Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Chris on March 04, 2013, 03:18:54 PM
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I think that the new set, once it hits the printer, should be released here on the forums (and on RTS) so that people can start building decks. This is for a couple reasons, first and foremost being it will really rejuvenate the forums and give people something new to talk about. With the forums probably slower right now than they've been in years, having a chance to start deck building will really bring a lot of discussion back. Additionally, it will make it more justifiable to allow the cards to be used at Nats (if not earlier), because non-Elders will have had a lot of time to play with them, leveling the playing field significantly.
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I think they should post the list as is, then let the community discuss and test the cards before printing them. After the travesties that were AUtO, Samuel, Isaiah, Matthew, Thaddeus, Foreign Sword, etc., I think having some additional oversight would be a good thing.
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I think they should post the list as is, then let the community discuss and test the cards before printing them. After the travesties that were AUtO, Samuel, Isaiah, Matthew, Thaddeus, Foreign Sword, etc., I think having some additional oversight would be a good thing.
Well, its a starter deck...
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yeah guys, if only Nolan had released the script of the new batman movie a few months before it came out....
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I agree with CJSports. These are starter decks, so there can't be any complicated or convoluted SAs.
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I agree with CJSports. These are starter decks, so there can't be any complicated or convoluted SAs.
If there are then we have a problem within the playtesters...The entire point of starter decks is to NOT be convoluted or complicated. ::)
To lp, did you not like the Batman series. I don't want to start a debate but I personally loved them.
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You can't say that starter decks won't change the game at all. G/H were pretty solid decks, and I imagine I/J will be even better will all the power creep. They may not be complicated, but they will be good. An artifact that says "Negate Search and Draw abilities." would be really simple, but incredibly good.
I'm still on the "Don't make them legal for nats" bandwagon. Might as well just skip the 2012 release and have a 2013 release. I doubt they'll release this set now and another set at nats. No way do they have time or money for all of that. Which means you really don't need an early release of the list.
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I'd want them legal before Nats to actually have more opportunities to test them out at higher level tournaments.
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I agree with CJSports. These are starter decks, so there can't be any complicated or convoluted SAs.
If there are then we have a problem within the playtesters...The entire point of starter decks is to NOT be convoluted or complicated. ::)
Several play testers have stated that they have found it easier to teach new players with the new starter decks than G/H. I would trust they know what they are doing. The more convoluted cards will show up in the extended tin and as promos.
Kirk
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Man, wish I was a new player so I could be taught with the new set. Promo's included too? Have they been tested fairly well?
Of course, What Kirk did at T2Only prolly wont be topped. :)
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The more convoluted cards will show up in the extended tin and as promos.
That's where my uncertainty lies. I'm sure they can make decent non-game breaking starter decks, but I'm concerned about the possibility of the contents of the extended tins.
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Of course, What Kirk did at T2Only prolly wont be topped. :)
Nor is it likely to be replicated ever...too many of us Elders got caught with our pants down (and no, Largent was not there either, so we WERE all wearing pants at some point). ;)
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Several play testers have stated that they have found it easier to teach new players with the new starter decks than G/H. I would trust they know what they are doing.
They are far more balanced and simple when compared to G/H decks to say the least. G/H decks were borderline broken depending on when the G deck got out Moses, Red Dragon, Sapphira and when the H deck got out James/John.
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I think that the new set, once it hits the printer, should be released here on the forums (and on RTS) so that people can start building decks.
You've mentioned the idea of releasing the new cards on RTS a couple times. I've gone to bat for you and asked Rob if he would consider it. There is nothing official yet, but he is open to the idea. If we're allowed to do that it could mean the real cards will be legal sooner after their official release as a result. Of course I will let you know as soon as I can when anything official is decided.
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I think that the new set, once it hits the printer, should be released here on the forums (and on RTS) so that people can start building decks.
You've mentioned the idea of releasing the new cards on RTS a couple times. I've gone to bat for you and asked Rob if he would consider it. There is nothing official yet, but he is open to the idea. If we're allowed to do that it could mean the real cards will be legal sooner after their official release as a result. Of course I will let you know as soon as I can when anything official is decided.
Thank you wo much; pretty much everything you said was the logic behind the suggestion, so I appreciate it. :)
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Question to the new players (sorry I should start an entire new post on this subject probably but I figure we are in the territory)
Kirk spoke of the playtesters saying that the new decks are easier to teach people T1. I would eventually like to join the T2 realm ;D eventually. So my question is could you combine two of one of the decks and still (in theory) have a type 2 starter deck. You might want to playtest that possibility. Thanks!
