Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Claude on January 19, 2009, 10:55:33 PM

Title: Retardation and morality
Post by: Claude on January 19, 2009, 10:55:33 PM
Hey,

     I just read Sound and Fury and I actually hated it but whatever. Anyway, I am suppose to write a paper and I decided to write a paper on how Benjy (this "idiot" or retarded person) is not amoral. Where he does not just present an amoral report of sensations and reactions... but reading in the internet, almost everything points out that retarded people dont have morals. What do you think?
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on January 19, 2009, 11:31:21 PM
LOL, I hated that book too. You gotta wonder how much of the "symbolism" in "classics" was actually just thought up by the teachers.

Uhh... thats a very interesting question though. Not quite sure how to answer.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: The Schaef on January 20, 2009, 09:24:01 AM
For what reason would a retarded person not have morals?  An adult may have the intellect of an 8-year-old, but 8-year-olds know right and wrong, they just don't understand complex issues.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: JSB23 on January 20, 2009, 12:00:23 PM
For what reason would a retarded person not have morals?  An adult may have the intellect of an 8-year-old, but 8-year-olds know right and wrong, they just don't understand complex issues.
+1
I can say from first hand experience those so called "sources" are 100% wrong
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 20, 2009, 03:07:03 PM
Hey,

     I just read Sound and Fury and I actually hated it but whatever. Anyway, I am suppose to write a paper and I decided to write a paper on how Benjy (this "idiot" or retarded person) is not amoral. Where he does not just present an amoral report of sensations and reactions... but reading in the internet, almost everything points out that retarded people dont have morals. What do you think?
Not to sound ignorant but is that the story
Spoiler (hover to show)

IF so, He has morals all the way through that book. As schaef said. Just cuz an education level is at 8, right and wrong is clear.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on January 20, 2009, 03:14:23 PM
Wrong book RR. Idk what one your talking about. lol.

SatF if the one where its written from the four different siblings points of view.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 20, 2009, 03:20:34 PM
Ah, Don't think I've read that one.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: EmJayBee83 on January 20, 2009, 05:44:17 PM
RR, the book you were thinking about Flowers for Algernon.

You have the ending a little bit wrong, however.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: JDS on January 22, 2009, 02:58:02 PM
You have the ending a little bit wrong, however.

You clicked on this thread thinking it was about George Bush, however.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on January 22, 2009, 06:11:37 PM
You have the ending a little bit wrong, however.

You clicked on this thread thinking it was about George Bush, however.

HAHAHAHAH
:rollin:
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Claude on January 22, 2009, 09:12:27 PM
MOrality is defined as having distinction between right and wrong. In this book, it showed that Benjy failed to do that. When schoolgirls walked past him, he moaned and chased them. As a result, he was castrated.


Both PLATO and ARISTOTLE associated human value with the ability to reason. They differentiated mankind from other living beings by the quality of the intellect. People who lacked the capacity to reason were considered barely human and therefore socially inferior... http://www.faqs.org/childhood/Re-So/Retardation.html

Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: EmJayBee83 on January 22, 2009, 09:47:35 PM
Both PLATO and ARISTOTLE associated human value with the ability to reason. They differentiated mankind from other living beings by the quality of the intellect. People who lacked the capacity to reason were considered barely human and therefore socially inferior... http://www.faqs.org/childhood/Re-So/Retardation.html

If you are interested in seeing where arguing that human life has no inherent moral worth outside of their intellectual capabilities, you can look into the writings of Peter Singer, a "bio-ethicist" from Princeton. His believes that animals can be persons, including rights associated with that concept while "Human babies are not born self-aware or capable of grasping their lives over time. They are not persons. Hence their lives would seem to be no more worthy of protection that the life of a fetus."
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Tsavong Lah on January 22, 2009, 09:56:16 PM
Quote
In this book, it showed that Benjy failed to do that. When schoolgirls walked past him, he moaned and chased them. As a result, he was castrated.

Ahh, Faulkner...
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: The Schaef on January 22, 2009, 10:05:37 PM
MOrality is defined as having distinction between right and wrong. In this book, it showed that Benjy failed to do that. When schoolgirls walked past him, he moaned and chased them. As a result, he was castrated.

Was that because he made a wrong moral choice, or because he responded to the compulsions of his body without understanding that there is a moral choice there, and that he was supposed to exercise restraint?  I ask the question innocently, as it's been too long since I've read this to remember precise detail, but the point is that just because he acted that way does not automatically mean that it was the result of a wrong moral choice.  At least, not without additional insight into his state of mind.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Minister Polarius on January 24, 2009, 05:13:05 PM
Well the question isn't whether he's immoral but amoral.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Colin Michael on January 24, 2009, 07:18:17 PM
Well, whether humans have a desire to be good (as the Greeks thought) or a desire to be evil (original sin,) morals are not a priori. Any perception of right and wrong an autistic person would have would be from their limited perspective (just as are perceptions of right and wrong are from our limited perspective); however, on whether or not an autistic person will choose right or wrong, I actually do not subscribe to the Christian idea of "original sin" but rather the Greek idea of "evil is ignorance."
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Minister Polarius on January 25, 2009, 12:22:37 AM
Much like the naturalist, the nihilist, and the new-ager, yes?
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on January 25, 2009, 01:40:00 AM
Well, whether humans have a desire to be good (as the Greeks thought) or a desire to be evil (original sin,) morals are not a priori. Any perception of right and wrong an autistic person would have would be from their limited perspective (just as are perceptions of right and wrong are from our limited perspective); however, on whether or not an autistic person will choose right or wrong, I actually do not subscribe to the Christian idea of "original sin" but rather the Greek idea of "evil is ignorance."
Ignorance in itself is not evil BUT it does breed evil.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Claude on January 25, 2009, 09:43:05 PM
MOrality is defined as having distinction between right and wrong. In this book, it showed that Benjy failed to do that. When schoolgirls walked past him, he moaned and chased them. As a result, he was castrated.

Was that because he made a wrong moral choice, or because he responded to the compulsions of his body without understanding that there is a moral choice there, and that he was supposed to exercise restraint?  I ask the question innocently, as it's been too long since I've read this to remember precise detail, but the point is that just because he acted that way does not automatically mean that it was the result of a wrong moral choice.  At least, not without additional insight into his state of mind.
Well they didnt really specify... He just did coz of his instincts... kind of like a male dog following its instincts when it sees a female dog. In that analysis, he is therefore seen as amoral.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Colin Michael on January 25, 2009, 09:54:58 PM
Much like the naturalist, the nihilist, and the new-ager, yes?
Or the Socrate, the Platonist, and the existentialist.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: YourMathTeacher on January 25, 2009, 10:00:51 PM
Much like the naturalist, the nihilist, and the new-ager, yes?
Or the Socrate, the Platonist, and the existentialist.

Or the Romulun, Sith, and Wood Elves.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Colin Michael on January 25, 2009, 10:04:18 PM
Much like the naturalist, the nihilist, and the new-ager, yes?
Or the Socrate, the Platonist, and the existentialist.

Or the Romulun, Sith, and Wood Elves.
Or Bono (obviously.)
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: YourMathTeacher on January 25, 2009, 10:05:32 PM
Or Bono (obviously.)

 :doh:  I can't believe I missed him.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on January 26, 2009, 12:55:37 AM
Or Bono (obviously.)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphjam.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F03%2Ffunny-graphs-bono-sunglasses-charity-music.gif&hash=eec47bbcf0ef80d9c57fac70647796106fbeab92)
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Minister Polarius on January 26, 2009, 03:25:29 AM
Best graph ever.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: The Schaef on January 26, 2009, 06:57:39 AM
Well the question isn't whether he's immoral but amoral.

Yes, thank you, Daniel.  Do you not think that's why I offered the question of whether is actions were an immoral action or an amoral action?  Or why I posed the question at the very beginning of the thread about the distinction between understanding complex adult issues and having zero sense of morality?
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Minister Polarius on January 26, 2009, 03:09:05 PM
No need to be grouchy. No offense or pointedness was intended in my post.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: The Schaef on January 26, 2009, 05:28:52 PM
It's not about taking offense.  The correction is not warranted because I have spent the entire thread talking about the distinction between immorality and amorality as it applies to this character.  I know what the question is without your having to tell me.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Minister Polarius on January 26, 2009, 05:37:31 PM
Ah, back to deleting things that poke fun at you but don't break any rules, are we?
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: The Schaef on January 26, 2009, 06:01:01 PM
Ah, back to deleting things that poke fun at you but don't break any rules, are we?

I've been removing items, posts and thread that poke fun at numerous people, by numerous posters, for numerous reasons.  But why bother paying attention when you can just make everything into a personal vendetta.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: Claude on January 26, 2009, 10:30:03 PM
Well the question isn't whether he's immoral but amoral.

Yes, thank you, Daniel.  Do you not think that's why I offered the question of whether is actions were an immoral action or an amoral action?  Or why I posed the question at the very beginning of the thread about the distinction between understanding complex adult issues and having zero sense of morality?
Well, if you're looking it in a way where he chose to chase the girls because he thought of the malice and pleasure then that is immoral, but if you look it in a way where he did it because of natural instincts, and not because he processed the consequences in his brain, then that would be amoral. I think Faulkner was gearing towards the latter.
Title: Re: Retardation and morality
Post by: The Schaef on January 26, 2009, 10:40:41 PM
If Faulkner's intention was to show the "punishment" as injustice spawned from fear and blind adherence to social mores, then I feel confident it would be the latter.

However, I do not take from that, or from the specific example discussed in the story, that retarded people as a whole have zero sense of morality.  My son is one, and he's already clever enough to know when he's getting into something he ought not.
SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal