thoughts.

I'm glad that you weren't talking about me Matt, because at first I thought that you were.
I appreciate your defense Jon, and you are totally correct about my motivations.

I do care a lot about Colin.  I feel like we have gotten to know each other over the last couple years on this board, and I continue to believe that we would be good friends if we lived closer together.  My responses to him are not based on him being different from me, but rather because I see a lot of myself (and some of my close friends) and him.  I also have the benefit of being more than 10 years older than him.  That allows me to see where the path that he is on leads (in my close friends life), and compare it to the path that I have chosen.  Based on what I see in his future, yes I can definitely compare the two and say that one is better.

One might ask why I choose to respond to many of Colin's thoughts in the threads instead of just through PM.  I sometimes do send Colin PM's, but I also am aware that Colin is looked up to a lot by some of our younger board members, and I want to try to help them also avoid the path that he is on.

Offline Colin Michael

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2009, 10:38:15 PM »
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Not to mention the Prof and I have fun with each other on occasion.


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By universal do you mean 100% or the bulk of Christianity over a statistically insignificant minority?  So now I'm repeating for the third time how one accepts the story of Jesus while carving out nearly every significant event in His life, and the overwhelming majority of His teachings.  I don't know how you define "many", but I can't say I've met any significant number of people who dismiss any number of those concepts to a degree worth discussing.  If Heaven and Hell don't exist, then probably half of Jesus' teachings go out the window.  If there are no miracles, then most of His recorded actions go.  If there's no Holy Spirit, Jesus' words of sending a helper were a lie and the Pentecost was a sham.  What is left to believe in once all the evidence of His ministry is stripped out?
You've never met a Christian who doesn't believe in miracles?
You've never met a Christian who believes in universal salvation? (Ahem... St. Luke?)
As for the Holy Spirit, I personally believe the trinity to be a human construct to describe a phenomenon.

Actually, you could say that I believe everything to be a human paradigm to describe a phenomenon.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 10:41:33 PM by Colin Michael »
αθαvαTOι θvηTOι θvηTOι αθαvαTOι ζwvTεs TOv εKειvwv θαvαTov Tov δε εKεivwv βιOv TεθvεwTεs -Heraclitus

The Schaef

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2009, 10:40:25 PM »
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Cutthroat Caverns.  I think I've said it all.

Offline soul seeker

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2009, 11:07:25 AM »
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Cutthroat Caverns.  I think I've said it all.
Except I have never played the game, so I missed all that you've had to say then.   ;)

In all seriousness, to answer Colin's questions.
    1.  No, I've not met someone who is committed to Christ and following Him (aka Christian) not believe in miracles.  Jesus miracles was another step confirming his deity, and I believe it confirmed a few prophecies from the OT too.
    2.  I'm not sure what you mean by the term "universal salvation."  Do you mean that Christ died for everyone?  Then I agree.  Do you mean that everyone is saved and there is no Hell (because of lack of need because everyone is saved)?  Then I disagree and I don't think the book of Luke backs that.
 
Finally, we've had this discussion before on the validity of Scripture (regarding the NT) and I gave verses from Peter who confirmed Paul's writing being from God.  Paul even encourages that we must speak as if speaking from God because we are Ambassadors.
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2009, 11:21:10 AM »
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Jesus did many other miracles in the presence of His disciples that are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.

John chapter something verse something

Offline Colin Michael

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2009, 06:43:12 PM »
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Jesus did many other miracles in the presence of His disciples that are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.

John chapter something verse something
I'm not saying that I reject the validity of that, I'm just saying there are many Christians who do and they are still "Christians", whether you agree with their interpretation or not.
αθαvαTOι θvηTOι θvηTOι αθαvαTOι ζwvTεs TOv εKειvwv θαvαTov Tov δε εKεivwv βιOv TεθvεwTεs -Heraclitus

The Schaef

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2009, 08:24:04 PM »
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I'm not saying that I reject the validity of that, I'm just saying there are many Christians who do and they are still "Christians", whether you agree with their interpretation or not.

Again, I don't know who is this "many" of whom you speak.  Most of the people I know are way more conservative than I am when it comes to interpreting the Bible, and I haven't even been down south where the hardcore Baptists are.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2009, 08:54:15 PM »
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...and I haven't even been down south where the hardcore Baptists are.

That's meeeee!  ;D
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The Schaef

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2009, 09:03:57 PM »
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YMT, I think you'll appreciate this.  I grew up in a church of Free Will Baptists, and knew several others in southern Ohio, real down-home folk, real conservative.  My childhood pastor once told an anecdote about how someone told him, "You're so narrow-minded, you probably think only Free Will Baptists are going to Heaven."  "I'm even more narrow-minded than that," he quipped, "I don't even think a lot of Free Will Baptists are going to Heaven!"

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2009, 09:08:34 PM »
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YMT, I think you'll appreciate this.  I grew up in a church of Free Will Baptists, and knew several others in southern Ohio, real down-home folk, real conservative.  My childhood pastor once told an anecdote about how someone told him, "You're so narrow-minded, you probably think only Free Will Baptists are going to Heaven."  "I'm even more narrow-minded than that," he quipped, "I don't even think a lot of Free Will Baptists are going to Heaven!"

LOL. Indeed.

There certainly can't be more than 144,000 sincere Baptists anyway.  ;D
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Offline Colin Michael

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2009, 09:36:05 PM »
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I'm not saying that I reject the validity of that, I'm just saying there are many Christians who do and they are still "Christians", whether you agree with their interpretation or not.

Again, I don't know who is this "many" of whom you speak.  Most of the people I know are way more conservative than I am when it comes to interpreting the Bible, and I haven't even been down south where the hardcore Baptists are.
It's a regional/community based thing.
αθαvαTOι θvηTOι θvηTOι αθαvαTOι ζwvTεs TOv εKειvwv θαvαTov Tov δε εKεivwv βιOv TεθvεwTεs -Heraclitus

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2009, 10:17:33 PM »
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It's a regional/community based thing.

I was just as narrow-minded in New England as I am here in Florida.
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The Schaef

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2009, 10:24:27 PM »
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It's a regional/community based thing.

If anything, a "regional thing" doesn't sound like it has any business speaking for the 2 billion plus that hold the faith.

Offline ender17

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #92 on: May 08, 2009, 04:32:36 PM »
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and about Job, well, i do not believe in a litteral job so im on your side there
"Ezekiel 12The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

 13Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

 14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

 15If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

 16Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

 20Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." I have to side with the bible and say Job existed, and i have to agree with The Schaef that a regional thing doesn't really sound like it can account for the majority of christians.

Offline Colin Michael

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Re: Christians.
« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2009, 04:55:03 PM »
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Doesn't it make sense that Ezekiel would cross-reference his work with commonly known figures?

I personally don't care whether or not Job is metaphorical. It probably is, but it doesn't really effect the message either way.
αθαvαTOι θvηTOι θvηTOι αθαvαTOι ζwvTεs TOv εKειvwv θαvαTov Tov δε εKεivwv βιOv TεθvεwTεs -Heraclitus

 


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