KingLeo 8)
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My guess is that you couldn't simply combine the two decks, because there will be repeating dominant cards (at the very least Son of God). Perhaps subbing in a few of the tin cards also being released could make something valid though.
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So my question is could you combine two of one of the decks and still (in theory) have a type 2 starter deck
Im not sure why hi spost got a -1 response either. Im sure he's asking if you put together 2 of I or 2 of J not putting both together...
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So my question is could you combine two of one of the decks and still (in theory) have a type 2 starter deck
Im not sure why hi spost got a -1 response either. Im sure he's asking if you put together 2 of I or 2 of J not putting both together...
Yes, sorry I didn't make my self clear I had forgotten the names :doh: . But, yes this is what I mean: Could you put two J's together and two I's together and it would be a (at least) descent tool to teach and start type two. If any of the playtesters would test this I would be in their debt but I was just wondering.
Thanks,
KingLeo 8)
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That's a good idea for teaching T2. It's too late for us to do any additional testing. The starter decks are done now. When they're released you could combine two of the same deck to make a basic T2 deck. Depending on which deck you use, you'll need to add 8-9 cards.
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Since the starter decks are done, can we see em? :) pleeeaaaassseee!!!!!
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Since the starter decks are done, can we see em? :) pleeeaaaassseee!!!!!
There's only one person who gets to make that decision. ;)
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Since the starter decks are done, can we see em? :) pleeeaaaassseee!!!!!
There's only one person who gets to make that decision. ;)
Can we at least get articles?
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Since the starter decks are done, can we see em? :) pleeeaaaassseee!!!!!
There's only one person who gets to make that decision. ;)
Can we at least get articles?
There's only one person who gets to make that decision. ;)
There seems to be a lot of overestimation of what the playtesters are able to do as far as releasing information. We help to design and test the cards, and we are able to get away with subtle hints here and there, but since Rob is the guy who is investing his money to create the cards, he is the guy who decides when any information regarding them is made public. When we get the go-ahead to release such information, you will know about it. :)
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Why is rob so hesitant to release information? Barely 2 years with almost no information or hype seems like it would hurt the game pretty bad.
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Why is rob so hesitant to release information? Barely 2 years with almost no information or hype seems like it would hurt the game pretty bad.
I don't think it is fair to jump to the conclusion that Rob is hesitant to release information.
Kirk
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Why is rob so hesitant to release information? Barely 2 years with almost no information or hype seems like it would hurt the game pretty bad.
I don't think it is fair to jump to the conclusion that Rob is hesitant to release information.
Kirk
I think it's pretty fair; I mean... The only information we've recieved has been from playtesters like Gabe. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way bashing rob; on the contrary I'm suggesting that going so long with barely any info is hurtful to the game.
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Why is rob so hesitant to release information? Barely 2 years with almost no information or hype seems like it would hurt the game pretty bad.
I don't think it is fair to jump to the conclusion that Rob is hesitant to release information.
Kirk
I think it's pretty fair; I mean... The only information we've recieved has been from playtesters like Gabe. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way bashing rob; on the contrary I'm suggesting that going so long with barely any info is hurtful to the game.
I still don't think that is fair. I have been on the boards for almost a decade now and I don't recall a year in which Rob himself shared information concerning new sets on the boards. All of the "leaked" information has come from playtesters or others in the know.
Also the information "leak" so far for the I/J starters is pretty consistent with the pattern from previous sets.
- Playtesters post hints in subtle and not-so-subtle posts for any period of months leading up to the completion of a new set.
- After set is sent to printers Bryon writes several articles periodically to build up hype for the release by highlighting 1 new card each time and describing the interaction of other new cards with existing cards.
However, the card list for new sets is usually only released the week prior to nationals or at nationals. This year because the set was obviously not released at nationals the set list will be released at a different time.
I disagree that Rob not pushing out the card list by this point hurts the game. The "hurt" caused to the game is the delay in the release of new cards (and we all know that was purely due to economic reasons) and whether Rob puts the card list on the internet the day the set finalized or not doesn't "hurt" the game more. I furthermore believe it was wise for Rob not to release the card list until the set was finalized - which it now is. It wouldn't make sense to get players' hopes up concerning a potential new card or ability that receives a last minute change. So now we can look forward to when Rob will release the information. :)
Kirk
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To further prove one of Kirks points, I just got an email from Rob that he needed to make changes to a few cards. That confirms that nothing is for certain until they're sent to the printer. At this moment there are still about a dozen cards left to have their graphic files completed.
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whether Rob puts the card list on the internet the day the set finalized or not doesn't "hurt" the game more.
I'm not so sure about this. As Gabe pointed out in his original post on this topic, the sooner the details on the cards are released, the sooner they become legal. I'm not sure how long it takes from the point the cards go to print to when they are in players' hands, but when it was first announced that the cards would be delayed, I heard "four months" being thrown around a lot. Based on what multiple Elders have said, I think it's safe to assume we'll be getting the set before Nats (which is almost exactly four months away) this year, but the longer it takes for people to start deck building with the new cards, the less likely it is that the cards will be legal at Nats (or sooner). This is obvious conjecture, but I imagine that there are some players (especially those who have to travel far to get to Long Island) who view the prospect of playing in a meta with no new cards to be a dealbreaker. At least for me, personally, a combination of a far distance to travel and no new cards (that are legal) would have likely have kept me from going this year. I'm not saying that it definitely will, but less people at Nats means less overall hype for the game, which certainly doesn't help. From my angle, I cannot see a logical reason for why the card list shouldn't be released after they've been sent.
That's not to say that I disagree with you though, though I've long held that the playtest group should be larger to help ensure that the cards are the best possible quality, since I believe that more eyes is always a good thing. I understand why Rob prefers to keep the group small, and play his cards close to the chest (so to speak). I disagree with it, but on many levels it does make sense.
Let me reiterate how grateful I am to Gabe for bringing the suggestion to Rob. Even if he chooses not to implement the idea, I am content. :)
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I +1ed that
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I have expressed my concern in the past from a trader's perspective. The playtesters know which cards are going to be the most desirable, both for purchase and trade. Sometimes the cards that end up being the most sought after are not the ones that stand out intially in the card list. If the playtesters start trading/buying these cards as soon as they come out, this will drive up the prices on TLG for the rest of the population, as well as reduce inventory and trade availability. Ken usually starts all cards off at the same level, then adjusts according to demand. The playtesters get a head start, and they get lower prices (typically). Can you imagine buying Grapes and Mayhem for $5 or less when they first came out? "Sure, I'll take 10 of each, Ken." ;)
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I have expressed my concern in the past from a trader's perspective. The playtesters know which cards are going to be the most desirable, both for purchase and trade. Sometimes the cards that end up being the most sought after are not the ones that stand out intially in the card list. If the playtesters start trading/buying these cards as soon as they come out, this will drive up the prices on TLG for the rest of the population, as well as reduce inventory and trade availability. Ken usually starts all cards off at the same level, then adjusts according to demand. The playtesters get a head start, and they get lower prices (typically). Can you imagine buying Grapes and Mayhem for $5 or less when they first came out? "Sure, I'll take 10 of each, Ken." ;)
While there is a possibility of us "cornering the market", I can verify that I have never done that, and I don't imagine many if any of the other playtesters have done that either. And as far as getting a head start, I know most of the playtesters who compete in large tournaments don't think too much about future strategies when they are preparing for the current State, Regional and National tournies. When the sets have been released at Nationals, there is usually 1 or 2 months until the next tournaments most of us participate in, so I don't think it has ever been too significant of an advantage. This year does have the potential to be different, but it is important to note that the majority of the cards released are Starter Deck cards, which means there are much fewer cards that will have a significant impact on the meta. While certainly many of the I/J cards will be deckable, they are simple enough that it shouldn't take most players a lot of time to integrate them into their current strategies.
All that said, I am certainly glad that Rob is open to an earlier online release, and I look forward to it if/when it happens.
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I am starting all cards off at the same level ($2 for starter deck cards and $3 for tin cards), and I am accepting pre-orders whenever we know what the cards are. However, I am guaranteeing that I will not increase the price on any of the cards until at least 1 month after they are released. After the release, I may (and probably will) reduce the price of many of the cards during that month. My hope is that I can keep the cards at those prices or lower for longer, but we will have to see what demand brings about over that time. Hopefully with them being used at bigger tournaments sooner after their release, people will get to be on more even footing in figuring out which ones are "better"!
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Hopefully with them being used at bigger tournaments sooner after their release, people will get to be on more even footing in figuring out which ones are "better"!
Regular players will get one month, while the playtesters have had many months. I'm not sure I see the "even footing."
While there is a possibility of us "cornering the market", I can verify that I have never done that, and I don't imagine many if any of the other playtesters have done that either.
It's not you or the "many" that I am concerned about, although T2 players will require more copies of each of the power cards. It is the other "few" that concern me the most.
This year does have the potential to be different, but it is important to note that the majority of the cards released are Starter Deck cards, which means there are much fewer cards that will have a significant impact on the meta.
The tin cards are my primary concern, since they have more of a chance of significantly affecting everyone's strategies. Was the pre-Nats release intended only for the starter decks, or for the tin as well?
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The starter decks and tins will be released at the same time, whenever that is. :)
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While there is a possibility of us "cornering the market", I can verify that I have never done that, and I don't imagine many if any of the other playtesters have done that either.
It's not you or the "many" that I am concerned about, although T2 players will require more copies of each of the power cards. It is the other "few" that concern me the most.
I am curious if you have any evidence of anyone doing anything like that? I assume your intent is not to accuse, but I just want to make sure that people don't start thinking we are US Congress or anything. :o
This year does have the potential to be different, but it is important to note that the majority of the cards released are Starter Deck cards, which means there are much fewer cards that will have a significant impact on the meta.
The tin cards are my primary concern, since they have more of a chance of significantly affecting everyone's strategies. Was the pre-Nats release intended only for the starter decks, or for the tin as well?
I am fairly sure it is for the tin cards as well, but since it is only 10 cards, the month or so after the release before they are tournament legal (in addition to any extra time that we get due to an early online release) should be plenty of time for competitive players to "catch up". And not only that, now that playtesting is more or less complete, most of the playtesters that I know of are focused on developing their current decks for upcoming states and regionals, and are not thinking about future strategies yet.
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YMT, can cite a specific example of this actually happening?
I appreciate that you hold the play testers ability in such high regard. I wish you would do the same for our integrity. But you give our ability far more credit than we deserve if you believe we have figured out the future meta and know every card that will be sought after. Even if we thought we had it all figured out we're often wrong.
I believe the general public also over estimates how many people actually play test. Very few people play more than a handful of games. Some of the elders don't play test at all. They look at a list on paper and draw their conclusions from there. That type of assessment can be inaccurate. Cards that appear seemingly harmless on paper can turn out to be a real powerhouse and cards that look great can turn out disappointing.
Although the people that have access to the final list do have a few months more than the rest of the community, I do not know of one person who spends time on that card list after it's complete. We've tested so many variations of most of the cards that by the time they are released we've forgotten exactly which version we ended up using. At this point the elders are asking "what can we start working on next?" which is still undecided. Not looking back at the list to try to gain an edge.
Are there cards in the new stuff I want to get. Absolutely! But the fact is that all the elders are long time players, tournament hosts and playgroup leaders. We already have more cards than they know what to do with. We'd rather trade from our large collections for new stuff than pay the premium prices for singles.
While I understand that you believe this to be a valid concern, the bigger picture reveals that it's unwarranted.
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To avoid any unnecessary accusations, I will use an older example that I have used in past discussions related to this. The Warriors Harvest Time was one of the highest valued cards before the release of the promo version. Collectors would pay or trade top dollar to get one. I was one person who was trying to acquire one, but I was holding out for less than the premium. In short, I did not want to pay $40 for one, but I would have paid $20 for one.
Just before the promo version was released, during the playtesting phase, Warriors Harvest Times suddenly starting showing up in trade threads and on eBay. Since I had been looking for one, I remember the sudden influx quite well. I was almost tempted to buy one of the eBay Buy it Now ones for $25, but I decided to wait for some of the other auction-style ones to end. But as I waited, more showed up on eBay and on the boards. This, of course, made me suspicious since I am not a very trusting person (as you can probably tell - so no offense to the playtesters individually). I decided to hold off, and sure enough the Harvest Time promo was announced sometime later.
Basically, people with inside information were trying to unload their Harvest Times before the value dropped, but that made people like me vulnerable since I did not know the promo version was coming. That kind of action will get you arrested on Wall Street, which is why I find it very disconcerting for a Christian card game.
Now I realize that the majority of the playtesters would not do this, so I do appreciate the integrity of the majority, but that does not guarantee that these kind of practices are not happening, especially in places where they cannot be regulated.
While I understand that you believe this to be a valid concern, the bigger picture reveals that it's unwarranted.
I'm glad to hear that! ;)
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To avoid any unnecessary accusations, I will use an older example that I have used in past discussions related to this. The Warriors Harvest Time was one of the highest valued cards before the release of the promo version. Collectors would pay or trade top dollar to get one. I was one person who was trying to acquire one, but I was holding out for less than the premium. In short, I did not want to pay $40 for one, but I would have paid $20 for one.
Just before the promo version was released, during the playtesting phase, Warriors Harvest Times suddenly starting showing up in trade threads and on eBay. Since I had been looking for one, I remember the sudden influx quite well. I was almost tempted to buy one of the eBay Buy it Now ones for $25, but I decided to wait for some of the other auction-style ones to end. But as I waited, more showed up on eBay and on the boards. This, of course, made me suspicious since I am not a very trusting person (as you can probably tell - so no offense to the playtesters individually). I decided to hold off, and sure enough the Harvest Time promo was announced sometime later.
Basically, people with inside information were trying to unload their Harvest Times before the value dropped, but that made people like me vulnerable since I did not know the promo version was coming. That kind of action will get you arrested on Wall Street, which is why I find it very disconcerting for a Christian card game.
Now I realize that the majority of the playtesters would not do this, so I do appreciate the integrity of the majority, but that does not guarantee that these kind of practices are not happening, especially in places where they cannot be regulated.
While I understand that you believe this to be a valid concern, the bigger picture reveals that it's unwarranted.
I'm glad to hear that! ;)
That is an interesting story, and I think I recall you bringing that up before. I agree that that should be avoided, and it is something that we should certainly watch out for. But there are a few cards coming out that would have the potential for a similar situation, but I haven't seen any significant movement on those fronts in the market.
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That is an interesting story, and I think I recall you bringing that up before.
And I only bring it up because of the nature of this thread, bringing a trader/buyer perspective to why the list should be released sooner rather than later. I realize that my post came across as accusational, but I was merely trying to throw in my two cents.
As a less manipulative example, if one of the serious collectors was getting antsy and posted that he would trade a Michael and King of Tyrus for a Harvest Time, a playtester who had one could have been tempted to make the trade knowing that the promo version was coming out, whereas they might still have wanted to keep their Harvest Time if they had not known about the promo version, since the Warriors one was so hard to come by back then. There would have been no malicious intent, but the other guy was still getting shorted in the deal by not being in the know.
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I know what card I'd buy in bulk and I'm not a play tester.
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I know what card I'd buy in bulk and I'm not a play tester.
Do tell..... :o
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I know that I'll be stocking up on the new, rumored Son of God that can negate Lost Souls... and unloading all my old ones. Anyone want to buy a Son of God?
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I wasn't an elder back when the Harvest Time promo came out, but if anyone ever sees me do anything that seems to be taking advantage of my status as an elder to make money on trades or anything else, then please feel free to let me know. I completely support Christian accountability, and if you think I did something wrong we need to talk about it. Either I did NOT really do anything wrong, and talking can easily clear up the miscommunication, or I DID really do something wrong, and I need to make restitution. So send me a PM about it. And if I don't respond as you feel the situation requires, then feel free to post a thread and call me out. I'm all for transparency.
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I know that I'll be stocking up on the new, rumored Son of God that can negate Lost Souls... and unloading all my old ones. Anyone want to buy a Son of God?
I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem. ;) ;D
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I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem. ;) ;D
The blue border is my favorite SoG to deck too. But wouldn't you want the new one to have a different border color so you can tell when your opponent uses the "negate" SoG vs the old one? Or maybe we should just give it different art. I know, make all dominants borderless going forward. Then there would be no mistake which one was being used.
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I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem. ;) ;D
The blue border is my favorite SoG to deck too. But wouldn't you want the new one to have a different border color so you can tell when your opponent uses the "negate" SoG vs the old one? Or maybe we should just give it different art. I know, make all dominants borderless going forward. Then there would be no mistake which one was being used.
Better yet, make them all completely blank, save for their name in big bold letters. Maybe we could even get a blank dominant that's a wildcard, copies any dominant in the game (but prohibits you from playing that dom later in the game, and can't copy it if you have already played it).
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All this fun joking aside has the new set made it to the printer yet?
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I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem. ;) ;D
The blue border is my favorite SoG to deck too. But wouldn't you want the new one to have a different border color so you can tell when your opponent uses the "negate" SoG vs the old one? Or maybe we should just give it different art. I know, make all dominants borderless going forward. Then there would be no mistake which one was being used.
(Do i detect a possible hint here?)
Full art would be sweet for dominants!
A new full art SoG promo would be awesome!!
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(Do i detect a possible hint here?)
Gabe does like to toss out hints every once in a while, but this time he might have just been joking around :)
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It's true. I like to mix spoilers with a little chicanery to throw people off the trail. ::)
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All this fun joking aside has the new set made it to the printer yet?
Reasking