Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: Noah on August 14, 2017, 02:18:31 PM
-
Quote from Land of Redemption June 22nd 2016,
"If you missed the announcement on Redemption CCG’s Facebook page last week, and Justin’s video from yesterday, there will be an all new version of Cloud of Witnesses only available at Nationals!"
Quote from Land of Redemption March 8th 2017,
"Special edition Revelation of John card boxes will be sold by Cactus Game Design. These are only available at the National tournament!"
Quote from the Cactus Game Design Message Boards August 12th 2017,
"For a limited time, I am going to make the alternate border cards of both CoW and RoJ available for sale at the Cactus website."
This is nothing less than a major disappointment to everyone who invested time, money, and resources in being able to attend nationals both this and last year to purchase AB cards. Now, let me explain.
Many people, myself included, planned on attending and purchasing cards at nationals this year based on how the cards were received last year and the potential to invest in a special limited release that had a higher expected value then the regular release. Part of this equation was the fact that there were people who weren't able to attend nationals that would want AB cards, this ensured that there would be a strong secondary market.
Following this announcement, not only have the cards been significantly devalued because of an unexpected increase in supply, but the secondary market for the people who purchased cards at nationals is practically nonexistent because of the ensuing wide spread availability.
Do you want to know why the AB cards sold out so fast at nationals both years? Because they were perceived to have higher value due to a one time release and limited availability.
If this becomes the norm, there is no reason for someone to go out of their way to attend nationals just to purchase AB cards. Even if this never happens again it is setting the precedent that what was promised, that AB cards would only be available at nationals, is meaningless and, as a result, we can't trust any future promises about exclusivity or limited releases.
At the end of the day nobody really "needs" AB cards. We as players and collectors "want" them. By putting the collectible value of AB cards on the table I, as a collector, will be extremely weary of "investing" in future "limited releases". As a player, I find it frustrating that I was basically forced to buy "regular" RoJ cards just to be competitive leading up to nationals. If I knew that this was going to happen I would have held off on buying so much up front and waited till I knew I could get as many AB cards as I wanted, after having seen where the market would go.
If upholding the collectability of a product means nothing, then why not just have the regular release of the next set be "AB" instead of having two different releases? It doesn't make sense to me that if I wait till nationals I can pay the same per pack that I did at the beginning of the season and get cards that are functionally identical, but also significantly more valuable.
This may seem like an overreaction, but this is a slippery slope that is virtually impossible to come back from.
I'm sorry if any of you take what I've said personally, but I am very disappointed with this turn of events. The last thing I want to be is contentious, but sometimes being honest can sound harsh. All I want is what's best for Redemption and it's community and it's my opinion that this is bad for the player because they are forced to buy inferior product to be competitive, it's bad for the collectors because value is determined by supply instead of demand, and it's bad for Cactus as a company because they are sacrificing long term credibility for the sake of short term convenience.
-
I have many thoughts on this topic, but for the moment I would just ask everyone to keep in mind that Rob was in kind of a tough spot with this. There were many people who asked that AB cards be made available (through Cactus) to those who couldn't attend Nationals. No matter which way Rob decided, there were always going to be people who ended up disappointed.
I think back to when the create a card prize was introduced and there were some disagreements on how that should be done, and that a really fun idea became divisive for a time. I totally respect your thoughts on this (and others who have expressed similar sentiments), but hopefully we can find a positive way forward.
-
I am not affected financially as others are but I do dislike this decision because regardless of anyone's opinion on whether it should have happened or not, it will directly result in less people coming to Nationals if this is planned to be repeated for future sets. It's undoubtedly a good business decision since there is certainly demand for AB packs from people who would not have been able to make it Nats either way but it is a little disappointing for me to see a business decision made that negatively impacts the tournament scene. I of course have no way of knowing the sales stats and such but given the overwhelming success of the normal print of RoJ I wouldn't have thought this kind of action would be necessary.
The point in the main post I agree with the most is that if the AB packs are losing their uniqueness, then all cards should just be innately "AB" so competitive players aren't forced to buy the plain cards in order to be able to use them leading up to Nationals.
-
I appreciate your thoughts on this Noah (and Josiah, Terry, Chris).
Sincerely, I was trying to do something nice for the community. It is certainly more work on our end to offer these cards a second time. My sense was that demand outweighed supply for these cards and I was trying to make them available for limited time just this once. I would not repeat the offer for either CoW or RoJ again.
I could:
a) abandon the entire idea.
b) move forward but, limit order size to one display box per customer.
c) Set no limit but increase the price to say $6.00 per pack and with no extra discount per display. IE. people that came to nationals bought their packs at $4.00 and people buying during the two week window would pay 1/3 more.
Any of the above may affect people that sold cards in the last few days. But, that’s water under the bridge.
Because I discussed the idea with a number of people at Nationals, I was conflicted in that some people wanting to sell their cards knew it was a strong possibility and others did not know. That felt like ‘insider trading.’ This is why I made the announcement sooner rather than later.
In any case, I am listening to the fan base and trying to find a solution that will work better for most of you.
Thoughts?
-
I appreciate your thoughts on this Noah (and Josiah, Terry, Chris).
Sincerely, I was trying to do something nice for the community. It is certainly more work on our end to offer these cards a second time. My sense was that demand outweighed supply for these cards and I was trying to make them available for limited time just this once. I would not repeat the offer for either CoW or RoJ again.
