Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: YourMathTeacher on June 15, 2015, 09:33:56 AM
-
Maybe it's just me, but that art seems a bit dark for a hero. That certainly doesn't fit the context of the verse, and it shouts out to me: "Convert or die!" :o
-
Maybe it's just me, but that art seems a bit dark for a hero. That certainly doesn't fit the context of the verse, and it shouts out to me: "Convert or die!" :o
We had some conversations on that one, but most of us did not see it that way until someone raised that question. To me, it as an image of a hero beset on all sides by darkness, which fits my concept of a spiritual warrior completely.
What we should remember about the Spiritual Warrior theme generally is that we aren't putting on actual armor or real swords, like Saul would have us do; we are arming ourselves in faith and marching into battle against foes that we can't possibly hope to defeat on our own, like David.
In that thought, when we see the armored warrior representing the spiritual battle, we remember it is not flesh he is fighting (so no "convert or die" theme), but rather against the darkness and evil in the world.
-
I understand what you are saying, but I still have to answer to parents of young students. We also have to consider parents who pick up these cards in a Christian bookstore thinking it must be fine for their kids, since it is in the toy section.
I think we may be trying too hard to appease the "gamers" who love this type of card art, but in the process we are offending potential new players (or more specifically their parents). These images also make Redemption a harder sell to churches and youth groups that are more conservative.
This is just one card, so I don't expect a change, but I would ask that you keep these things in mind for future cards, particularly heroes.
-
Those are great points, YMT.
For the most part Redemption only uses free art. Even if we wanted to use this type of imagery often (which we don't), there really isn't much of this type of art that's public domain. We're usually limited to stuff that was produced several decades ago or older, which normally doesn't look like this.
We do try to take great care to make sure the art is appropriate for our audience. I can think of multiple cards on which we've cropped an image to hide a portion of the picture that isn't appropriate.
If you look at the card image URL, it has an "M" at the end. Might we then be seeing a female variant of the Christian Soldier? I, for one, would LOVE that.
Keen eye! ;)
-
We do try to take great care to make sure the art is appropriate for our audience. I can think of multiple cards on which we've cropped an image to hide a portion of the picture that isn't appropriate.
I appreciate your efforts in this regard. ;D
Is it too late to crop this image, maybe to focus completely on the soldier and not have most of the peripheral imagery?
-
do people understand jesus was crucified? that's the most brutal death someone can take..
What exactly is your point? You want more card art depicting torture? :scratch:
-
@YMT, are you concerned about the depiction of a Crusader as a "Christian hero" (due to the negative connections to the crusades), or the weapons in the artwork?
-
We do try to take great care to make sure the art is appropriate for our audience. I can think of multiple cards on which we've cropped an image to hide a portion of the picture that isn't appropriate.
I appreciate your efforts in this regard. ;D
Is it too late to crop this image, maybe to focus completely on the soldier and not have most of the peripheral imagery?
Personally I fell on the conservative side with this artwork when the play tester discussion was had. I felt it celebrated the crusades which I as a Christian i point to as one of the darkest parts of our history. I don't think anyone points towards a militant spreading of Christianity as good thing.
That said, it is one of those cards that provides a good picture to represent spiritual warfare. I understand your concerns and share them but I can also the see the point that many Christians love and embrace LoTR trilogy which contains moving images that are much more gruesome and dark. I am not convinced that card art displaying a triumphant Christian Soldier of "spiritual warfare" is going to steer to many people away from the game.
-
We do try to take great care to make sure the art is appropriate for our audience. I can think of multiple cards on which we've cropped an image to hide a portion of the picture that isn't appropriate.
I appreciate your efforts in this regard. ;D
Is it too late to crop this image, maybe to focus completely on the soldier and not have most of the peripheral imagery?
Personally I fell on the conservative side with this artwork when the play tester discussion was had. I felt it celebrated the crusades which I as a Christian i point to as one of the darkest parts of our history. I don't think any one points towards a militant spreading Christianity as good thing.
That said, it is one of those cards that provides a good picture to represent spiritual warfare. I understand your concerns and share them but I can also the see the point that many Christians love and embrace LoTR trilogy which contains moving images that are much more gruesome and dark. I am not convinced that card art displaying a triumphant Christian Soldier of "spiritual warfare" is going to steer to many people away from the game.
I agree that it provides a good depiction of spiritual warfare. However, I do not agree that all of the crusades were bad. Some of them were unnecessary, maybe, but keep in mind that when Spain repelled the Muslim invaders, that was considered a crusade. It was not a militant spread of the Faith, just a simple defense. Otherwise, Spain would have been converted by force, and that state would have been lost to the Christian world.
-
We do try to take great care to make sure the art is appropriate for our audience. I can think of multiple cards on which we've cropped an image to hide a portion of the picture that isn't appropriate.
I appreciate your efforts in this regard. ;D
Is it too late to crop this image, maybe to focus completely on the soldier and not have most of the peripheral imagery?
Personally I fell on the conservative side with this artwork when the play tester discussion was had. I felt it celebrated the crusades which I as a Christian i point to as one of the darkest parts of our history. I don't think any one points towards a militant spreading Christianity as good thing.
That said, it is one of those cards that provides a good picture to represent spiritual warfare. I understand your concerns and share them but I can also the see the point that many Christians love and embrace LoTR trilogy which contains moving images that are much more gruesome and dark. I am not convinced that card art displaying a triumphant Christian Soldier of "spiritual warfare" is going to steer to many people away from the game.
I agree that it provides a good depiction of spiritual warfare. However, I do not agree that all of the crusades were bad. Some of them were unnecessary, maybe, but keep in mind that when Spain repelled the Muslim invaders, that was considered a crusade. It was not a militant spread of the Faith, just a simple defense. Otherwise, Spain would have been converted by force, and that state would have been lost to the Christian world.
Conversation about the crusades should be sidelined and had in the open discussion forum.
I am glad you agree it's a good depiction of spiritual warfare. (Granted our assessments are based off imagination considering I've never seen an angel fight a demon with my eyes)
-
@YMT, are you concerned about the depiction of a Crusader as a "Christian hero" (due to the negative connections to the crusades), or the weapons in the artwork?
The Crusader is a concern, not the weapons. I don't see "Spiritual Warfare," when I look at that picture. I see a Crusader standing over dead bodies.
However, I do not agree that all of the crusades were bad. Some of them were unnecessary, maybe, but keep in mind that when Spain repelled the Muslim invaders, that was considered a crusade. It was not a militant spread of the Faith, just a simple defense. Otherwise, Spain would have been converted by force, and that state would have been lost to the Christian world.
That's just one example, and dissenters can offer the Fourth Crusade as their counterexample.
-
Obviously, you can offer counterexamples, but the point is that the crusades were not all bad. That is my point, and saying that there were some bad ones does not change that there were some necessary ones, good ones. That is all I have to say, and since I am not in Open Discussion, I will leave it alone now.
-
That is all I have to say, and since I am not in Open Discussion, I will leave it alone now.
Understood and agreed. ;D
Just FYI, I cannot continue the discussion in OD since I do not have access to it.
-
That is all I have to say, and since I am not in Open Discussion, I will leave it alone now.
Understood and agreed. ;D
Just FYI, I cannot continue the discussion in OD since I do not have access to it.
Great! We are the two non-access hipsters on the boards. High five to you!
-
I see a Crusader standing over dead bodies.
I see how the warrior could be interpreted as a crusader, but where are the dead bodies?
-
I see a Crusader standing over dead bodies.
I see how the warrior could be interpreted as a crusader, but where are the dead bodies?
I was wondering that as well. I can see an arrow sticking into the ground or something, is that it?
-
I see a pair of antlers in the foreground. My guess is that this warrior wasn't vegan. :)
-
I see how the warrior could be interpreted as a crusader, but where are the dead bodies?
Unless he was attacking an armory, there must be bodies with those weapons. I am looking at the complete imagery here. ;)
I see a pair of antlers in the foreground.
Methinks you are joking by calling those antlers.
-
Here is the full artwork:
http://ageofwonders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/image1.jpg (http://ageofwonders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/image1.jpg)
While I personally don't mind, I have to agree more with YMT here. Those aren't flags hanging from the cross-spear-things in the background, they are silhouettes of people. That is rather dark for hero artwork.
-
Could be people-shaped flags.
Still looks awesome.
-
Could be people-shaped flags.
.... and antler-tipped halberds... ;)
-
[quote author=Lamborghini_diablo link=topic=36037.msg543974#msg543974
While I personally don't mind, I have to agree more with YMT here. Those aren't flags hanging from the cross-spear-things in the background, they are silhouettes of people. That is rather dark for hero artwork.[/quote]
I'm seeing tattered flags, not people on poles. This is particularly evident in that the 'shapes' there are the same (there are three basic shapes for the flags in that image). I'm just not seeing it.
-
I don't have an opinion either way, but there are definitely bodies impaled on crosses in the background.
EDIT: I circled what I'm talking about (http://oi58.tinypic.com/2l972qd.jpg)
-
Especially the ones on the far left and right. Not sure how anyone gets 'flag' from that.
-
I'm seeing tattered flags, not people on poles. This is particularly evident in that the 'shapes' there are the same (there are three basic shapes for the flags in that image). I'm just not seeing it.
The first prominent pole to the left of the crusader is a body that is curled over, as if impaled in the midsection. You can see the person's hair and feet very clearly. There are no visible hands because the person's hands would have been tied behind their back, which is even worse, since it implies they were alive when they were impaled.
-
I had not seen that in the artwork before, but now that it's been pointed out those are clearly impaled bodies on the "flag poles".
-
The first prominent pole to the left of the crusader is a body that is curled over, as if impaled in the midsection. You can see the person's hair and feet very clearly. There are no visible hands because the person's hands would have been tied behind their back, which is even worse, since it implies they were alive when they were impaled.
I was envisioning those ones as the person being impaled through the back, which looked really painful. But your analysis seems far more likely and plausible, and I see it that way now.
-
Either way, it's pretty brutal, and not really appropriate for this game.
-
Perhaps it was just the artists being lazy, but the fact that the 2 different shapes are used identically in multiple different places seems to indicate to me that they're not actually people. No matter how hard you try, it would be nigh impossible to get 2 people impaled on spears in mirror images where even the hair and dangling feet (and awkwardly curved/broken forearm in the case of the one that appears 3 times) are identical.
I do admit it's a disturbing shape to use as basis for a flag, if that's what they are, though.
-
Either way, it's pretty brutal, and not really appropriate for this game.
Neither is this. :(
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fredemption%2Fimages%2F1%2F15%2FHigh_Priest%2527s_Maid_-_Rock_of_Ages.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20100523021952&hash=01279cc4b42d2584eddd23455ef342e30acd1b5e)
Seriously though, I've requested that we at least crop in on the warrior.
-
Perhaps it was just the artists being lazy, but the fact that the 2 different shapes are used identically in multiple different places seems to indicate to me that they're not actually people. No matter how hard you try, it would be nigh impossible to get 2 people impaled on spears in mirror images where even the hair and dangling feet are identical.
I do admit it's a disturbing shape to use as basis for a flag, if that's what they are, though.
There is a lot of copy and paste within this artwork, including the weapons along the bottom of the image. Those are definitely people (you can see pretty clearly defined limbs).
*EDIT*
Gabe, I'm not even sure if that would cut it, you can see a hand reaching up from another one of the flag poles from behind his shoulder. I would suggest finding something different altogether.
-
seriously though probably just don't show spoilers so you can do what you want without being persecuted****** persecuted church!! is that ironic? haha
-
Perhaps it was just the artists being lazy, ...
This is definitely true since most of the peripheral images are identical (or flipped). The artist was focusing his attention on the Crusader.
----------------
To Moderators, can we perhaps split this whole conversation off so as not to ruin browarod's Spoiler Thread?
-
what about the card beheaded? and all of the cards depicting severed heads?? i mean come on seriously people? the bible in itself is brutally graphic..
-
what about the card beheaded? and all of the cards depicting severed heads?? i mean come on seriously people? the bible in itself is brutally graphic..
The other offending cards were evil, though. This is a hero we are talking about.
-
what about the card beheaded? and all of the cards depicting severed heads?? i mean come on seriously people? the bible in itself is brutally graphic..
Those are depicting moments that are actually described in the bible, so that artwork makes sense in context.
A "Christian Warrior" wouldn't be marching with bodies impaled on spikes.
The other offending cards were evil, though. This is a hero we are talking about.
To be fair, there are some good enhancements depicting david holding Goliath's head.
-
what about the strong angel? he is bludgeoning a guy and there is blood coming out? honestly if you have to answer to someone about what a card shows they probably don't have the incentive to play the game to begin with. i mean, i just went and saw jurassic world and there were 5 year olds in there watching people be torn limb from limb.. doesn't make it right but seriously we have pictures of bruce jenner being turned into a woman in the grocery store. parents have a lot more to answer for in terms of christian accountability than a picture on a redemption card
-
To be fair, there are some good enhancements depicting david holding Goliath's head.
