Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption® Official Tournaments => Topic started by: TheMarti on March 29, 2010, 04:15:23 PM
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So, this is from another thread...
Why is Type 2 at the same time as booster? Why isn't it against Type 1 like in the past? I am curious to know the reasoning for these pairings???
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This isn't against anything or anyone, I just wanted to throw the information out there so it can be discussed. As a community, we're generally very good about listening to the community at large, so I figured it would be okay for me to put it out there.
Schedule previous years:
Nats 2008 and 2009:
Thurs:
T2-2p
Sealed
Fri:
T1-2p
T2-multi
Teams (at night, I believe... someone check me on that)
Sat:
Booster
T1-multi
Reasons this schedule worked:
1. Least popular event (sealed) was on first day (Thursday is traditionally the least attended).
2. If you preferred a specific type of event, (closed vs. T1 vs. T2, or open 2p vs. open multi) you'd have the ability to play both events of that specific type.
3. T1-2p is Friday. This always works. If someone suggested different I'd be scared.
4. Booster was on Saturday and paired with a less popular event (T1-multi)
Reasons this schedule didn't work:
1. I believe T2-2p on the first day was of some concern, but we still had a good turnout (OH 2008).
2. Teams was not official yet, and it went so late. But, it wasn't official, it was after-hours.
Nats 2007: (I believe we used this at Nats 2006 as well, but I can't find documentation, lol)
Thurs:
T2-multi
Sealed
Fri:
T2-2p
T1-2p
Sat:
Booster
T1-multi
Reasons this schedule worked:
1. Two of the "least popular" events were on the least attended day.
2. T1-2p is Friday. This always works. If someone suggested different I'd be scared.
3. Booster was on Saturday and paired with a less popular event (T1-multi)
Reasons this schedule didn't work
I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head. Discuss?
Thread on popularity of events: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17032.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17032.0)
Basically, long story short, the schedule this year is so different than the norm, and I believe a lot of people will echo me that it's really inconvenient for people who have jobs and can only come Friday/Saturday or whatever. I understand some of the logic behind it, but at the same time, as I said, I believe the player base in general will have a lot to say about this.
I will edit this more as I go, I just cant think of what else I was going to say right now (work fried my brain).
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I cannot express how much I LOATHE this schedule! I am probably not going to be able to be there for all three days and I have to give up BOOSTER DRAFT? Hasn't booster been on the last day traditionally? If I can't do Booster I lose 50% of my reasons for even coming, and considering the investment maybe it would be better to skip Nationals altogether this year. Not cool :-[.
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my favorite schedule was the 07. 08 was meh, the problem was is few people wanted to play T2 Multi.
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What people fail to realize is that there is NO perfect Nats schedule. There are just too many events that people want to play and too many different types of players.
The T2 lovers won't be happy unless their events are on different days, and that means that they have to share a day with either T1-2p or Booster, which makes them unhappy. So T2 players are going to be upset no matter what schedule is used.
For that matter, NO EVENT wants to be on Friday with T1-2p, which means that whatever gets put that day will cause some complaints.
If people realize that there's no way to make everyone happy, then I think the best possible schedule would be:
Thur: TEAMS & Sealed (giving a multi-player and 2-player choice as well as a closed and open choice)
Fri: T1-2p & T2-mp (giving a multi-player and 2-player choice as well as offending the smallest category)
Sat: Booster & T2-2p & T1-mp (giving a multi-player and 2-player choice as well as a closed and open choice)
This puts the 3 biggest events (T1-2p, Booster, TEAMS) on different days.
It let's T1 players do both events.
It let's T2 players do both events.
It let's multi-player specialists do that all 3 days.
It lets 2-player specialists do that all 3 days.
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With respect to Mark, Teams will not work on Thursday. Many teams will not pair up until players get to nationals and decide to play together. Then they need time to determine a strategy and construct complimentary decks. This is why Teams is best on Saturday. This caused me to switch booster draft to Thursday - players dive right in to the new cards on the first day. Anyway that was the thinking behind the schedule.
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Guess I can't argue that logic. Thanks for the explanation Rob! Now about that expansion set :P....
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i also like the logic behind that. now just to convince my significant other nats in new york is worth the hefty investment... :)
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i also like the logic behind that. now just to convince my significant other nats in new york is worth the hefty investment... :)
Quite a commute to Boston from NY. ;)
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I personally am just excited to be able to attend and play whatever is offered when ever is offered. My own wish was that I could have played sealed and t1 multi, which are paired together. At least my wife will play one and I will play the other.
And I look forward to the new Disciple box? expansion. Can't wait till it is officially announced!
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I liked this schedule:
Day 0: All the starting stuff
Day 1: Sealed and T1 Multi (boring events)
Day 2: T1-2P, T2-2P, and TA (standard events)
Day 3: Booster, TEAMS, and T2-MP (awesome events)
props to BubbleBoy. that and the 07 are the best ones. 07 is my favorite though.
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i also like the logic behind that. now just to convince my significant other nats in new york is worth the hefty investment... :)
Quite a commute to Boston from NY. ;)
my mistake, i meant boston. im in kansas city. :)
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i also like the logic behind that. now just to convince my significant other nats in new york is worth the hefty investment... :)
Quite a commute to Boston from NY. ;)
my mistake, i meant boston. im in kansas city. :)
No problem. Just stay away from those escalators. ;)
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i heard a rumor there are no escalators in boston! is this true?
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I liked this schedule:
Day 0: All the starting stuff
Day 1: Sealed and T1 Multi (boring events)
Day 2: T1-2P, T2-2P, and TA (standard events)
Day 3: Booster, TEAMS, and T2-MP (awesome events)
props to BubbleBoy. that and the 07 are the best ones. 07 is my favorite though.
Thanks. I see why it might be nice to have booster on Thursday so that players can get the new cards right away, but if you can't use them during the tournament anyway, I don't see a huge advantage there. It seems like it would be best to have booster on the last day like it's always been done. Also, mightn't you be able to use the new set with sealed deck?
Another schedule that might be good:
Thurs: All the starting stuff (1st time period), Sealed and T1 Multi (2nd time period)
Fri: T1-2P and TA-2P (1st time period), T2-2P and TEAMS (2nd time period)
Sat: Booster and T2-MP (1st time period), all the ending stuff (2nd time period)
This fills up all of three days, and presents very little conflict between events. There are multiplayer events in all but the T1-2P period, two-player events in all but the last time period, the least popular events are on the first day, T1-2P is on the main day, and Booster is on the last day. Something like this would make everyone happy, right?
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Why can't everyone just appreciate the schedule that John M and Rob A. (and anyone else that may be involved) came up with. I don't think there going to change it at this point.
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Why can't everyone just appreciate the schedule that John M and Rob A. (and anyone else that may be involved) came up with. I don't think there going to change it at this point.
By "at this point," do you mean "over four months away"?
If the schedule is set in stone, then I will say nothing more about this than that I do not like it very much at all.
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there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism.
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Why can't everyone just appreciate the schedule that John M and Rob A. (and anyone else that may be involved) came up with. I don't think there going to change it at this point.
With all due respect, why can we not voice our concerns, some of us cannot be there on Thursday, and we want to be able to compete in the events we are "good" at. If the schedule is set in stone it is what it is, I will no longer argue. But the redemption community (especially Rob) have proven themselves to be flexible and committed to creating the best schedule for all. We who are arguing are simply hoping there might be a more optimal arrangement. There is absolutely no harm in requesting schedule changes. Questioning their schedule is not equal to criticizing the people who made the schedule, we are simple voicing request's. I have the highest respect for Rob and John, I just was hoping to be able to go, that is all.
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I was not meaning to sound argumentative or whatever with my initial post. I see the reasoning behind having teams on Saturday, yes. Thank you for the explanation, and I am leaving it at that.
~Marti
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I liked this schedule:
Day 0: All the starting stuff
Day 1: Sealed and T1 Multi (boring events)
Day 2: T1-2P, T2-2P, and TA (standard events)
Day 3: Booster, TEAMS, and T2-MP (awesome events)
props to BubbleBoy. that and the 07 are the best ones. 07 is my favorite though.
Thanks. I see why it might be nice to have booster on Thursday so that players can get the new cards right away, but if you can't use them during the tournament anyway, I don't see a huge advantage there. It seems like it would be best to have booster on the last day like it's always been done. Also, mightn't you be able to use the new set with sealed deck?
Another schedule that might be good:
Thurs: All the starting stuff (1st time period), Sealed and T1 Multi (2nd time period)
Fri: T1-2P and TA-2P (1st time period), T2-2P and TEAMS (2nd time period)
Sat: Booster and T2-MP (1st time period), all the ending stuff (2nd time period)
This fills up all of three days, and presents very little conflict between events. There are multiplayer events in all but the T1-2P period, two-player events in all but the last time period, the least popular events are on the first day, T1-2P is on the main day, and Booster is on the last day. Something like this would make everyone happy, right?
T2-2P and T1-2P are the two longest events. outside of maybe Booster. there's no way that we can fit both in one day.
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With respect to Mark, Teams will not work on Thursday. Many teams will not pair up until players get to nationals and decide to play together.
That is a very good point Rob. In that case, I would agree that the current schedule is almost ideal.
The only questionable thing that I see is putting TEAMS and T1-mp at the same time, as they are both multi-player events using T1 decks. In fact, I might move T1-mp to an evening. Those games go pretty quickly, and not too many people play that event. It could probably fit on Fri evening without too much problem.
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T2-2P and T1-2P are the two longest events. outside of maybe Booster. there's no way that we can fit both in one day.
Well, that could present a bit of a problem. In that case, I think I like my original schedule better. The '07 Nats schedule may have been the best option at the time, but you have to remember that we have a category (TEAMS) to fit in now that did not exist then, which makes things more complicated.
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The only questionable thing that I see is putting TEAMS and T1-mp at the same time, as they are both multi-player events using T1 decks.
That's exactly why they should be paired together...
Personally, I'm not sure how wise it is to release the new set on the first day...it's going to give deck-checkers the extra challenge of making sure no one accidentally left a new card in one of their decks after a late night pick-up game for example.
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The only questionable thing that I see is putting TEAMS and T1-mp at the same time, as they are both multi-player events using T1 decks.
That's exactly why they should be paired together...
Personally, I'm not sure how wise it is to release the new set on the first day...it's going to give deck-checkers the extra challenge of making sure no one accidentally left a new card in one of their decks after a late night pick-up game for example.
Players add new cards to their decks anyways though, just to see if deck checkers can find um.
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Players add new cards to their decks anyways though, just to see if deck checkers can find um.
Like when AW was released and a couple of the playtesters added an AW Michael to Robs booster draft deck. :rollin:
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Hey,
I can think of two instances off the top of my head where the nationals schedule was changed because of player input, but I think in both cases it was changed for the next year not for the current year. So it is definitely worth while to have this sort of discussion.
I am surprised to see Booster moved to Thursday. Despite never playing in it, I've always thought it fit well on the last day of the tournament. For the competitive players, it gave them time to see the new cards before they had to make decisions about building a deck with them. For the casual players, Booster is a good chance to unwind and socialize in a less stressful environment after two long days of competition. It also surprises me to see it switch with Sealed - 2 Player because in previous years it has been a requirement that Saturday events all be multi-player so that festivities can wrap up earlier on Saturday and people can get out of town if they need to.
The pairings become very interesting with the Booster change. Unlike Type 1 - Multi, Type 2 - 2 Player should be able to get a respectable number of participants against Booster, but I'll be very curious to see how the Type 2 number is affected. I expect that Booster will fail to outdraw T1-2P for the first time in several years. We would finally get to see if there's a decent number of people interested in T1-MP now that it's not paired against Booster with new cards, except that it's now paired with Teams, which in many ways an improved variant of T1-MP.
Pairing T1-MP with Teams seems wrong to me. It feels kinda like pairing T2-2P and T2-MP together. Honestly, I kinda think we should drop T1-MP entirely. My only hesitation to dropping it is that I don't know how Teams will go over at nationals (that is THE big unknown in all of this) and if T1-MP has a chance at a resurgence when not paired against booster. If Teams does well and T1-MP does poorly this year I'll definitely be pushing strongly to not have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I know I will be playing T-1 Multi on Saturday now. The only thing this schedule did for me was allow to me avoid T-2 completely (as I was going to play T-2 on Thursday instead of sealed, but with Booster there now, that has changed).
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yeah i was going to take like thursday off and go site seeing, but the changed it maybe i can skip sat and go.
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I will probably play T1 MP If I am still there on Sat. I will not play Teams, I do not like that category at all.
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T1-Multi is my favorite so I would be sad if it ever got the boot. I will be playing it on saturday for sure.
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The schedule will allow me to leave Sat instead of Sun, so maybe I'll be able to find a cheaper airline ticket. :prayer:
(I don't play the categories held on Sat.)
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I agree Korunks. I really dislike Teams as an official category.
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If Teams does well and T1-MP does poorly this year I'll definitely be pushing strongly to not have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Yea, I will always be pushing not to have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Kirk
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If Teams does well and T1-MP does poorly this year I'll definitely be pushing strongly to not have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Yea, I will always be pushing not to have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Kirk
Or any year
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If Teams does well and T1-MP does poorly this year I'll definitely be pushing strongly to not have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Yea, I will always be pushing not to have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
I think he meant that the year after this will be the last year, as the world will end in 2012. ;)
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If Teams does well and T1-MP does poorly this year I'll definitely be pushing strongly to not have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Yea, I will always be pushing not to have a T1-MP event at nationals last year.
Kirk
Or any year
That would be said for those of us that like that category. :(
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Good Day All:
We have been reviewing your ideas and discussing the schedule behind the scenes. We have decided to make a couple of changes to the schedule.
Closed Deck - 2 Player is being moved back to Thursday
Booster Draft is being moved back to Saturday.
Type 1 - Multi-player is going to be held Thursday evening.
I hope most players see these as improvements. Some will not - sorry. But, the best news is that players now have the option of competing in four official events at Nationals.
John will be revising the schedule at the official web site to reflect the above. Thank you for all your help.
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Thank you for listening to our concerns and being gracious Rob!
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So...
Thurs: T2-2P & Sealed (midday), then T1-MP (afternoon-night)
Fri: T1-2P, TA-2P, & T2-MP (all day)
Sat: TEAMS & Booster (midday), then cleanup (afternoon)
This is a fabulous schedule: The least popular events are on the first day, the longest (standard) events are on the main day, and Booster is on the last day. Each day offers at least one MP category, and at least one free category, and there are both T1 and T2 categories on the first two days.
Thank you, Rob, for listening to our requests and changing the schedule to please as many people as possible. :)
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Rob, thank you so much for listening to our concerns, as always. This is what makes Redemption awesome.
~Marti
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great schedule!
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Thank you guys for your willingness to flexible. I know it is not required of you guys to listen to us, but it is so awesome that you do. Keep being awesome and making Redemption awesome. Kudos guys, Kudos.
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Thank you guys for your willingness to flexible. I know it is not required of you guys to listen to us, but it is so awesome that you do. Keep being awesome and making Redemption awesome. Kudos guys, Kudos.
It's awesome that you never miss an awesome opportinity to use the awesome word "awesome." ;)
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Since T1-Multi and Boosters are NOT going on at the same time, do you all think that MASK can be revised?
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If I end up coming, and if I decide to come on Thursday (unlikely), I will for sure be participating in MASK. I hate T-1 multiplayer altogether and would shed nary a tear if it were dropped, so playing spoiler is ftw.
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If I end up coming, and if I decide to come on Thursday (unlikely), I will for sure be participating in MASK. I hate T-1 multiplayer altogether and would shed nary a tear if it were dropped, so playing spoiler is ftw.
Since T1-MP is taking place all by itself, I'd bet there could be a lot of MASK players willing to play this time around. I would definitely sign up to ruin speed decks in T1-MP if I were to go.
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I'm planning on T2-2P, otherwise I'd rejoin MASK.