I could:
a) abandon the entire idea.
b) move forward but, limit order size to one display box per customer.
c) Set no limit but increase the price to say $6.00 per pack and with no extra discount per display. IE. people that came to nationals bought their packs at $4.00 and people buying during the two week window would pay 1/3 more.
Any of the above may affect people that sold cards in the last few days. But, that’s water under the bridge.
Because I discussed the idea with a number of people at Nationals, I was conflicted in that some people wanting to sell their cards knew it was a strong possibility and others did not know. That felt like ‘insider trading.’ This is why I made the announcement sooner rather than later.
In any case, I am listening to the fan base and trying to find a solution that will work better for most of you.
Thoughts?
Thanks for the response. The main bit of information I would like to know is if the sale of AB packs outside of Nationals will become regular practice for future sets or if this is a one time event caused by the immense demand. I know you clarified this is a one time event for CoW and RoJ but I haven't heard what the plans are for future Redemption sets.
-
Justin beat me to the main point that I wanted to bring up. There were a lot of people who were upset by the "exclusiveness" of National only cards. I'm sure Rob thought the best of both worlds was to go ahead with the Alternate border cards, allowing people to get them early, and possibly sell/trade them before this announcement. Then that also gives people who didn't get a chance to go to Nationals as a chance to get them, and not "punish" them because they couldn't get to Nationals for many different (and all valid) reasons.
Obviously you can't please everyone and that is unfortunate, but I don't personally see this re-release as a bad thing! I'm as big of a collector as anyone, and I love the re-release. It gives me an opportunity to complete the sets I'm been trying to trade for since Nationals last year, and it also allows me to do it two ways. I can buy boxes to complete the set myself and then trade excess, or I can wait for everyone else to buy boxes and trade for their excess!
Now, if you are a person who plans to go to Nationals and buy/win a bunch of stuff and sell it to make your money back, sure I see how this can be disappointing, but I would venture to say that the people able to do that (both this and last year) can be counted on both hands (if not just one). I would say the majority of people (including myself) that go to Nationals do it to play a game they love and to either meet people they have never met before, or catch up with "old" friends and see how life is.
As far as "cheapening" the game some, I (personally) don't see that as an issue. Mostly because as much as I love this game, and all the time and money I've spent on it, I understand I will NEVER get my money back for this game. If I sold all of my cards, I probably still wouldn't even come close to all the money I spent. But I don't play this game for that. I play this game because I love it! I teach this game because I really remember most of the stories I've heard because of these cards that depict the Bible so well. I also teach it so that others can find someone or something in the Bible they don't know about and I can share that story with them.
I know I have a unique perspective as I am able to spend some excess money on this game (with my wife's approval), and I know I'm not ever going to make money on it (as I don't really try to). All of this being said, I don't discredit your thoughts or concerns. I just wanted to share my thoughts about the re-release.
-
Following this announcement, not only have the cards been significantly devalued because of an unexpected increase in supply, but the secondary market for the people who purchased cards at nationals is practically nonexistent because of the ensuing wide spread availability.
Honestly, I think there's still a secondary market for singles. I know of just two people who sold complete (or near-complete) sets and I think they were to the same person. I could be wrong, but I think there just isn't a huge market for complete sets because that's a huge chunk of change to drop all at one time. I went to Nationals, bought 29 packs, but had definitely hoped to buy another full box. Though I'm not really a collector, I'm still trying to piece together a full set by buying singles since I have most of a complete set--but I'm not going to buy an entire full set.
-
I'm still trying to piece together a full set by buying singles since I have most of a complete set--but I'm not going to buy an entire full set.
This, so much this! I went to Nationals last year and decided not to purchase a box of AB Cloud and just get a complete set instead. That decision ended up costing me 5 times more than it did this year and I'm less than a dozen cards from a complete set.
-
With the success of the AB cards and the visual aid of Gabe's borderless deck in '16 why are we not just producing the "AB" cards?
Isn't there something else we could give to people who go to nationals as an incentive (you know besides the fun, fellowship, winner's promos, and the chance to win the point total for the year)?
It doesn't seem to make much sense to me to continue to produce "regular" versions of the cards when the AB versions are agreed to be VASTLY superior.
Wouldn't it make sense to just begin producing all of the sets as if they were AB sets? The AB version is a much better product. Everyone did such a great job with them! Why not just make that the standard?
-
Following this announcement, not only have the cards been significantly devalued because of an unexpected increase in supply, but the secondary market for the people who purchased cards at nationals is practically nonexistent because of the ensuing wide spread availability.
Honestly, I think there's still a secondary market for singles. I know of just two people who sold complete (or near-complete) sets and I think they were to the same person. I could be wrong, but I think there just isn't a huge market for complete sets because that's a huge chunk of change to drop all at one time. I went to Nationals, bought 29 packs, but had definitely hoped to buy another full box. Though I'm not really a collector, I'm still trying to piece together a full set by buying singles since I have most of a complete set--but I'm not going to buy an entire full set.
Yes they were. 8)
And I will still buy a box or so of the AB cards for my kids and playgroup
-
I appreciate your thoughts on this Noah (and Josiah, Terry, Chris).
Sincerely, I was trying to do something nice for the community. It is certainly more work on our end to offer these cards a second time. My sense was that demand outweighed supply for these cards and I was trying to make them available for limited time just this once. I would not repeat the offer for either CoW or RoJ again.
I could:
a) abandon the entire idea.
b) move forward but, limit order size to one display box per customer.
c) Set no limit but increase the price to say $6.00 per pack and with no extra discount per display. IE. people that came to nationals bought their packs at $4.00 and people buying during the two week window would pay 1/3 more.
Any of the above may affect people that sold cards in the last few days. But, that’s water under the bridge.
Because I discussed the idea with a number of people at Nationals, I was conflicted in that some people wanting to sell their cards knew it was a strong possibility and others did not know. That felt like ‘insider trading.’ This is why I made the announcement sooner rather than later.
In any case, I am listening to the fan base and trying to find a solution that will work better for most of you.
Thoughts?
In the end I see the value on both sides.
At this point I don't know if there is a more moral solution then another.
I guess the fairest thing IMO would be to charge 6.00 dollars a pack for the AB cards. That helps them hold value and still allows players who couldn't/didn't attend nats to have access.
That said I know that may hurt sales for Cactus and I would prefer to see the Mothership of Redemption soaring not putting along. The best thing for Cactus is in turn the best thing for Redemption.
Honestly it got sticky.
As a player who probably ate it as hard as anyone financially. (Buying for resale, selling discounted to recoup at least something after the announcement)
- I would choose to put others collectors, Cactus and the redemption community before myself. I think selling the cards at 5.00 per pack and 96.00 per display box is the right choice at this point. In the future we really need to have a foreknowledge of all potential/actual availability before people make any purchases.
Thanks for hearing the community Rob. Thanks for your leadership, thank you for Redemption.
-
Should we have a community vote on Rob's 3 options?? :dunno: :dunno:
As for my intake on this , mine is pretty similar about being worried about the exclusivity of it.
If the AB cards were only going to be exclusive to Nationals since 2016 why not keep it the same?? :dunno: :dunno:
-
What if . . .
A secondary release of the previous year(s)' AB cards were released prior to Christmas? So this year just additional AB CoW cards would be available. Next Christmas CoW AB and RoJ AB would be made available on a buy to print scale and continue this trend.
This still provides incentive for nats attendees but will also give none attendees a chance get in on the action later on down the road?
If something like this became the standard then everyone would know what and when AB cards will be available.
-
What if . . .
A secondary release of the previous year(s)' AB cards were released prior to Christmas? So this year just additional AB CoW cards would be available. Next Christmas CoW AB and RoJ AB would be made available on a buy to print scale and continue this trend.
This still provides incentive for nats attendees but will also give none attendees a chance get in on the action later on down the road?
I think this could be a great compromise (depending on Rob's feelings)! This would allow over a year for the AB market to have its place, and still give people who couldn't make Nationals (or willing to wait) a chance to get the cards too! It also allows for collectors to try to complete more than one set (eventually).
-
What if . . .
A secondary release of the previous year(s)' AB cards were released prior to Christmas? So this year just additional AB CoW cards would be available. Next Christmas CoW AB and RoJ AB would be made available on a buy to print scale and continue this trend.
This still provides incentive for nats attendees but will also give none attendees a chance get in on the action later on down the road?
I think this could be a great compromise (depending on Rob's feelings)! This would allow over a year for the AB market to have its place, and still give people who couldn't make Nationals (or willing to wait) a chance to get the cards too! It also allows for collectors to try to complete more than one set (eventually).
+1
-
I appreciate your thoughts on this Noah (and Josiah, Terry, Chris).
Sincerely, I was trying to do something nice for the community. It is certainly more work on our end to offer these cards a second time. My sense was that demand outweighed supply for these cards and I was trying to make them available for limited time just this once. I would not repeat the offer for either CoW or RoJ again.
I could:
a) abandon the entire idea.
b) move forward but, limit order size to one display box per customer.
c) Set no limit but increase the price to say $6.00 per pack and with no extra discount per display. IE. people that came to nationals bought their packs at $4.00 and people buying during the two week window would pay 1/3 more.
Any of the above may affect people that sold cards in the last few days. But, that’s water under the bridge.
Because I discussed the idea with a number of people at Nationals, I was conflicted in that some people wanting to sell their cards knew it was a strong possibility and others did not know. That felt like ‘insider trading.’ This is why I made the announcement sooner rather than later.
In any case, I am listening to the fan base and trying to find a solution that will work better for most of you.
Thoughts?
You can't please everyone but I think you should go with option A.
-
Of the options Rob presented, I lean towards B.
I could also get behind Josiah's idea of doing CoW AB this year and RoJ AB next year.
-
I personally like Josiah's idea as it keeps AB cards more exclusive right after nats while giving people who did not attend nationals a chance to get them in the future.
-
I think Josiah's idea is the best one.
-
What makes this decision difficult is that the supply of AB cards is super small... only what? 100 people had the ability to buy these packs?
I mean there are only a handful of other games where there are literally only 14-17(?)(The AB Son of God promo) of one card in circulation. That might be up there with the old school Burial signed Ben Go promos in rarity.
Normally I would say that reprinting a limited run set shouldn't be done... but since the supply is so small it would make sense to give that to the community.
If this is done I think there needs to be an established number of print runs for these "limited" sets. So of course the initial print run at Nats and then X print runs post Nats. But that's it. Make sure to establish how many print runs a "limited" set will go through when they are released at Nats.
This increases the number of cards out there but also establishes that players investments won't get completely tanked by unlimited print runs.
Ether that or like someone else said just make all the sets AB :P They do look pretty slick!
-
I know this might not be possible but it would be nice to just have the chance to get an AB card in a normal box
-
What makes this decision difficult is that the supply of AB cards is super small... only what? 100 people had the ability to buy these packs?
I mean there are only a handful of other games where there are literally only 14-17(?)(The AB Son of God promo) of one card in circulation. That might be up there with the old school Burial signed Ben Go promos in rarity.
Normally I would say that reprinting a limited run set shouldn't be done... but since the supply is so small it would make sense to give that to the community.
If this is done I think there needs to be an established number of print runs for these "limited" sets. So of course the initial print run at Nats and then X print runs post Nats. But that's it. Make sure to establish how many print runs a "limited" set will go through when they are released at Nats.
This increases the number of cards out there but also establishes that players investments won't get completely tanked by unlimited print runs.
Ether that or like someone else said just make all the sets AB :P They do look pretty slick!
The problem is the redemption player base is so small these numbers are a ton more reasonable than they would be in other TCGs, where you have hundreds of thousands/millions of players.
the problem I see with AB sets in general is it's a need vs want conflict. AB sets are 100% want because they are identical to the regular set except for the awesome art, and regular sets are 100% need since they come out before Nats when the AB sets are released and people need the cards to be competitive in states/regionals.
Crazy groundbreaking idea coming:
What if Redemption did what every other TCG I know of (namely Magic and Pokemon) does and mix in the "special" cards (in other games foil cards) with the regular set? This way every set becomes 50% need and 50% want. It supplies the competitive/regular players for States/Regionals/Nats/People who just want the newest set before/during States Regionals, and it supplies the collector with the special version of the cards. All While retaining the value and promoting a secondary market around the "special" cards.
Just my :2cents:
Edit: tripleplayna1 just posted pretty much the same thing while I was writing this....
Another Edit:
I think option B that Rob suggested is the best way to go if it's decided that the AB sets will be reprinted once more since 1 box + 6 packs (essentially 1 box) is the restriction that everybody at Nats was under. Since the boxes ran out halfway through the 2nd day I think there was an underestimation of the demand for them and it wouldn't do too much harm to the secondary market if that gap is filled.
-
I vote for option B
-
Overall I think having AB cards around encourages playing Redemption. Everyone loves the normal sets but the AB cards are just awesome hands down. I think it would be cool to potentially include 1 AB card in a pack as younger and newer players don't get to experience the awesomeness of AB cards unless the go to nationals or really want to collect sets. I just feel it could be a missed opportunity to encourage the more casual players to continue to play. Placing an AB card in a pack also could change the overall value of the AB cards and the sets as a whole which may not sit well with some and could either +/- influence pack/set values.
Regardless of what does happen I support having the AB cards and support Rob trying to increase the supply. However that looks in the end and is best for the promotion of supporting Cactus and more people playing I'm for.
-
I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.
-
I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.
I am curious if rob would consider the 4th idea I presented or the 5th idea JohnathanW presented. Perhaps we could give him a chance to respond to those ideas prior to a vote taking place.
-
Crazy groundbreaking idea coming:
What if Redemption did what every other TCG I know of (namely Magic and Pokemon) does and mix in the "special" cards (in other games foil cards) with the regular set? This way every set becomes 50% need and 50% want. It supplies the competitive/regular players for States/Regionals/Nats/People who just want the newest set before/during States Regionals, and it supplies the collector with the special version of the cards. All While retaining the value and promoting a secondary market around the "special" cards.
Just my :2cents:
Out of the suggested options I like this the most. In addition, packs at Nationals could continue to be 100% AB cards so as to maintain the value incentive for people traveling to Nats.
I rarely advocate for doing things because it's how everyone else does it, but many other card games that have come before us have gone through plenty of trial and error to determine that this is the best way to handle "special" versions of cards.
-
I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.
I am curious if rob would consider the 4th idea I presented. Perhaps we could give him a chance to respond to that idea prior to a vote taking place.
Yeah, I like that idea as well...offer them. BUT offer them the following year so that the NAT AB cards have a chance to circulate.
-
I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.
I am curious if rob would consider the 4th idea I presented or the 5th idea JohnathanW presented. Perhaps we could give him a chance to respond to those ideas prior to a vote taking place.
I think there are two different sets of ideas here. Rob's 3 options of what to do right now, and the other options we've presented about what to do going forward.
-
Definitely think the one box limit is a good idea. I will also say that the use of "Ringers" to purchase beyond the box limit at Nationals leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
-
I personally like the 4th option presented by Josiah. It seems to be the best compromise to me. Of the 3 rob gave I'd pick option 3
-
Haven't read every post in detail yet. If someone will summarize options #4 & #5 I'll add them to the poll.
-
Option 4
Release the previous years AB cards around Christmas time each year. Christmas 2017 CoW AB cards, Christmas 2018 RoJ AB cards, Christmas 2019 Next Set AB etc.
Option 5
Incorporate 1 AB card into standard packs to provide extra chase value. (Start this post nats, allowing players who attend nats to still have access to AB packs at nats.)
-
Option 6 - 25% senior discount for all AB cards for players over 60. :)
When is Rob going to decide on what option he is going to take?
-
I added options 4 and 5 tonthe poll. I imagine option 5 is a lot more work for Cactus and doubt that it's realistic though.
-
Option 6 - 25% senior discount for all AB cards for players over 60. :)
When is Rob going to decide on what option he is going to take?
:thumbup:
-
I added options 4 and 5 tonthe poll. I imagine option 5 is a lot more work for Cactus and doubt that it's realistic though.
Is there a way to reset a vote? :)
-
I added options 4 and 5 tonthe poll. I imagine option 5 is a lot more work for Cactus and doubt that it's realistic though.
Is there a way to reset a vote? :)
There is a remove vote button.
-
I added options 4 and 5 tonthe poll. I imagine option 5 is a lot more work for Cactus and doubt that it's realistic though.
Is there a way to reset a vote? :)
There is a remove vote button.
Thanks, sorry it has been a long work day, and I just got done reading 60 pages in Chafer's Systematic Theology for one of my classes...so my eyes are a bit wonky... :o
-
I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.
I am curious if rob would consider the 4th idea I presented or the 5th idea JohnathanW presented. Perhaps we could give him a chance to respond to those ideas prior to a vote taking place.
I don't think we should even be voting on this at this point. The conversation has really just started and I think we're throwing a lot of good observations and ideas out there. I know the intent of the poll isn't to make a decision on the spot, but I'd hate to see this whole discussion shut down by the results of a poll that's supposed to be used to "gauge feedback" I get the feeling that this poll will only cause a mob mentality....
-
I really like options 4 and 5... Option 4 is nice because you get X number of print runs before the set is gone forever and Option 5 is fun because it adds something new to opening packs. There's a reason people open up a silly amount of boxes of MTG so they can get the AB or Full Art cards.
-
I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.
I am curious if rob would consider the 4th idea I presented or the 5th idea JohnathanW presented. Perhaps we could give him a chance to respond to those ideas prior to a vote taking place.
I don't think we should even be voting on this at this point. The conversation has really just started and I think we're throwing a lot of good observations and ideas out there. I know the intent of the poll isn't to make a decision on the spot, but I'd hate to see this whole discussion shut down by the results of a poll that's supposed to be used to "gauge feedback" I get the feeling that this poll will only cause a mob mentality....
In addition to these points, the poll will be skewed towards the first 3 answers because many people won't bother to come back later and revote on the new options even if they would have preferred them. Case in point, at this time, more people have upvoted my comment about mixing them into regular packs than have voted on the poll for mixing them into regular packs.
-
Well option 4 is essentially option 1, and option 5 isn't relevant to the issue.
-
First, I'd like to thank everyone for all the valuable input and constructive discussion thus far.
I realized that I may not have been totally clear on my reason for writing this and what prompted me to say what I said.
My main concern isn't necessarily the value of my "investment". My main concern is that by printing more AB cards from sets that were said to be "only at nationals" it sets the precedent that what was promised, in the case of CoW AB over a year ago, can be overturned at a later date based purely on popular opinion and gut feelings.
Now, that's not to say that Rob doesn't want what's best for the community and what's best for the growth of the game as a whole. I am 100% sure that Rob wants to take the course of action that is the most conducive to growing and strengthening Redemption and its community. I am merely asking the question, "At what cost?".
I would rather see the distribution of AB cards for years to come be modified in such a way that they are more accessible to the majority of the community than for the promises concerning these first two AB sets to be made void because of popular pressure.
This situation is very reminiscent of what happened at nationals this year when we "voted" to do 8 rounds of swiss instead of top cut. There were literally 5 months leading up to nationals when everyone knew that there would be a top 4 top cut. Now, in my opinion, top 8 is far superior and would have been preferred, but, nonetheless, top 4 was announced, and I built my deck and practiced accordingly. Then, the day of T1-2P, there was a "vote" to determine whether or not we do top cut.
I didn't say anything at the time, but this was very disheartening to me and has left a bad taste in my mouth for "votes" concerning policies and promises. Not only were people forced to play an extra round of swiss compared to one less with top cut, but the community also missed out on at least 4, potentially 6, recordings of game play at the highest level Redemption has to offer. Not only did the people who would not have made top cut have to play for an additional round, they also, myself included, did not even get to watch and fellowship around the games that were televised. That saddens me.
Now, maybe I'm just too trusting. That's likely the case. But part of being trusting means that I am sensitive when my trust is violated. It saddens me to see others lose their integrity because of popular demand.
I did not intend for this to turn into a vote. There has been less than 12 hours of discussion concerning a topic that will influence the form Redemption takes both as a game and as a community for years to come.
I believe that the moral thing to do is abide by what was agreed for last year and this year prior to nationals concerning the availability of AB cards, but also change the distribution method going forward, in a transparent and concise manner, to make future AB sets more available to the community both for the enjoyment and expansion of the game and its community. Popular opinion doesn't decide what's moral. That's moral relativism.
This is my conviction.
-
I believe that the moral thing to do is abide by what was agreed for last year and this year prior to nationals concerning the availability of AB cards, but also change the distribution method going forward, in a transparent and concise manner, to make future AB sets more available to the community both for the enjoyment and expansion of the game and its community. Popular opinion doesn't decide what's moral. That's moral relativism.
This is my conviction.
+1 I agree keeping your word is more important then trying to making everyone else happy!
I believe Integrity is one of the the greatest quality a man can have nowadays.
-
I'm not as upset about this as I would have been last year. Last year I bought A LOT of AB CoW. This year, I bought the limit for AB RoJ, pulled a Three Woes and I was done. I was ready to spend more money to get one, but once I pulled that card I was done purchasing.
I think what gets to me is that the packs were said to be "only at nationals" and now they are now being offered elsewhere. If it was stated before hand that this would happen (which is a fair idea for the future, if you ask me) then it would not concern me as much. I think it just really caught a lot of people by surprise.
I think it was great that they sold out, and that the cards look amazing and if I could, I would get everyone a copy of a few cards. I am aware of (I won't name anyone) that quite a few people were paying others to go and buy additional boxes so they could get more than the limit, but that is a separate issue.
I think Rob has the right to offer the AB cards now for other people, but I would just ask for a heads up in the future. I can't imagine that it would overflood the market with ABs, but again, I understand that some people use their ABs to help fund travel and expenses.
-
I think we should avoid referring to the announcements made regarding AB cards as "promises." I think they are better referred to as "plans" and we all know that sometimes plans change based on unexpected circumstances. While it's true the original plan was only to sell the AB at Nationals, there could have been any number of factors that would have led to a change.
--If the shipment of AB had been delayed or damaged, (leaving Rob with only a partial order), I believe he would have found a way to give players further opportunity to order AB cards. Seems doubtful to me that people would have been upset with him doing that.
--If Rob ended up way over-ordering and had boxes left over, I don't think we would expect him to dispose of those cards and take a loss when clearly there would be people who would have bought them. I believe someone asked about this possibility at one point, and while I'm not an official spokesperson for Cactus, my answer at the time was that Rob would likely make them available on a first come, first serve basis (either here or the Cactus website depending on just how many were left over).
--If the attendance at Nationals had unexpectedly doubled from last year and Rob ran out before everyone had a chance to buy some, I believe he would have allowed for special orders post-Nationals for those attendees who didn't get an opportunity to buy the AB. Would people really have been upset if this had occurred? I would hope not.
I know of several people who were disappointed that they were only able to purchase one box at Nationals so as I mentioned in my earlier post, apparently there will be disappointment regardless of the outcome, (which is unfortunate since the AB cards are so awesome). It's also worth noting that this is only the second year Cactus has done this so I think it's a bit unfair to expect Rob to have a perfect system immediately--last year the AB packs didn't sell out until late on the last day, and while Rob did increase this year's supply by a bit, obviously he couldn't anticipate the huge increase in demand. I don't know exactly when Rob brought up the idea of a re-release, but I know he started discussing with people relatively soon after he saw how quickly the AB packs were selling.
Another thing that we shouldn't forget is that those of us who were fortunate enough to attend Nationals had the opportunity to buy the packs at the $4 price point. Even if additional AB packs are made available for a limited time, Nationals attendees still got a higher value.
In the end, I will respect any decision Rob comes to because as much as I know he listens to the players and their thoughts on what is best for the game, I know he listens to God first and foremost. Consequently, I will have no reason to question his integrity.
-
+1
I'd like to add that I feel like the outcry of how AB cards received at Nationals will be devalued is greatly over exaggerated. The value may be impacted a little, long term, but it's not like the marked is going to be suddenly flooded with AB cards.
Most of us are Americans, and whether or not we like to admit it are part of the "gotta have it now, fast food, microwave" culture that does not wait if it doesn't have to. For that reason alone most people aren't going to wait until Christmas to get something they want and can have now. The point being that if your goal was to buy AB RoJ at Nationals and resell them afterwards, the limited release taking place in a few months doesn't really hurt you all that much. If you're having trouble selling AB RoJ there are probably other factors involved (like too many people with the same idea).
-
I'd like to add that I feel like the outcry of how AB cards received at Nationals will be devalued is greatly over exaggerated. The value may be impacted a little, long term, but it's not like the market is going to be suddenly flooded with AB cards.
The point being that if your goal was to buy AB RoJ at Nationals and resell them afterwards, the limited release taking place in a few months doesn't really hurt you all that much. If you're having trouble selling AB RoJ there are probably other factors involved (like too many people with the same idea).
Umm . . . . . Your demonstrating the point I've been making all along. You literally stated that the market isn't flooded and it won't be flooded by an additional release. Then said "too many people" are selling.
A flooded market isn't 1,000,000 AB 3 Woes with 100,000,000 buyers. However 100 AB 3 Woes with 75 Buyers is more then flooded it is crushed. Another release only adds a "cheaper" way for the 10 buyers not at nats to get ahold of AB 3 Woes. They don't need to buy it anywhere near retail rom someone who went to nats.
I know that redemption is mostly a sacrifice/ministry for Rob and not a money maker. I fully back Cactus and Rob no matter what decision is made. I personally want Cactus and Rob to succeed in all their endeavors because he is a friend and brother in Christ. I selfishly want them to succeed for the continuation of redemption. If Rob can make some money on redemption through a second "delayed" release from here on out, I say go for it.
-
Rob did increase this year's supply by a bit, obviously he couldn't anticipate the huge increase in demand.
Just to be clear, the RoJ packs we made to sell and award as prizes at Nationals this year was slightly less than CoW sold at Nationals in 2016 (about 15% less). However, more RoJ UR's were distributed as prizes than CoW UR's in 2016. I.E. there are currently fewer AB RoJ commons and rares than AB CoW commons and rares. But, there are more RoJ UR's than CoW UR's. Does that sound correct to you Gabe? (Gabe helped a great deal in arranging the prizes in 2016 and 2017).
Regarding options:
I don't like jacking up the price on the packs past $5.00 and regret even suggesting it.
I also don't like the idea of trying to mix alternate border cards in with regular border cards.
What I think strikes a reasonably good balance is a one time offer (for two weeks only) 2nd chance at the CoW cards this year and (depending on how it goes) offering a second chance at the AB RoJ cards in 2018. I will also know months in advance of Nationals 2018 if the model is working and let people know before they make travel plans if the cards released in 2018 will likely be made available again in 2019.
Additional discussion invited.
-
Thank you Rob!
I hope the secondary release becomes a staple and that people really get behind it.
-
Thanks Rob, I appreciate the steady communication on the issue.
If mixing AB cards into regular packs is not an option, the year delayed secondary release option is definitely what I would get behind.
-
Thanks for clarifying Rob--I thought you mentioned there being slightly more during our conversation at Nationals, but I must have misunderstood.
Certainly did not mean to mislead anyone.
-
Since Cactus' sales will likely be far less if it only offers CoW AB this Christmas instead of both CoW AB and RoJ AB, and wanting to see Redemption expand and grow as much as possible, I'd prefer if both AB sets were offered. Perhaps if we as a community understood the correlation between the option that is chosen and the ensuing result upon the growth of the game, more people would want both sets offered.
-
I would love to have the alternate border art become standard border art and do away with the whole alternate border idea. The AB look so much sharper, nicer, thematic and inviting than the regular border, but you can only get the AB at Nats anyways. It's asking a lot for people to re-purchase functionally the same cards again just for the different border art.
Regarding borderless, personally, I wish all of the cards were borderless as they definitely look the best, but if that's not really an option they can continue to be used as the standard layout for promos and prizes.
-
I would love to have the alternate border art become standard border art and do away with the whole alternate border idea. The AB look so much sharper, nicer, thematic and inviting than the regular border, but you can only get the AB at Nats anyways. It's asking a lot for people to re-purchase functionally the same cards again just for the different border art.
Regarding borderless, personally, I wish all of the cards were borderless as they definitely look the best, but if that's not really an option they can continue to be used as the standard layout for promos and prizes.
100% +1
-
I'm glad to see we all agree that the current model for distributing AB cards is not in the best interest of the community and should be changed going forward.
Promise,
1. assure someone that one will definitely do, give, or arrange something; undertake or declare that something will happen.
2. give good grounds for expecting (a particular occurrence or situation).
What was said concerning the availability of AB cards, by this definition, is, at least to me, clearly a "promise" of sorts because the precedent has been for well over a year now that the cards would only be released at nationals and that was everybody's expectation right up until the announcement was made.
Even if you call it a "plan" instead of a "promise", the method and timing of all this is still highly questionable and unfortunate. Like Rob said, he was in a tight spot and it felt like insider trading, and, from my perspective, it was. Honestly, if last years set was received so well then the method of distribution should have been changed for this years release. But it wasn't. If this announcement had come even a week before nationals it would have at the very least allowed everybody to make decisions knowing what was going to happen.
In the past couple of years both Magic and Pokemon reprinted sets that were "out of print" and they lost credibility with investors because of how they handled it. Now, the Redemption scene is much smaller and there isn't nearly as much money involved, but, from a business perspective, the principle should remain the same and the scale or demographic of the Redemption community shouldn't be used as justification to ignore it.
I think that going forward the community has overwhelmingly stated that AB cards are good for the game as a whole and I hope that it is possible to either expand the release of AB cards substantially, or replace the regular release with AB cards all together. I think anything less than this leaves the possibility of something like this happening again in the future.
At the end of the day I am fully behind whatever Rob decides to do knowing that he has taken the time to discuss this and weigh all the pros and cons.
Thank you again for all of the constructive discussion that has taken place so far. I'm proud to be part of such a wonderful community.
-
+1
-
Didn't read everything, but are orders being taken for these boxes yet?
-
Didn't read everything, but are orders being taken for these boxes yet?
Short Answer, No.
Here's the original thread from Rob found at "http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-market/alternate-border-cards-2nd-release/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-market/alternate-border-cards-2nd-release/)"
We released a set of alternate border Cloud of Witnesses cards at Nationals 2016 and an alternate border set of Revelation of John cards at Nationals 2017. Response has been overwhelming. Yet, a number of people are not able to make it to Nationals to obtain these cards. After consulting with a number of collectors at Nationals earlier this month, I have decided to do the following:
For a limited time, I am going to make the alternate border cards of both CoW and RoJ available for sale at the Cactus website.
The offer will be made available in mid October. We will take prepaid pre-orders for two weeks and then order cards from our printer in early November. You should receive your cards around mid December.
Cost will be $5.00 per pack or $108.00 per display box.
-
I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Rob Anderson.
-
I'm a big fan of maintaining the incentive to go to Nationals. The first thing people ask me when I tell them I was at Redemption Nationals is "how many people were there?" Keeping them as a thing you can literally only get at Nationals is great for promoting attendance.
That being said, not every collector can make it to every Nationals. I like the idea of a special set icon for the Nationals run only, but also do a small print off AB to be released one or two seasons later. Pre-orders for this second AB printing could also aid cashflow.
-
I'm a big fan of maintaining the incentive to go to Nationals. The first thing people ask me when I tell them I was at Redemption Nationals is "how many people were there?" Keeping them as a thing you can literally only get at Nationals is great for promoting attendance.
I'm necessarily disagreeing with this point, but I do wonder how much the AB cards make the difference between someone going and not going? For me personally, I love that we've been able to do them and it's become one of the things I look forward to the most. However, even if we didn't have the opportunity to do AB, I'm pretty sure I would still go to Nats--it just wouldn't be quite as epic. I would be interested to know if there are people who would decide to pass on Nationals if that incentive was not there (i.e. the AB style was used for the regular release and there wasn't a distinctive "Nats only" set).
-
For me it's about the hype factor. If only part of a playgroup goes to Nationals and comes back with awesome cards that they get to show off ever play group, and simply insofar as it contributes to the festivities of the weekend, I believe more will try harder to go to get those sweet sweet AB cards. I also saw a lot of fun and fellowship around people comparing lists and playing a special trading minigame.
It also allows for some cool situations regarding finances. Through the exclusivity of the winner promos, there's real (not massive, but real) incentive to invest and preform. Also, if you buy a box and get the Three Woes of the set as a newer player, you can easily flesh out your whole collection of that one card or sell it and get the rest of the box practically free! The fact that only the national promo is exclusive in terms of what the cards do that's exclusive makes me feel like it's not too punishing to those without means to go to Nationals anyway.
-
I would be really excited if CoW AB was reprinted during Christmas time with the same one ultra guarantee like RoJ
-
I had been holding off on putting up the AB RoJ cards I had from this year to allow for folks who attended to recoup some of their investment. I have a strong sense now that we will be going with a year delayed secondary release at Christmas, I will begin putting up my RoJ AB cards on TLG. I honestly think it is the best option of the ones given. I was strong on the "abandon the idea completely" side until this last option was added. Thanks to Rob and everyone else who had a hand in bringing this discussion to a fruitful place. This is another reason why I love this community.
-
While it seems the one year delay for re-release is the best compromise, I would still be happy to have the "Allow each person to buy one additional box" option as that was what I had hoped to do at Nationals (and I'm guessing many others as well). While I understand I could have had someone who wasn't going to buy a box get another one for me right away, I decided to just wait for the limit to be lifted so that everyone had the opportunity to buy their first box. Guess I know better for next year... :dunno:
For those who were opposed to the re-release idea for this year, I (kind of) understand your position, but I hope you can understand mine.
-
+1
-
@Guardian
Because there were "ringers" at nationals all prospective customers ought to have another opportunity to purchase the set after nationals? I guess I am not really following your justification here. Moreover, There didn't seem to be too many people who wanted to buy Roj packs and could not because they were all sold out, and obviously, like you say, people could have bought packs at the beginning.
If "Ringers" are put in check that's fine, but don't expect people to buy more boxes when the 1 box limit is lifted.
-
I have no problem with the ringers...they did nothing wrong. For me personally, I felt better about just waiting as opposed to finding ringers to ensure I could buy an extra box or two.
The Nationals supply simply did not meet demand, and it's frustrating that people are opposed to allowing others to buy more packs on the basis that the perceived values will be decreased. The market for full sets might be "flooded" but that's because hardly anyone is dropping $400+ for a set right now. If they are going to spend that money, they would rather spend less $ to get 3 sealed boxes and end up with 288 new cards (plus the extra cards) as opposed to 129.
Based on the fact that Chris Bany sold several boxes worth of regular RoJ, I can say with 100% confidence that there would have been plenty more people willing to buy AB RoJ if there had been a larger supply.
*Edit -- In the interest of full disclosure, I sold some RoJ AB packs that I had leftover from Nationals (prize packs and the 5 I bought on Saturday). I sold them at a mark-up, but I made sure the person who was buying them was aware of the potential re-release printing. The reason I sold them was because I prefer to buy packs in full boxes to assure myself of getting an UR. While the packs I had could theoretically have had multiple URs (since they came from different boxes), obviously the odds were pretty small (and unfortunately the person who bought them from me did not pull an UR).
-
I just realized that if CoW AB gets re released and so does RoJ AB, we can have an AB draft party!
-
I went to Nationals with the intention of buying 4 boxes but only got one due to the limit and then them being sold out!
-
The Nationals supply simply did not meet demand, and it's frustrating that people are opposed to allowing others to buy more packs on the basis that the perceived values will be decreased. The market for full sets might be "flooded" but that's because hardly anyone is dropping $400+ for a set right now. If they are going to spend that money, they would rather spend less $ to get 3 sealed boxes and end up with 288 new cards (plus the extra cards) as opposed to 129.
Sure its because the perceived value decreases, yet we are not having this conversation if the appropriate supply is perceived by Cactus Games or if there was a fall back plan implemented and announced before nationals to release more cards after. Say, selling excess packs after or re-releasing, a plan seemingly welcomed by both sides for future sets... I'm glad you did not use your insider trading to your advantage, but it's really not appropriate for information like that to be disseminated to you in the first place or realistic to expect people to handle such information fairly. In anticipation of a potential re-release people might not buy as many packs, but perhaps this is offset by reducing the price from $5 to $4.
The market for full sets might be "flooded" but that's because hardly anyone is dropping $400+ for a set right now. If they are going to spend that money, they would rather spend less $ to get 3 sealed boxes and end up with 288 new cards (plus the extra cards) as opposed to 129.
Yeah, and this is what made me vote for option b with the assumption that TLG knew about the re-release. In hindsight, I feel this to be an interesting assumption, but basically the people who would be buying the re-released whole boxes would not buy complete sets otherwise. Moreover, I don't know anything about the demand for re-releasing the sets, but am skeptical of whether this would be profitable because of the low demand for alternate boarder cards on the boards from people who did not collect them at nationals... and even less profitable if you release the cards the next Christmas.
-
If at all possible I will be trying to get a box or 2 of CoW AB cards when the order window is open.