Oh yes, I forgot about that one. And I'm not even going to talk about Bathsheba.... :o ;)
honestly if you have to answer to someone about what a card shows they probably don't have the incentive to play the game to begin with. i mean, i just went and saw jurassic world and there were 5 year olds in there watching people be torn limb from limb.. doesn't make it right but seriously we have pictures of bruce jenner being turned into a woman in the grocery store. parents have a lot more to answer for in terms of christian accountability than a picture on a redemption card
LOL. I won't respond to this since I have no "incentive." ;D
-
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fredemption%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fdc%2FThe_Strong_Angel_-_Kings.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20100523011731&hash=b2b0a3e550af2169c5b5459c2fd1db297d6f637b)
That isn't blood from the attack, that's his shield. See Michael for further context:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fredemption%2Fimages%2F3%2F32%2FMichael_-_Kings.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20100522225816&hash=8ae9a091f4cd3477d8c5dbfaf56937e502f12331)
-
seriously we have pictures of bruce jenner being turned into a woman in the grocery store.
Let's try to keep this thread from being moved to OD :)
Perhaps it was just the artists being lazy
Correct, flipping background elements to save time is common with digital art.
-
Neither is this. :(
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fredemption%2Fimages%2F1%2F15%2FHigh_Priest%2527s_Maid_-_Rock_of_Ages.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20100523021952&hash=01279cc4b42d2584eddd23455ef342e30acd1b5e)
For what its worth that is the only card in the game I refuse to play and its because of the art.
-
For what its worth that is the only card in the game I refuse to play and its because of the art.
I had to remove Bathsheba and Whore of Babylon from boxes that my students had access to, because some 6th grade boys were hugging and kissing the cards. :o
-
It's just jumbo shrimp on the barby back there. But seriously its not a body its a tattered flag. You don't impale a body on poles in two ways
-
@Gabe, I edited out the bodies so that no zooming in is required.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/30kuahc.jpg (http://oi57.tinypic.com/30kuahc.jpg)
-
It's just jumbo shrimp on the barby back there. But seriously its not a body its a tattered flag. You don't impale a body on poles in two ways
I think it's dangerous territory to assume you know the mindset of a person who would impale a body at all... unless...hmm...Perhaps I'll just keep my mouth shut, since you know where I live... :-X
In any case, while they may look like shrimp or flags or what-have-you to some, it's pretty obvious they look like bodies to others. Regardless of whether the dress is black and blue or white and good, people will see what they see, and if a conservative Christian parent sees impaled bodies on a card representing soldier for Christ, there may be issues.
-
Except its blatantly obvious imo they're not. If its not obvious either way then the artwork isn't comparable to Bathsheba, whore if Babylon, Maid or whatever. Its of the coolest artwork In the game let's not ruin it by making a muddy background ;)
-
You don't impale a body on poles in two ways
Historical artwork shows that this is not true. I'm sure that when Vlad the Impaler impaled over 40,000 Turks that there were more than two ways this was accomplished.
Except its blatantly obvious they're not.
:scratch: ... in spite of so many of us that have said otherwise?
-
I think he more meant that on two different poles, not that you wouldn't position them differently.
And again, I really don't see bodies, I see banners and flags, particularly on poles that narrow. But I'm not going to advocate it if so many would see bodies on it every time they look at the card.
-
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spring.org.uk%2Fimages%2FDuck-Rabbit_illusion.jpg&hash=3a895d82d6b1365f2ec049285df14a2c9a8f7dcc)
Duck or rabbit? :P
-
I spun the image backwards and it said "Paul is dead." :o
-
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spring.org.uk%2Fimages%2FDuck-Rabbit_illusion.jpg&hash=3a895d82d6b1365f2ec049285df14a2c9a8f7dcc)
Duck or rabbit? :P
if it's both, does that make it a "Dubbit" or "Rack"? :laugh:
-
I spun the image backwards and it said "Paul is dead." :o
hahahahaha!! :)
-
I spun the image backwards and it said "Paul is dead." :o
I'm sorry to propagate a slight thread derailment, but seriously, this made me laugh out loud. Literally. Bravo, YMT, bravo.
-
@Gabe, I edited out the bodies so that no zooming in is required.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/30kuahc.jpg (http://oi57.tinypic.com/30kuahc.jpg)
I'm not quite convinced the objects on the poles are bodies, but I agree it's ambiguous enough that I would support using this modified version. :)
-
Is there a way to just show the Warrior and provide a clay background. Either that or ask YMCA, Gabe or Rob for an alternative picture as I believe these cards aren't the finished product.
-
Is there a way to just show the Warrior and provide a clay background. Either that or ask YMCA, Gabe or Rob for an alternative picture as I believe these cards aren't the finished product.
@Gabe, I edited out the bodies so that no zooming in is required.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/30kuahc.jpg (http://oi57.tinypic.com/30kuahc.jpg)
Daniel pretty much already did that.
-
And again, I really don't see bodies, I see banners and flags, particularly on poles that narrow. But I'm not going to advocate it if so many would see bodies on it every time they look at the card.
Here's the largest one, notice the two feet at the bottom right. The extra "raggedy edges" are the person's clothing.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFMME2sh.jpg&hash=b6209da9a0196299e99af24a86175cd4c19c62bd)(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVkDBgRz.jpg&hash=92053997f28a29f4e59b8a30b92ad66ef91b053c)
And further to the side, not visible within the card itself. You can see hands, feet, and calf details pretty clearly.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqD8UWo1.jpg&hash=6e1d7b4dc4ae9813e785f045d53b612bd56d8d3c)(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fc7R4x1v.jpg&hash=d667da5388c2a698ee86025eb6d2e397679a9513)
Now do you see them?
-
Ok, I see it but its not obvious from the picture on the card so I don't we a huge did. Worse case scenario the guys a crusader lol its history we'll live. Its better than the picture without the background.
-
Ok, I see it but its not obvious from the picture on the card so I don't we a huge did. Worse case scenario the guys a crusader lol its history we'll live. Its better than the picture without the background.
I don't get the resistance against changing the artwork. Just find something that's equally cool looking, but without the macabre display of dead bodies on spears in the background.
-
I just saw this thread this morning. I am not resistant to changing the art. In fact, the original card list proposed reprinting the illustration by Ben Go that we already own. I thought the new piece was interesting. Then again, I did not catch the bodies until they were identified for me here. Otherwise, I would not have used the image at all or would have zoomed in on it much more. Even so, if people have good faith concerns about it as has been demonstrated here, I will change this one.
Rob
-
Now do you see them?
Since this was directed right to me, I'll say that no, I do not see those as bodies. I said before I can see where people would see that, but I only see flags and banners. Our brains are designed to pick up on patterns we think may be there, but I really don't see those as bodies. However, I also already pointed out that if others do see it then I'm not going to advocate keeping the same image, so I really don't see why people see the need to have to make others see what they see. It's that stupid dress all over again ;)
TL;DR I don't see what you see, but I don't want to print something that others see such an issue with.
-
Then again, I did not catch the bodies until they were identified for me here.
They are difficult to see in the smaller form on the card. The original artwork that Lambo showed makes it more obvious. I was more attuned to the surroundings because that's just the way I am, and I was wary of any modern pictures involving a Crusader. As a teacher in a Christian school, I tend to scrutinize things more than the average person, since my job demands it. ;)
Even so, if people have good faith concerns about it as has been demonstrated here, I will change this one.
Thank you for your continued support of the community and our opinions. ;D
However, I also already pointed out that if others do see it then I'm not going to advocate keeping the same image, ...
Thank you, as well as the other Moderators, for your willingness to accept our concerns and do something about it, even though you may not have had the same concerns. I like that we can all work together to discuss something like this and make changes (if necessary). :)
Besides, it gave me a chance to make the Professor and kariusvega laugh, so it was well worth it. ;)
-
Or... Since he is a spiritual warrior, we could say that those are DEMONS impaled on those spears! Yeah! That works...
-
Rob has reverted Christian Soldier back to the original piece of art. The preview article on LoR now reflects how the card will look when printed.
-
Rob has reverted Christian Soldier back to the original piece of art. The preview article on LoR now reflects how the card will look when printed.
Hopefully without the fuzziness. ;)
I assume that was just an issue with copying the image and not with the card itself.
EDIT: Looks like that's just an image sizing issue, so shouldn't be a problem at all. Disregard!
-
I assume that was just an issue with copying the image and not with the card itself.
EDIT: Looks like that's just an image sizing issue, so shouldn't be a problem at all. Disregard!
Thanks for catching that. Totally my bad. When I uploaded the new image I used the smaller template I use for the "pop-up" card images instead of the larger template that's for featured cards. It's fixed now.