Author Topic: Why Pilate? (Read 6241 times)

JSB23 · « **on:** April 24, 2011, 01:21:39 PM »

If the High Priests were able to execute people on their own as with the adulterous woman (forgot her name) and Stephen, then why did they need Pilate to have Jesus executed?

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2011, 02:50:10 PM »

A couple reasons come to mind for me. There are probably others too.

1) Prophecy had to be fulfilled. There are multiple prophecies about the Messiah suffering in the form of crucifixion.

2) The religious people of Jesus' day were all about the "letter of the law" as seen in Jesus' sermon on the mount. They knew who Jesus was and believed they would not be guilty of his murder if they had someone else carry it out.

JSB23 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2011, 03:00:19 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 02:50:10 PM

2) The religious people of Jesus' day were all about the "letter of the law" as seen in Jesus' sermon on the mount. They knew who Jesus was and believed they would not be guilty of his murder if they had someone else carry it out.

They obviously didn't know who Jesus was otherwise they wouldn't have killed him.
In the priest's minds he was guilty of blasphemy which was a just cause to execute him (as shown with Stephen).

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2011, 03:08:36 PM »

Interesting question, especially since it is clear from Scripture that the Jews have no issues at all with trying to kill Jesus for Blasphemy.

Quote from: John 10:23-33 (KJV)

And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 02:50:10 PM

1) Prophecy had to be fulfilled. There are multiple prophecies about the Messiah suffering in the form of crucifixion.

Yes, and as noted in Galatians 3:13, being crucified was a sin unto itself.

Quote

They knew who Jesus was and believed they would not be guilty of his murder if they had someone else carry it out.

Do you believe that the Priests and the Scribes actually knew Jesus was the Christ?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2011, 03:57:58 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on April 24, 2011, 01:21:39 PM

If the High Priests were able to execute people on their own as with the adulterous woman (forgot her name) and Stephen, then why did they need Pilate to have Jesus executed?

I don't have any sources but I remmeber talking about something like this in my theology class. I am pretty sure the pharisees had to abide by roman law for all death penalties and therefore could not use the OT law quite as liberally. As for the Women being stoned this was probably a back alley transaction that the Romans had know knowledge about. My guess is that they went to the Romans because if they would have killed Jesus in secret, well there would be no secret because he had to many followers. The Romans would find out and assume they were trying to undermine there authority. Another possiblity is that there punishments they felt were not a severe enough and that death by stoning would not do justice. I am sure too that they new just how much pressure Pontius was under to keep the region intact. Previously he had had some run ins with riots and stirring and the next revolution was on his head. literally.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2011, 04:15:35 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 24, 2011, 03:08:36 PM

They knew who Jesus was and believed they would not be
Quote
guilty of his murder if they had someone else carry it out.
Do you believe that the Priests and the Scribes actually knew Jesus was the Christ?

Surely some of them did. But he was not the "military leader Christ" that would free them from Roman rule which is what they wanted. They even believed that he would rise again on the third day and posted a guard to try to prevent it from happening.

Whether or not you agree with that assessment isn't really the point. They certainly knew he was a prophet from God and didn't want his blood on their hands.

JSB23 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2011, 05:13:58 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 04:15:35 PM

They even believed that he would rise again on the third day and posted a guard to try to prevent it from happening.

No, they posted the guard to prevent his followers from stealing the body then saying he rose from the dead.

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 04:15:35 PM

Whether or not you agree with that assessment isn't really the point. They certainly knew he was a prophet from God and didn't want his blood on their hands.

If God had been silent for 500 years why would they kill one of his prophets?

This all ties back into the question of "If the priests knew who Jesus was then why did they kill him? or If they didn't know then why did they need Pilate to kill him?"

The Schaef · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2011, 05:35:53 PM »

It seemed to have more to do with the following Jesus had gathered by that point. The Triumphal Entry meant a huge crowd, eagerly following Him in the capital city of the Jewish nation during a holy week. I think they needed it to be a Roman execution in order to win and hold the crowd.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2011, 05:52:08 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on April 24, 2011, 03:57:58 PM

I don't have any sources but I remmeber talking about something like this in my theology class. I am pretty sure the pharisees had to abide by roman law for all death penalties and therefore could not use the OT law quite as liberally. As for the Women being stoned this was probably a back alley transaction that the Romans had know knowledge about. My guess is that they went to the Romans because if they would have killed Jesus in secret, well there would be no secret because he had to many followers. The Romans would find out and assume they were trying to undermine there authority.

-and-

Quote from: The Schaef on April 24, 2011, 05:35:53 PM

It seemed to have more to do with the following Jesus had gathered by that point. The Triumphal Entry meant a huge crowd, eagerly following Him in the capital city of the Jewish nation during a holy week. I think they needed it to be a Roman execution in order to win and hold the crowd.

On first glance these feel to me like they could be right. I don't know if it is or not, but it seems like it could be.

Quote from: JSB23 on April 24, 2011, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 04:15:35 PM
They even believed that he would rise again on the third day and posted a guard to try to prevent it from happening.
No, they posted the guard to prevent his followers from stealing the body then saying he rose from the dead.

Quote from: Matthew 27:62-64 (KJV)

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 04:15:35 PM

Surely some of them did. But he was not the "military leader Christ" that would free them from Roman rule which is what they wanted.

I am not convinced that they knew Jesus was the Christ precisely because he did not look like what they expected the Christ to look like (i.e., a conquering triumphal king). So many times people expect God to look one way that they miss His appearance because He is not what they expected.

Quote

Whether or not you agree with that assessment isn't really the point. They certainly knew he was a prophet from God and didn't want his blood on their hands.

I am fairly certain that mainstream Judaism today does not hold that Jesus was a prophet. As for back in the day we have...

Quote from: John 7:40-52 (KJV)

Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? So there was a division among the people because of him. And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.

Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?

The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2011, 06:33:54 PM »

This is the reason I almost never post on this type of topic or in this forum.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2011, 06:48:43 PM »

I think that going to the Romans makes the slaying seem more legit. Obviously, they felt ok to do some killing on their own without Rome, but by getting Rome to execute him, they could unite the various Judean factions against Jesus - the pharisees, saduccees, and herodians.

The Schaef · « **Reply #11 on:** April 24, 2011, 07:25:20 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 24, 2011, 05:52:08 PM

I am not convinced that they knew Jesus was the Christ precisely because he did not look like what they expected the Christ to look like (i.e., a conquering triumphal king). So many times people expect God to look one way that they miss His appearance because He is not what they expected.

There are some who even surmise that Judas thought he was doing Jesus a favor by turning him in: as I understand the thinking, having Him put on trial for His claims would force His hand and He would reveal Himself to all as the new king come to free them from Roman occupation.

JSB23 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 24, 2011, 07:52:58 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on April 24, 2011, 06:48:43 PM

I think that going to the Romans makes the slaying seem more legit. Obviously, they felt ok to do some killing on their own without Rome, but by getting Rome to execute him, they could unite the various Judean factions against Jesus - the pharisees, saduccees, and herodians.

The thing is the Jews hated the Romans more than Jesus

crustpope · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2011, 08:07:14 PM »

He was put to death by the romans for Treason, not for blasphemy. that is why he had the Titulus hung above his head "Jesus, King of the Jews". The Sanhedrin wanted Jesus to die for Blasphemy, but their charges against him also include that he called himself King of the Jews. This was a crime against the emperor and tantamount to treason and rebellion. While Pilate would not give two shakes of a lambs tail regarding blasphemy, he did worry about being seen as soft on Treason, especially since Judea was a troublesome and often rebellious province anyway.

For the sanhedrin, death for treason is as good as death for blasphemy

The Schaef · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2011, 08:26:34 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on April 24, 2011, 07:52:58 PM

The thing is the Jews hated the Romans more than Jesus

They're on record saying that Jesus represented a threat to the throne, and that they "have no king but Caesar".

Apparently they hated Jesus more that day.

LadyNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2011, 08:50:55 PM »

So every year my church does a major Easter production, and this year the new production was from a script written by a family connected to our church. I wasn't in it this year as in previous years, which allowed me to go see the show for the first time ever yesterday. One thing that struck me, even though it was technically extra-Biblical, was a point where Pilate is talking to Jesus about having the power to save His life or to take it, and he suggested to Jesus that he could have his soldiers get Him out of the city during the night and save Him from the murderous religious leaders. Jesus replied, "No one takes my life. I give it freely." Even though it doesn't say in the Gospels that Pilate made this offer to Jesus, the exchange in the play just made me realize all the more that nobody took Jesus life- He laid it down for us willingly. How awesome.

Anyway, just thought I'd share that.

~Britta

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2011, 08:54:03 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 06:33:54 PM

This is the reason I almost never post on this type of topic or in this forum.

Sorry.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2011, 09:09:36 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 24, 2011, 08:54:03 PM

Quote from: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 06:33:54 PM
This is the reason I almost never post on this type of topic or in this forum.
Sorry.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2011, 10:39:17 PM »

This isn't nearly as heated as it can get. I agree that it was for legitimacy. However:

Quote from: JSB23 on April 24, 2011, 07:52:58 PM

The thing is the Jews hated the Romans more than Jesus

Zealots (Simon) sure did. Others, such as the tax collectors (Matthew) sure didn't. I think it's a huge point that Jesus was able to bring these two together.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2011, 10:45:22 PM »

Could the religious leaders actually get away with murdering Jesus under Roman law? In addition, having the Romans kill Jesus would keep their hands clean of the deed, thus looking good in the publics eyes. Many respected Jesus as a Rabbi. They kill Him, it looks bad, the Romans kill Him, and they can welcome back the misguided with welcome arms.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2011, 12:25:41 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 24, 2011, 10:45:22 PM

Could the religious leaders actually get away with murdering Jesus under Roman law?

We know the crowds tried to stone Jesus (but he escaped), and the religious leaders actually did murder Stephen and got away with it.

Quote

In addition, having the Romans kill Jesus would keep their hands clean of the deed, thus looking good in the publics eyes. Many respected Jesus as a Rabbi. They kill Him, it looks bad, the Romans kill Him, and they can welcome back the misguided with welcome arms.

So maybe the could, but they chose not to...

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2011, 12:38:43 AM »

I think the point here that makes the woman and Stephen very different from Jesus is that the former were not major political figures at the time. Perhaps the various factions had tried to kill Jesus before, but by the time he had entered Jerusalem, his political clout (because of the perception of who Messiah was) made it impossible for them to do it quietly or perhaps even successfully. The fact that the Sadducees and Pharisees were working together on the plot is quite significant, and suggests that they believed the only way to rid themselves of what they viewed as a rival religious sect was to get Rome involved.

It is also very possible they were afraid of Rome getting onto them at this point. Jesus Barabbas was the leader of a Zealot rebellion immediately prior to these events, and the Roman officials had just quelled a fairly sizable uprising. Making a show of denouncing another major political figure, even if his anti-Rome stance had to be manufactured, would be a good way to keep their cushy deal with the occupiers and assure that they would not be the next target of Rome's scrutiny.

soul seeker · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:14:13 AM »

In addition to some of the answers on political intrigue and the desire to keep power, prestige, and control of the people: the Jews (or any territory controlled by Rome) were not allowed to perform their own executions. The one exception was the violation of the inner court of the Temple by Gentiles, and even then I'm pretty sure that they couldn't execute a Roman citizen (see Paul). Stephen was the exception, not the rule. The adulterous woman was a trap for Jesus, not a desired stoning.

They needed the political accusation to stick. Pilate was beginning to see through it and would have let Jesus go if Jesus had defended himself. Instead, Jesus willingly gave up his life (Praise God!)

As for the Sanhedrin honoring the prophets after so many years or recognizing Jesus as one: they didn't care. They only cared about their own position and life of luxury. They didn't listen to John (clearly a prophet), and they didn't want to listen to Jesus either (ref. Matthew 21, Mark 11, Luke 20).

In short, they chose not to see who Jesus was and killing him was the "easiest" solution and the Romans were the "easiest" way.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #23 on:** April 25, 2011, 01:08:12 PM »

The bible makes it very clear that the people who crucified Jesus DID NOT know/believe that He was the Christ.

First, Jesus said it - "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

Second, Paul said it in 1 Cor.2:8 "the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;"

The bible says it, so I believe it. But I also confess that this fact was REALLY hard for me to grasp several years ago, because to the believer it just seems SO OBVIOUS that Jesus was who He said He was. From the fulfilled prophecies to the miracles and on and on, I ask myself how someone could not believe. But many have already made some great points. 1) The Sanhedrin, and even the disciples, were looking for a military deliverer, akin to King David or Moses or Joshua. They thought the purpose of the Messiah was to set up an earthly kingdom again and kick Rome out, and they got it very wrong in this regard. They also could not grasp God Himself becoming flesh and coming to earth, so anyone claiming to be God must be a blasphemer. 2) Once the Sanhedrin realized that Jesus was NOT interested in kicking out the Romans, coupled with the fact that Jesus made them look like the hypocritical fools that they were at every turn, and that people were following Him in droves, they hardened their hearts against Him. 3) Their hearts were so hardened that they began to attribute Jesus' miracles to the DEVIL instead of God! And this level of hardness is what prompted Jesus to say that they had commited the unforgiveable sin - unforgiveable because they felt they had no sin to repent of! Also remember that their response to Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead was to try and find a way to kill Lazarus, rather than believe! There are still people in the world today whose hearts are this hard. Jesus said in the account of the rich man and Lazarus that if someone will not believe Moses and the prophets they will not believe even if someone is to return from the dead. 4) The people. First of all, I don't believe that the majority of Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ. Jesus' entry into Jerusalem makes that clear. But at the trial those people were nowhere to be found. Those believing Jews were so terrified of the Sanhedrin, and being kicked out of the temple, that the only ones at the trial were those who hated Jesus and did not believe in Him, TRULY believing Him to be a blasphemer. And again, once the believing Jews realized that Jesus was not there to ease their service to Rome, AND Jesus later dies as a criminal, I imagine that a lot of His former supporters abandoned the cause.

Regarding "Why Pilate?", I admit that the question is interesting, but I try not to ask "Why" very much. I just know that everything that happened was exactly according to God's plan, and that it occurred precisely when and how God wanted it to "in the fullness of times".

Ironica · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2011, 03:39:05 PM »

I would say because God wanted to make it as public as possible so they can't doubt (logically that is) that Jesus did die and was rose on the third day. If he was taken to the back corners of the town and stoned, not many people who know about it (besides the fact that he just disappeared) and you could logically doubt that a mob might have thought Him dead when He wasn't.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #25 on:** April 25, 2011, 03:49:36 PM »

It also made the Gentiles equally liable for Jesus' death too. They wouldn't be able to say, "We didn't kill Jesus, the Jews did."

JSB23 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 25, 2011, 05:07:46 PM »

Another (semi-)related question.
How did Judas know where Jesus would be?
Gethsemane isn't mentioned at any other time in the gospels

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #27 on:** April 25, 2011, 05:11:55 PM »

Because Judas was a follower of Jesus. Jesus probably said, "Hey, after passover, anybody want to go down to Gethsemane? There's a nice garden there, and I'd like to think." And Judas thought, "Note to self, pick up fish on the way home. Oh, and Jesus will be in the Garden of Gethsemane tonight..."

The Schaef · « **Reply #28 on:** April 25, 2011, 08:22:20 PM »

Jesus going to the bathroom isn't mentioned in any of the gospels. I'm guessing that there would probably be one or two times He made poopie that weren't considered relevant to His ministry.

crustpope · « **Reply #29 on:** April 25, 2011, 09:54:33 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 25, 2011, 08:22:20 PM

I'm guessing that there would probably be one or two times He made poopie that weren't considered relevant to His ministry.

Thats Blasphemy...Jesus didn't poop

COUNTER_SNIPER · « **Reply #30 on:** April 26, 2011, 12:46:06 AM »

Why not Pilates? I'm sure if all of the religious leaders had gone to Pilates class instead, they would have felt much better and been nicer people

-C_S

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #31 on:** April 26, 2011, 10:39:01 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 24, 2011, 08:26:34 PM

Quote from: JSB23 on April 24, 2011, 07:52:58 PM
The thing is the Jews hated the Romans more than Jesus

They're on record saying that Jesus represented a threat to the throne, and that they "have no king but Caesar".

Apparently they hated Jesus more that day.

JSB23 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 26, 2011, 05:06:02 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 26, 2011, 10:39:01 AM

[Image removed]

That's part of my point.
Why would the religious leaders be willing to sell out their beliefs to kill Jesus if they could have done it themselves?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #33 on:** April 26, 2011, 06:06:36 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on April 26, 2011, 05:06:02 PM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 26, 2011, 10:39:01 AM
[Image removed]
That's part of my point.
Why would the religious leaders be willing to sell out their beliefs to kill Jesus if they could have done it themselves?

They were far more concerned with power than beliefs.

soul seeker · « **Reply #34 on:** April 26, 2011, 06:37:15 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on April 26, 2011, 05:06:02 PM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 26, 2011, 10:39:01 AM
[Image removed]
That's part of my point.
Why would the religious leaders be willing to sell out their beliefs to kill Jesus if they could have done it themselves?

As I stated earlier, they were not allowed to execute anyone outside of Temple trespassers. They broke the rules with Stephen. They needed the Romans to execute Jesus legally.

The Schaef · « **Reply #35 on:** April 26, 2011, 11:54:36 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on April 26, 2011, 05:06:02 PM

Why would the religious leaders be willing to sell out their beliefs to kill Jesus if they could have done it themselves?

Dude, there's been like a half dozen people presenting varying degrees of answers to this.

News:

Author Topic: Why Pilate? (Read 6241 times)

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk

Ironica

Warrior_Monk

The Schaef

The Schaef