Author Topic: Banlist Brainstorming (Read 12937 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #50 on:** November 23, 2012, 01:44:21 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on November 23, 2012, 01:25:25 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on November 23, 2012, 01:14:01 PM
Banning Son of God does not make starter decks unplayable. They are still quite capable of functioning as starter decks.
Aren't Starter Decks 50 cards?

Well, there's that whole thing...

I honestly did not take that into consideration. Is the latest starter 50 each?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #51 on:** November 23, 2012, 02:12:06 PM »

So release a new starter deck fixing the problem.

and with the redesign.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #52 on:** November 23, 2012, 03:41:29 PM »

This thread is tl;dr, but I support banning Lewd Men.

Bobbert · « **Reply #53 on:** November 23, 2012, 04:15:36 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 23, 2012, 03:41:29 PM

This thread is tl;dr, but I support banning Lewd Men.

From tournament play, or the game in general?

I personally do not support a ban list - siding with "at what point does it stop" for the argument line - but neither do I disagree with NJ being banned. However, that is probably the only one worth it, and I would lobby that if we ban NJ (which, again, I would be fine with) we should also get rid of last season's ruling that you cannot rescue a LS from your own LoB.

Just my

Sadness · « **Reply #54 on:** November 23, 2012, 05:59:48 PM »

Read all the posts and I agree/disagree on some. Mayhem is in some ways no different the A New Beginning. The only real difference is one is a dom and the other a enhancement. And realize this,doms are meant to be game changers,but they DON'T guarantee victory. Every card yall listed has pros and cons,but not one listed guarantees a immediate win. Sure SoG will get you a LS,but Falling Away can negate that victory. Mayhem is like getting a crummy hand in poker,instant redraw,new hand. New Jerusalem needs SoG to be affective,but the odds are not in your favor. Believe me,I know-drawn NJ in opening hand and lost because SoG was at bottom of deck.

I'm not in favor of banning any cards,but if Cactus decides on it,I hope they'll let us cast a vote on what card(s) to ban. Your thoughts?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #55 on:** November 23, 2012, 06:02:18 PM »

Quote from: Sadness on November 23, 2012, 05:59:48 PM

Read all the posts and I agree/disagree on some. Mayhem is in some ways no different the A New Beginning. The only real difference is one is a dom and the other a enhancement.

1. That makes all the difference. Being able to play Mayhem on your opponent's turn gives you a significant advantage.
2. Mayhem can be used in conjunction with your territory, allowing you to dump a bunch of cards so it's far more profitable.

Also, I'd love an ANB dominant.

Master KChief · « **Reply #56 on:** November 23, 2012, 07:27:07 PM »

Quote from: Sadness on November 23, 2012, 05:59:48 PM

And realize this,doms are meant to be game changers,but they DON'T guarantee victory. Every card yall listed has pros and cons,but not one listed guarantees a immediate win.

Outside of Son of God (and not even that if someone is trolling with Altar of Ahaz

), no cards 'technically' guarantee a win. But there are cards that close that gap considerably greater than a lot of other cards, which creates an imbalanced meta. Those are the types cards that must be looked at closely.

Quote

I'm not in favor of banning any cards,but if Cactus decides on it,I hope they'll let us cast a vote on what card(s) to ban. Your thoughts?

Great idea! I like the idea of everyone casting a vote on what to possibly ban, but I also like the ideas of an experienced player to weigh more heavily than, say for instance, any random player. A ban list has the effect of molding and shaping a new competitive meta, so much significant thought and consideration should go into it before it becomes final.

cookie monster · « **Reply #57 on:** November 23, 2012, 09:41:16 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 23, 2012, 07:27:07 PM

Quote from: Sadness on November 23, 2012, 05:59:48 PM
And realize this,doms are meant to be game changers,but they DON'T guarantee victory. Every card yall listed has pros and cons,but not one listed guarantees a immediate win.

Outside of Son of God (and not even that if someone is trolling with Altar of Ahaz ), no cards 'technically' guarantee a win. But there are cards that close that gap considerably greater than a lot of other cards, which creates an imbalanced meta. Those are the types cards that must be looked at closely.

There is no card in the game that gives an advantage as big as you suggest. In the 2010 nats when mayhem could be payed on the first turn, in every game that I got first turn "mayhemed" (they played it on me) I ended up winning. that is 3 or 4 times, and most of those were not from "noobs". If you can give me 3 examples of one card giving someone a huge advantage that almost "gave" them the win.

Master KChief · « **Reply #58 on:** November 23, 2012, 10:04:52 PM »

Quote from: cookie monster on November 23, 2012, 09:41:16 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on November 23, 2012, 07:27:07 PM
Quote from: Sadness on November 23, 2012, 05:59:48 PM
And realize this,doms are meant to be game changers,but they DON'T guarantee victory. Every card yall listed has pros and cons,but not one listed guarantees a immediate win.

Outside of Son of God (and not even that if someone is trolling with Altar of Ahaz ), no cards 'technically' guarantee a win. But there are cards that close that gap considerably greater than a lot of other cards, which creates an imbalanced meta. Those are the types cards that must be looked at closely.

There is no card in the game that gives an advantage as big as you suggest. In the 2010 nats when mayhem could be payed on the first turn, in every game that I got first turn "mayhemed" (they played it on me) I ended up winning. that is 3 or 4 times, and most of those were not from "noobs".

Ask the 2010 T12P champ how many first turn Mayhem's he got. Come back when you know the answer.

JSB23 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 23, 2012, 10:09:17 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 23, 2012, 10:04:52 PM

Ask the 2010 T12P champ how many first turn Mayhem's he got. Come back when you know the answer.

I think you mean 2011...

Master KChief · « **Reply #60 on:** November 23, 2012, 10:28:03 PM »

Whichever one was last in Minnesota.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #61 on:** November 23, 2012, 10:47:57 PM »

what i want banned are chump block defences or barely any/no defence decks. they take all the fun out. if you know they have a chump block waiting and you go in it is just like, i wanna scream. when they have no defence, you are just walking in and having none of the fun of a battle that is offereds with a deck with an actual defence.

Red · « **Reply #62 on:** November 23, 2012, 11:43:29 PM »

Quote from: wyatt_marcum on November 23, 2012, 10:47:57 PM

what i want banned are chump block defences or barely any/no defence decks. they take all the fun out. if you know they have a chump block waiting and you go in it is just like, i wanna scream. when they have no defence, you are just walking in and having none of the fun of a battle that is offereds with a deck with an actual defence.

Play offenses that aren't chumped. Then you won't scream!

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #63 on:** November 23, 2012, 11:48:55 PM »

1/3 of my offence is bbn, but the with the rest, it is really annoying.

Josh · « **Reply #64 on:** November 24, 2012, 04:45:05 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on November 22, 2012, 12:02:52 PM

Don't be so naive. There's plenty of great defensive options

When defenses start getting "Negate and discard a good card. CBN if used by X theme" enhancements and CBP/CBN D3 characters, then they will finally be on the same level as current offenses. Cards like Zeal, Sam's Edict, Bravery of David, and MLaMG are unique to offenses, and all of these can be CBN if played properly. And D3 ECs aren't good enough; thanks to Isaiah, Daniel, Moses, FBTNB, and CWD, there's no reason a preventable EC should ever use its ability.

Quote

Mayhem isn't broken because of my personal experience playing with/against it

The number of people claiming that Mayhem isn't broken is astounding. It's too versatile, too powerful, and can generate WAY too much of a card advantage. Great decks don't care about shuffling away their hand and drawing 6 bad cards; if the deck is good, all that matters is card advantage and the 6 cards drawn will all be good.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #65 on:** November 24, 2012, 05:32:17 PM »

Was that second quote a generalization of what people have been saying? I can't find where somebody said that...

But in case that happens, PEMN! Personal Experience Means Nothing. Well, at least when it comes to ~~ranking characters~~ debating how good cards are.

Master KChief · « **Reply #66 on:** November 24, 2012, 06:40:12 PM »

Quote from: Westy on November 24, 2012, 05:32:17 PM

Was that second quote a generalization of what people have been saying? I can't find where somebody said that...

Quote from: cookie monster on November 23, 2012, 09:41:16 PM

There is no card in the game that gives an advantage as big as you suggest. In the 2010 nats when mayhem could be payed on the first turn, in every game that I got first turn "mayhemed" (they played it on me) I ended up winning. that is 3 or 4 times, and most of those were not from "noobs".

browarod · « **Reply #67 on:** November 24, 2012, 09:34:19 PM »

I'm all for not throwing all our bread in the basket of any one person's personal experience, but to say that "personal experience" as a whole means nothing is to take away the only basis from which you can draw any kind of ranking from. Everything in a card game is personal experience, lol.

Quote from: jmhartz on November 24, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

Great decks don't care about shuffling away their hand and drawing 6 bad cards; if the deck is good, all that matters is .... the 6 cards drawn will all be good.

This (minus the bit about card advantage, see my earlier posts about that) is exactly what I was saying earlier in this thread, although I was using it to support the opposite point of view. If you build your deck right, then the 6 cards you have after Mayhem (regardless of what you had before) will be more than sufficient (barring RNG having a grudge against you, of course

).

Isildur · « **Reply #68 on:** November 25, 2012, 12:11:57 AM »

Quote

The number of people claiming that Mayhem isn't broken is astounding. It's too versatile, too powerful, and can generate WAY too much of a card advantage. Great decks don't care about shuffling away their hand and drawing 6 bad cards; if the deck is good, all that matters is card advantage and the 6 cards drawn will all be good.

WOWOWOWWWWW hold on there partner! What if I dont want to play a "great" deck? My goal is not to win. My goal is to have fun and to fellowship! Isnt that the point of Redemption? Whats one way to do this? Not play a cookie cutter deck.

The old Decipher lotr tcg had some problems like ours towards the end of the movie block there were some over powered strategies I mean sure they were fun to play and you could win a tournament with it but whats the point when all the decks are the same? Gradually a gentlemens agreement formed where people wouldnt use these types of decks but that was long after the game died lol But nothing comes close the to thrill of demolishing your opponents with a tentacle deck in movie block! For the one person who knows what im talking about this is even more awesome then it seems.

One of the reasons ive sold all my cards is because im tired of getting trashed (part of it because of my lack of knowledge of the rules :p) by these boring cookie cutter decks. I mean even back in the FBTN days with enough skill they really were not that hard to beat but these TGT decks with their Mayhems, Auto Blocks, Doms and CBN cards its just really not that much fun any more... Even some of the new "themes" designed to be a alternate to TGT are just snooze fests! ooh I got Sam *puts deck on auto pilot* oh cool hey look guys I won!

Look at the great games that have existed! Middle Earth ccg and Netrunner (both new and old) are both prime examples. Middle Earth ccg sure it got complicated in its old age but there were 20,000 different strategies you could use and all of them sure some were stronger then others but with a skilled player at the helm you could win with even a starter deck. Netrunner zomg this game is hands down the only game where you can take a starter deck into a tournament and win!!! The game is totally strategy based! sure your opponents cards are better but with a little bluffing you can trash their deck with cards just from the base set. Redemption can no longer do this... it has fallen to... the cookie cutters! oh noes....

*Edit added some more stufff

Josh · « **Reply #69 on:** November 25, 2012, 01:08:41 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 24, 2012, 09:34:19 PM

Quote from: jmhartz on November 24, 2012, 04:45:05 PM
Great decks don't care about shuffling away their hand and drawing 6 bad cards; if the deck is good, all that matters is .... the 6 cards drawn will all be good.
This (minus the bit about card advantage, see my earlier posts about that) is exactly what I was saying earlier in this thread, although I was using it to support the opposite point of view. If you build your deck right, then the 6 cards you have after Mayhem (regardless of what you had before) will be more than sufficient (barring RNG having a grudge against you, of course ).

But that's my point as well. If both decks are well-built and being piloted by good players, the only thing Mayhem (on average) changes is the quantity of cards. And it makes a huge difference.

Take a non-extreme example; you have 7 cards in hand and your opponent has 4. They end their turn. You draw 3, they play Mayhem. You shuffle 10 cards and draw 6, and they shuffle 3 and draw 6. They just gained 7 cards on you. You may have the same number of cards in hand, but they have more cards in play.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #70 on:** November 25, 2012, 01:31:25 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 24, 2012, 09:34:19 PM

I'm all for not throwing all our bread in the basket of any one person's personal experience, but to say that "personal experience" as a whole means nothing is to take away the only basis from which you can draw any kind of ranking from. Everything in a card game is personal experience, lol.

I can objectively say that building a deck around TGT is far better than building a deck around Strength in Weakness. You can account for what decks consistently do well in the big scheme of things, and go from there. You can also see with cards like Mayhem how they are objectively extremely powerful, no matter the kind of luck people have with them. Provisions is a great card, but it's pretty easy to say "I've never found it useful." Does that mean it's not powerful? No. It means you don't have to use it if you don't like, but everybody else will be happy to get free souls from it.

Master KChief · « **Reply #71 on:** November 25, 2012, 02:00:58 AM »

Quote from: Isildur on November 25, 2012, 12:11:57 AM

WOWOWOWWWWW hold on there partner! What if I dont want to play a "great" deck? My goal is not to win. My goal is to have fun and to fellowship! Isnt that the point of Redemption? Whats one way to do this? Not play a cookie cutter deck.

Quote

One of the reasons ive sold all my cards is because im tired of getting trashed (part of it because of my lack of knowledge of the rules :p) by these boring cookie cutter decks. I mean even back in the FBTN days with enough skill they really were not that hard to beat but these TGT decks with their Mayhems, Auto Blocks, Doms and CBN cards its just really not that much fun any more... Even some of the new "themes" designed to be a alternate to TGT are just snooze fests! ooh I got Sam *puts deck on auto pilot* oh cool hey look guys I won!

I plussed your post because I don't want to discourage anyone from having a constructive argument in this thread and end up not posting anymore. I think everyone has raised a lot of valid points, and I think to an extent a lot of people can agree with yours as well. You say your goal is to not win but to have fun, and for a lot of people not winning because of getting roflstomped by overpowered cards is not fun at all. Watching a player play solitaire as he speeds out his deck and walks in for 3 free and drops the Sog/NJ is not something I think this game should adhere by; more games end up being fun when both players are engaging and interacting on an equal level. Because of this, I can get behind a ban list that hits the cards that have ended up causing the most Negative Play Experience, and start bringing Tier 2 and even Tier 3 level decks up a notch. How great would it be to have a Genesis, Judges, Luke/John, or even Deacons deck that actually has a good fighting chance against the likes of TGT, Disciples, Daniel, and Fight by the Numbers? Balance is a good thing, seeing a diverse meta is even better, and witnessing the new creative ideas starting to develop outside of using the 'cookie cutter' staples we have used for years, decades even, would be one of the best things ever for this game.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #72 on:** November 25, 2012, 02:20:39 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 25, 2012, 02:00:58 AM

How great would it be to have a Genesis, Judges, Luke/John, or even Deacons deck that actually has a good fighting chance against the likes of TGT, Disciples, Daniel, and Fight by the Numbers?

See, that's where it's just dependent on the defense. I've beaten The Deck more than I've lost to it with my Luke offense. There are options out there, people just don't play them.

(I play Greeks/Phillies. I use Naz, Sig Ring, RBD, CWD, and HHI for anti-meta stuff, plus Gates of Hell, Site Guard, and Herod's Treachery to defend even after they use Angel/Edict/whatever)

Master KChief · « **Reply #73 on:** November 25, 2012, 03:45:30 AM »

Quote from: Westy on November 25, 2012, 02:20:39 AM

See, that's where it's just dependent on the defense. I've beaten The Deck more than I've lost to it with my Luke offense. There are options out there, people just don't play them.

(I play Greeks/Phillies. I use Naz, Sig Ring, RBD, CWD, and HHI for anti-meta stuff, plus Gates of Hell, Site Guard, and Herod's Treachery to defend even after they use Angel/Edict/whatever)

With all the hate you have towards Dan decks, I'm not surprised you don't beat the snot out of Dan every time. But most of that hate is pretty narrow or easy to get rid of, specifically the artifact stuff. How are your matchups against other speedy decks in the meta, such as TGT, Disciples, FbtnB? It also must be considerably slow with all that tech stuffed in there as well.

I have no doubt that turtles and even balanced decks have the capability to beat speedy decks. But the problem is the consistency defense has versus offense. Since offense draws/tutors a whole heckuva lot better than defense, it's fairly easy for offense to have its most powerful tools readily available to them, especially in the early game. Defense doesn't have the plethora of awesome drawing set-asides, they don't have the awesome territory class enhancements. And a floater Evil Characters lifespan is certainly nowhere near as high as all the floater Heroes in the game. The only thing defense really has to rely on is the redundancy of its anti-meta tools available to them in the deck in hopes of having better odds of drawing it early. As the game progresses and goes on, then yes, the chances of decks with actual defenses winning does go up (after all, that is how turtles are designed to win: weak early game used building resources, strong end game). But if a decks defense is unable to make those necessary stops early game against a speedy deck setting up, then it's more than likely over. Early game right now favors offense far more than defense, and what goes on there usually sets the precedence for the rest of the game.

Master Q · « **Reply #74 on:** November 25, 2012, 04:21:48 PM »

Since 1st round Mayhems are gone and the dom cap is in place, Mayhem is not nearly as bad as it used to be. TGT is still a problem since it can just be dropped strategically for a free rescue if they don't have their defense set up or are protecting characters in hand. AUTO is the only card I can think of right now that is still absurdly broken, he's so versatile it's ridiculous.

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Author Topic: Banlist Brainstorming (Read 12937 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk