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Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Professoralstad on December 06, 2010, 04:20:26 PM

Title: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Professoralstad on December 06, 2010, 04:20:26 PM
Hey Everyone,

This month in ROOT, there are only ten participants. While this means not too much upkeep, I am wondering  why there is an apparent lack of interest among the majority of players on the board in participating. So I am asking here, for those who aren't in ROOT, what is your biggest reason for not being a part of it? And also, what changes could be implemented to the current system to possibly convince you to join?

Please respond with any number of the following for the first question:

I don't participate in ROOT because:

A. Security issues with Hamachi/RTS
B. Compatibility issues with Hamachi/RTS (e.g. you only use a Mac, etc.)
C. I am not sure how to download/install RTS/Hamachi
D. I don't enjoy playing online
E. I don't like the current ROOT format
F. The prizes are not enough to make it worth my time
G. I don't have time to play online
H. Other (please describe)

I want to find out how ROOT can be improved to make more people want to join. I am posting this here hoping I can get a lot of responses. If you have any questions, please let me know. Thanks!
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 06, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
H.

After being a part of running the tournament for almost 2 years straight, I just needed a break for a while.  I really enjoyed participating in ROOT for almost that entire time, and expect that I'll return after another month or two off.

P.S.  I applaud your effort here to reach out to more players, and commend the job you have done since coming on board the leadership team of ROOT.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Maynid on December 06, 2010, 04:43:50 PM
C....sort of...I d/l the program, but I'm unclear how to arrange matches with others...are there specific periods of time when the tournaments run, or do we just PM our opponent and arrange a mutual online time?
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Professoralstad on December 06, 2010, 05:00:06 PM
If your RTS and Hamachi are working, then joining the tournament is easy. All you have to do is post in the Redemption Online Official Tournament forum (located in the Official Tournaments forum) that you want to join. Then, read the rules in that forum, and you can play. A brief summary of how it works:

Each month is a new, four-week tournament. During week 1, you are randomly paired with an opponent for an official "swiss" game (swiss referring to the swiss style of tournament setup--which is the same as normal Redemption tournaments). In following weeks, you are paired with the person closest to you in the rankings, assuming you haven't played each other during the month. You may also, once a week, issue a challenge to any other player that A) you haven't played in a Swiss game that month B) has not been challenged by another player that week and C) that you haven't challenged in a previous week. The swiss games and challenges that you issue each count for three tournament points. You may also earn tournament points by playing bonus games. Bonus games are games you can play whenever you want during the week with any other player--even ones you have played before in the tournament. You get 2 tournament points for each bonus game that you win, and 1 point for each game you lose, with a maximum of two possible bonus points per week. Thus each week you can earn up to 8 tournament points: 3 each from the swiss and challenge games, and 2 bonus points.

When you have swiss or challenge games in a week, you usually PM your opponent to set up a time.

At the end of the four weeks, the winner is the person with the most tournament points (with tiebreakers explained in the rules).

You can join this month's tournament if you'd like, but week 2 just started so you would get a bye for your swiss game. You could still play bonus and challenge games if you would like though. PM me if you need any more info. Hopefully you can join!
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: STAMP on December 06, 2010, 05:02:39 PM
H. I can only play games on Saturday mornings.  Of course, between fishing and fantasy sports I haven't signed on to Hamachi to play in a long time.  Also, even though I've played online and enjoyed the games, I'd much rather play in person.  (Just waiting for someone to host tournaments in the NW.  ;) )
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 06, 2010, 07:59:23 PM
F.) Well, sorta.  Prizes never motivated me that much, but all that work for the possibility of one pack?  Geez...
G.) I've got three difficult classes this semester.  This may change in the future
H.) Last time I was going to try ROOT, things didn't go so well.  I'm unsure of trying it again.
I.) I don't think I'm good enough to play ROOT just yet.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Alex_Olijar on December 06, 2010, 08:05:51 PM
As to I, I think that one of the goals of ROOT is to make everyone a better player so I do not think you should let that stop you!
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: christiangamer25 on December 06, 2010, 08:36:24 PM
pfft please im in root this month and im the worst player here  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Alex_Olijar on December 06, 2010, 09:53:34 PM
-1 to you, because that is not true.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 07, 2010, 09:15:08 AM
G/H: Yay college.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 07, 2010, 09:28:09 AM
H. Don't like RTS
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Red on December 07, 2010, 09:41:27 AM
F(I may be playing but prizes are a good idea.)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The M on December 07, 2010, 12:31:21 PM
A. My dad is a computer programmer and says this stuff has no security whatsoever.
Otherwise I would be doing it day and night.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: soul seeker on December 07, 2010, 01:03:39 PM
G)   Trust me, I was super tempted this month with the low amount of players.  However, there was no way I could swing the time without ghosting or my education suffering.

I greatly miss RTS/ROOT.  It made me a much better player, and it helped me stay on top of the current rules, combos, and decks.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 07, 2010, 01:23:39 PM
I.) I don't think I'm good enough to play ROOT just yet.
Lemme 'splain.

There's dozens of deck combinations one can make in Redemption, and I've only played a few.  What use is it playing ROOT when I only know how to play one or two types of decks?  I feel I'd just be a burden for those who want to win.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 07, 2010, 01:50:05 PM
Quote
There's dozens of deck combinations one can make in Redemption, and I've only played a few.  What use is it playing ROOT when I only know how to play one or two types of decks?

What better way to learn? Last month was my first month playing RooT since Disciples came out and the reason I joined was not to win every game, but to learn different deck types and find out what type of deck suited me best. I found a combination I liked and this month I am aiming to place in top 3. What RooT helped with is making sure I had guaranteed opponents instead of just hoping someone was able to play when I wanted to test a deck.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The M on December 07, 2010, 02:01:16 PM
Can someone give me a reason to convince my dad to let me do hamachi?
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 07, 2010, 02:03:58 PM
All the cool kids are doing it.
Only noobs get viruses, I have Norton!
The internet told me to.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 07, 2010, 02:25:53 PM
Can someone give me a reason to convince my dad to let me do hamachi?

Perhaps if you did not join other networks but only had one yourself and then you would be able to just let in people you know and trust.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The M on December 07, 2010, 03:10:19 PM
4 people, 2 of which do ROOT?
That's not what I mean,
I mean it is really easy to get viruses on other people's computers on yours when you share a network.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 07, 2010, 04:08:14 PM
4 people, 2 of which do ROOT?
That's not what I mean,
I mean it is really easy to get viruses on other people's computers on yours when you share a network.

Not really. Especially if you properly protect your computer.

Only noobs get viruses, I have Norton!

Norton and McAfee suck and actually can give you viruses. I use Avira alongside Spybot and never get viruses unless I purposely download and execute one. Which I do on occasion to keep my l33t tech skills at peak. If you REALLY want to feel safe, Avira + Spybot + Sygate Personal Firewall (only for XP)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 07, 2010, 04:10:04 PM
lrn2meme
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 07, 2010, 04:11:43 PM
If you have a good antivirus and firewall, you've got nothing to fear.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The M on December 07, 2010, 04:16:12 PM
4 people, 2 of which do ROOT?
That's not what I mean,
I mean it is really easy to get viruses on other people's computers on yours when you share a network.

Not really. Especially if you properly protect your computer.

Only noobs get viruses, I have Norton!


Norton and McAfee suck and actually can give you viruses. I use Avira alongside Spybot and never get viruses unless I purposely download and execute one. Which I do on occasion to keep my l33t tech skills at peak. If you REALLY want to feel safe, Avira + Spybot + Sygate Personal Firewall (only for XP)


I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Warrior on December 07, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
4 people, 2 of which do ROOT?
That's not what I mean,
I mean it is really easy to get viruses on other people's computers on yours when you share a network.

Not really. Especially if you properly protect your computer.

Only noobs get viruses, I have Norton!


Norton and McAfee suck and actually can give you viruses. I use Avira alongside Spybot and never get viruses unless I purposely download and execute one. Which I do on occasion to keep my l33t tech skills at peak. If you REALLY want to feel safe, Avira + Spybot + Sygate Personal Firewall (only for XP)


I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
Paranoid is Paranoid
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 07, 2010, 05:45:36 PM
Norton isn't that great, but it should be ample protection.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 07, 2010, 06:16:50 PM
Paranoid is Paranoid

True 'dat. If someone is paranoid enough, no matter what you say, they will not be convinced. That would be most grandparents, and most parent's that don't know much about computers. (ESPECIALLY mine)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 07, 2010, 06:17:37 PM
My solution would be get your own computer and your own internet connection. It's what I did.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: browarod on December 07, 2010, 06:21:21 PM
I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
...........and your computer still functions at all properly? Virus/Malware software isn't designed to work with others of the same kind (virus with virus and malware with malware). I'm surprised your antivirus programs haven't exploded at each other yet.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LadyNobody on December 07, 2010, 08:57:25 PM
C and G.

I would love to play in the online tournament like I used to, but every time I have tried following the directions, something ends up not working with RTS, and I don't know where to start with Hamachi. Plus I don't have a lot of time to spend figuring it all out and playing.

~Britta
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Master KChief on December 07, 2010, 09:24:03 PM
H. too many try hards.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Red on December 07, 2010, 09:53:03 PM
try hards?
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Gabe on December 08, 2010, 12:53:33 AM
G
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 08, 2010, 03:35:29 AM
I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
Your dad is a computer programmer and he's got you running all that? What does he program, Dora the Explorer video games?
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 08, 2010, 09:17:21 AM
I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
Your dad is a computer programmer and he's got you running all that? What does he program, Dora the Explorer video games?

Ditto.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 08, 2010, 10:19:22 AM
Some mixture of B*, D, and E**.

*This will be resolved in about a month.
**I actually don't know the current format, but I'm afraid of change ;_;
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Daniel TS RED on December 08, 2010, 10:43:43 AM
I think the biggest thing is there's a lack of interest in playing redemption online. It starts out with limited time to play, which is understandable, but then when you're ready to play, no-one is online to play against. So that carries over to ROOT. So, in my opinion, it's not nessarily a ROOT problem, it's a problem with people not really wanting to play online.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: browarod on December 08, 2010, 12:21:56 PM
I think the biggest thing is there's a lack of interest in playing redemption online. It starts out with limited time to play, which is understandable, but then when you're ready to play, no-one is online to play against. So that carries over to ROOT. So, in my opinion, it's not nessarily a ROOT problem, it's a problem with people not really wanting to play online.
My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: STAMP on December 08, 2010, 12:28:59 PM
I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
Your dad is a computer programmer and he's got you running all that? What does he program, Dora the Explorer video games?

Maybe he programs viruses and needs to test them.  :P
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 08, 2010, 12:29:33 PM
I'm betting that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. A few months ago, there were tons of people on pretty much all the time. These days, there's hardly ever anyone on. I bet it started with a few people getting more busy for finals, but then it just snowballed with people saying "oh, it's harder to find games so I'll just leave" starting a domino effect.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 08, 2010, 12:39:04 PM
Wait till summer and see what happens.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The M on December 08, 2010, 04:48:51 PM
I've got Norton, McAfee, Malware, Spyware, Firewall, Wareware, and Warewalls!
But my dad doesn't think it is good enough!
Your dad is a computer programmer and he's got you running all that? What does he program, Dora the Explorer video games?
Supercomputers.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Daniel TS RED on December 08, 2010, 05:25:31 PM
I'm betting that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. A few months ago, there were tons of people on pretty much all the time. These days, there's hardly ever anyone on. I bet it started with a few people getting more busy for finals, but then it just snowballed with people saying "oh, it's harder to find games so I'll just leave" starting a domino effect.

That's probably true. Hopefully with redemption live or whatever it's called that will increase interest in playing online because right now, it's about the lowest I've seen it in my time on the boards.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 08, 2010, 08:43:00 PM
I'm betting that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. A few months ago, there were tons of people on pretty much all the time. These days, there's hardly ever anyone on. I bet it started with a few people getting more busy for finals, but then it just snowballed with people saying "oh, it's harder to find games so I'll just leave" starting a domino effect.

That's probably true. Hopefully with redemption live or whatever it's called that will increase interest in playing online because right now, it's about the lowest I've seen it in my time on the boards.
It's just around the corner!  This may be another reason people don't play.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 08, 2010, 10:19:08 PM
I think the 16-person limit on Hamachi is a significant draw-back to people feeling like there are people online.  If everyone could join a single group, then there would almost always be multiple people online looking for a game.  But with the current limit of 16 people in a group, the only way to see everyone is to join a ton of groups.  But groups have to be consistently updated, or they become useless because they are full of people who don't play anymore, or full of old accounts that people have switched to new ones.

I've looked in the past for a replacement for Hamachi to fix this problem, but so far I haven't been able to find anything that is as simple to set up and use, and free, and has unlimited group size.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: christiangamer25 on December 08, 2010, 10:44:54 PM
VENTRILLO SKYPE TEAMSPEAK
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 08, 2010, 10:50:51 PM
Those don't allow you to connect over a VPN, which is what RTS needs.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Daniel TS RED on December 09, 2010, 10:17:19 AM
I think the 16-person limit on Hamachi is a significant draw-back to people feeling like there are people online.  If everyone could join a single group, then there would almost always be multiple people online looking for a game.  But with the current limit of 16 people in a group, the only way to see everyone is to join a ton of groups.  But groups have to be consistently updated, or they become useless because they are full of people who don't play anymore, or full of old accounts that people have switched to new ones.

I've looked in the past for a replacement for Hamachi to fix this problem, but so far I haven't been able to find anything that is as simple to set up and use, and free, and has unlimited group size.

As far as I can tell, there's only about 2-3 on hamachi at any given time. Not counting later at night. And those people are usually idle'n.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: christiangamer25 on December 09, 2010, 10:36:19 AM
and whats wrong with whatismyip.com using actual tcp/ip connections like the net was meant for
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Daniel TS RED on December 09, 2010, 10:39:07 AM
That was the old school way of playing RTS games. Only a few people could host though because of firewall/PC issues. Hamachi/RTS is probably the best way. It's not a program thing imo, it's a lack of interest and limited online player base.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 09, 2010, 11:46:51 AM
It's not a program thing imo,
Yes it is.  Name me another system of playing games online that requires an extensive setup like RTS and is from this millennium.

My roommate has no trouble finding opponents for MGO.  (Except for the occasional issue with the campus network, but that's another issue entirely.)  If I want to play Left4Dead, bam, three random people from the internet.

We need problem solving, not excuses.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Daniel TS RED on December 09, 2010, 12:03:20 PM
Do you play redemption games online? It's not a program thing. That's not an excuse, it's the truth. If someone truely wants to play online, they'll ask for help with RTS/Hamachi setup. That happens very rarely. There isn't a lot of new online players and a lot of the older online players play less or have stopped. Those other games you're talking about have a much bigger player base, which is exactly what I said already.

More people played redemption online when it was more difficult to connect and play, so since it's easier, it's now a program problem? Doesn't make any sense.

The current ROOT rankings is pretty much the people that play redemption online. When in ROOT though, they are basically focused on getting in all ROOT games. You might add 2-3 players to that. So maybe 15 people that play online? It's tough to find games because there's not a whole lot of players to start with.

As I've said before, it's not a ROOT problem, there's just not many people that play online.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 09, 2010, 02:41:44 PM
+1 w/ Daniel. RTS and Hamachi are not that complicated if someone walks you through them when you're first starting. There's even an extensive self-help/troubleshooting guide that Lambo put together. It's a shrinking pool of people who are willing to play online. Things might get better when RedemptionLive comes out as it could shorten games by adding simple functions that require a couple steps w/ RTS, and if games are shortened, more people might be willing to play online. That remains to be seen however.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 09, 2010, 03:24:58 PM
I agree that it's not only the program.  However, RTS is needlessly complicated, i.e., more complicated than it should be.  This may be contributing to the problem.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 09, 2010, 03:57:55 PM
It's that way because it hasn't been updated (other than the news sets, and those weren't even done by the original programmer) in a very long time. Back when it was being updated, it was great. And it still beats playing via chat by a huge margin.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 09, 2010, 04:07:08 PM
It's that way because it hasn't been updated (other than the news sets, and those weren't even done by the original programmer) in a very long time. Back when it was being updated, it was great. And it still beats playing via chat by a huge margin.
I completely agree.  However, this is no excuse for having a shoddy product.  What would happen if someone wanted to start playing Redemption, but had to:
-Buy three products from one store (RTS, and two updates)
-Buy another product, but upon purchase, had to sign up for the loyalty program at the store (Hamachi)
-Got home, had to piece together all four kits (Four separate installs, albeit relatively quick)
-Put everything together and, barring any major failures, finds a small group of those willing to play?

Not only that, those who live in motor homes and apartments can't use it at all (Mac/Linux)

No wonder there aren't any new users.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 10, 2010, 01:16:21 AM
It's free.

GamerX created RTS on his own time and dime because he loves the game. Your rude remarks are indefensible.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 10, 2010, 01:29:24 AM
Quote
However, this is no excuse for having a shoddy product.  What would happen if someone wanted to start playing Redemption, but had to:
-Buy three products from one store (RTS, and two updates)
When it first came out, RTS was a single and simple install. It was free, is still free and always will be free.
Quote
-Buy another product, but upon purchase, had to sign up for the loyalty program at the store (Hamachi)
Hamachi wasn't being used back then. I don't even think it was being used when Gamer X stopped updating RTS.
Quote
-Got home, had to piece together all four kits (Four separate installs, albeit relatively quick)
Not sure what's so bad about a couple of quick installs...people build crazy juiced-up computers just for gaming these days...
Quote
-Put everything together and, barring any major failures, finds a small group of those willing to play?
And there we have the only actual problem.

Quote
Not only that, those who live in motor homes and apartments can't use it at all (Mac/Linux)
Except with a little work, there's actually ways around that too, granted they are more complicated, but that was the case for numerous programs (non-cross compatibility) back when RTS came out. It's not unreasonable to assume Gamer X could have eventually created a Mac version (if he had the necessary knowledge of Macs, which I don't know).

Really sorry you feel RTS is so shoddy, but perhaps if you tried playing a game over chat sometime, you would appreciate it much more.  :-\
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 12:13:41 PM
Well, when it first came out, you didn't have any trouble finding people to play with.  RTS is a shoddy product compared to what's currently on the market today.  Compared to chat, it's amazing.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 10, 2010, 01:11:53 PM
It's not a product, it's a service. Try getting to play Halo Reach on Xbox live for free.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Alex_Olijar on December 10, 2010, 01:12:05 PM
Well, when it first came out, you didn't have any trouble finding people to play with.  RTS is a shoddy product compared to what's currently on the market today.  Compared to chat, it's amazing.

There isn't anything else on the market, so it sounds like your argument is the only shoddy thing around.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 01:47:11 PM
Well, when it first came out, you didn't have any trouble finding people to play with.  RTS is a shoddy product compared to what's currently on the market today.  Compared to chat, it's amazing.

There isn't anything else on the market, so it sounds like your argument is the only shoddy thing around.
*ahem*:
MtGO
Magic Workstation
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 10, 2010, 02:13:25 PM
Can you play Redemption on those? (That's not sarcasm, I have no idea because you kind of make it sound like a person can...)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 02:16:52 PM
Actually, that's a pretty valid question.  Yes, you can play Redemption on Magic Workstation (there's no association with MtG).  Someone would need to import the cards.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Schaef on December 10, 2010, 02:17:24 PM
You can't play Redemption through either of those services.

For all its flaws, RTS is a free service and the only one through which Redemption can be played with an online interface other than just plain text chat.  These "additional installs" so to speak are add-ons created by users to retain usefulness in a program that has not been serviced in some four or five years.

Additionally, there is a new product coming down the pike which I believe is supposed to have updated functionality and work "in the cloud", as well as a website in development that will allow players to manage card collections, build decks, and form online playgroup clusters.

As someone who is in the process of developing a wiki, I would think you would want people to appreciate the fact that you took the initiative in getting a functional wiki online, and for them to assist you if they are able, and not rip on you for the fact that your wiki still has a lot of holes in it, is not as sleek or stylish as the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki on the same site, or that it wasn't done five years ago by someone else.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Master KChief on December 10, 2010, 02:20:23 PM
It's not a product, it's a service. Try getting to play Halo Reach on Xbox live for free.

...which was possible the first weekend halo reach dropped.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 10, 2010, 02:23:12 PM
The oldest marketing ploy in the book...give 'em a taste for free to get 'em hooked...  :P
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Schaef on December 10, 2010, 02:24:05 PM
As a promotional tool to entice people to purchase a paid service, and not as something inherent in the Reach product, correct?
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 02:41:55 PM
As someone who is in the process of developing a wiki, I would think you would want people to appreciate the fact that you took the initiative in getting a functional wiki online, and for them to assist you if they are able, and not rip on you for the fact that your wiki still has a lot of holes in it, is not as sleek or stylish as the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki on the same site, or that it wasn't done five years ago by someone else.
The wiki is dead.  There's no reason to keep it alive, I plan on deleting it once Redemption Connect gets up and running.
I'd rather not people associate me with the wiki, I was just in the right place.  If anything, it was mjwolfe that did the hard work.  The whole idea was that if people saw problems, they could fix them.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Schaef on December 10, 2010, 02:50:02 PM
I'm not sure why you would do that when Connect in its current form is just a card repository and doesn't have gameplay information, but that's your prerogative.

However, that signals to me that another aspect to add to that site is wiki-like information.  At this rate it stands a good chance of turning into everything the Nexus could have been but wasn't, if enough people get on board to assist.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Alex_Olijar on December 10, 2010, 04:07:13 PM
Actually, that's a pretty valid question.  Yes, you can play Redemption on Magic Workstation (there's no association with MtG).  Someone would need to import the cards.

Then if RTS is so bad, import that cards. It's easy to critisize, but I until you do something about it, your criticism is worthless. Calling RTS shoddy is a waste. Obviously we all know it could be better. Until you provide something better, however, I will use RTS and be happy.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 04:12:41 PM
Actually, that's a pretty valid question.  Yes, you can play Redemption on Magic Workstation (there's no association with MtG).  Someone would need to import the cards.

Then if RTS is so bad, import that cards. It's easy to critisize, but I until you do something about it, your criticism is worthless. Calling RTS shoddy is a waste. Obviously we all know it could be better. Until you provide something better, however, I will use RTS and be happy.
Personally, I'd much rather see a comprehensive system, with many more features.  One of my long term goals here at Roberts is to design something like that.  However, it's my first semester.

On another note, I asked about the source code for RTS, but Gamer X hasn't been on in three years.

I'm not sure why you would do that when Connect in its current form is just a card repository and doesn't have gameplay information, but that's your prerogative.

However, that signals to me that another aspect to add to that site is wiki-like information.  At this rate it stands a good chance of turning into everything the Nexus could have been but wasn't, if enough people get on board to assist.
Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.  Unless said efforts are arguing and telling other people how wrong they are for having an opinion.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Alex_Olijar on December 10, 2010, 04:16:22 PM
Well, then personally, you can't complain. You are excusing why it can not be done rather than taking the iniative to fix something you do not like. Long term goals are great, but you claim to have a short term stop gap and yet are still letting it bleed.

I'm glad you like this community so much, by the way. I'll remember that I no longer can disagree with you in the future.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 10, 2010, 04:23:50 PM

On another note, I asked about the source code for RTS, but Gamer X hasn't been on in three years.


I talked to Gamer-X a couple of weeks ago, and he has no interest in sharing code. He has been working on it slowly whenever he has free time. But you can always be patient and look forward to Redemption Live! (If it ever is released)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Schaef on December 10, 2010, 04:32:19 PM
Personally, I'd much rather see a comprehensive system, with many more features.

Hence, why I wouldn't be so quick to put Magic Workstation up against RTS.

Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.  Unless said efforts are arguing and telling other people how wrong they are for having an opinion.

Well, you seem content to lob thinly-veiled criticisms at me for being all talk and no action, even though I assist Rob in his development efforts, have tried maintaining my own site for nearly four years, provided hosting for the RTS system so all the files could be in one convenient location, lent you some help in your efforts with the wiki, and am currently lending assistance to Sean with his design and development of Connect.  And that's fine.  What seems logical to me, however, would be that encouraging and supporting efforts within the community will at least improve their chances to succeed, while declaring them futile and walking away increases the chance that they will in fact fail, by depriving them of at least one more person.

If you'd care to highlight a post where I said you were wrong just for having an opinion, I would be interested to see that.  Finding the right material, however, will require you to differentiate telling someone they are wrong "just for having an opinion" from other ideas, such as disagreeing with the premise of their opinion, suggesting that people might be overstating their case, and taking issue with people whose attacks become both personal and unfair in their nature.  So be sure to filter that out of your response.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: STAMP on December 10, 2010, 04:32:37 PM
Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.

So start a foundation.


;)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Guardian on December 10, 2010, 04:40:17 PM
Quote
Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.  Unless said efforts are arguing and telling other people how wrong they are for having an opinion.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when that opinion happens to be that something that most people greatly appreciate, you consider "shoddy," then you should expect some rebuttals. That's kind of the nature of taking a strong and unpopular stance.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 10, 2010, 04:44:28 PM
Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.
That is a generalization, and is inaccurate.  A more accurate statement would be that for community-driven efforts to succeed, there has to be either mass acceptance or a single person who is willing to consistently put in time on something until it is finished.  I will limit my examples to ones that I have personally been involved in (leaving out things like the chess feature, and the thumbs up feature that the community lobbied successfully for):

I remember when someone first introduced Hamachi to us on the forum, and after checking it out it seemed like a great idea.  I have helped maintain some of the most used Hamachi groups (primarily for ROOT).

Speaking of ROOT, I was involved in helping get the approval to make that an official RNRS category, filling the void that had been left by Jacob's Ladder (another community driven idea that was successful for a while) shutting down.

Speaking of official categories, I was involved in helping TEAMS become an official RNRS category as well.  I organized and ran it as a side tournament at Nats '08, and kept working on it from there.

I also noticed a need on the forum for a better organized way to find and record trading references.  So Soul Seeker and I both started ways to do that within the Market sub board.

There was also desire on the forum for there to be a Redemption Hall of Fame.  So I put together a team and we started that as a way to show how the best of the Redemption community gives glory to God, and also as a way to remember those from long ago, who many people today would never know about.

And for those of you who see "Elder" under my name and think..."well sure he could do those things, he's a PTB", I did all of those things BEFORE becoming and "Elder".  And for that matter, the whole "Elder" system was also a recent community-driven change.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 04:56:28 PM
Well, then personally, you can't complain. You are excusing why it can not be done rather than taking the iniative to fix something you do not like. Long term goals are great, but you claim to have a short term stop gap and yet are still letting it bleed.

I'm glad you like this community so much, by the way. I'll remember that I no longer can disagree with you in the future.
You mind telling me where I claimed to have a short-term stopgap?  The wiki's nothing more than a script and an (unanswered) prayer.

Debate and discussion are great things, as they allow different ideas to be compared honestly.  I don't mind someone who has a different opinion than mine.  However, when I've got words put in my mouth, or told I flat out fail, that creates a different impression.

As for the rest:
Schaef, no response.
STAMP, thanks for bringing a bit of humor here.  I appreciate it.  (Not sarcastic, I really do)
Guardian, I understand that I've got unpopular opinions.  Mention it next time we meet (nats, anyone?), and I've got some stories to tell.
Underwood, those are some inspiring stories.  Problem is, that's one person working really hard to do something, and not "Community-driven" like a wiki would be.  (Or, at least, how I envisioned it to be).  Also, I'm not nearly as good at working really hard on something like most are...  I doubt I personally would ever accomplish something like that.

Finally, this:
Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.  Unless said efforts are arguing and telling other people how wrong they are for having an opinion.
has nothing to do with this thread.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 10, 2010, 04:59:15 PM
Finally, this:
Community-driven efforts will fail within this community.  Unless said efforts are arguing and telling other people how wrong they are for having an opinion.
has nothing to do with this thread.

I disagree.   ;)
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Schaef on December 10, 2010, 05:05:14 PM
Quote
Schaef, no response.

Well, if you have no response for me, I have no reason to believe your various criticisms of me through the day have been anything but the unfair attacks they appeared to be.  So if that's the end of it, I guess you can just go back to being mad at me for no reason and I can go back to giving this help that you claim I don't give.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Prof Underwood on December 10, 2010, 05:08:46 PM
Underwood, those are some inspiring stories.  Problem is, that's one person working really hard to do something, and not "Community-driven" like a wiki would be.
Actually most of the things that I talked about were group efforts.

Someone else found Hamachi and told the community here about it.  And it wouldn't be the standard except that is was widely accepted and everyone started downloading it and joining groups.

Sure I got ROOT to be an official category, but Soul Seeker was the one who came up with the Substitute Online Tournament, on which it was based.  And it wouldn't have had a chance if it also hadn't been widely accepted by the community and a bunch of people hadn't decided to play in it.

Sure I helped make TEAMS official, but it wouldn't have had a chance if it hadn't been one of the most popular events at Nats that year, and if Mike Wolfe hadn't picked up the baton to run it as a side tournament again at the next year's Nats (which I couldn't go to).

Sure Soul Seeker and I started the organized way of leaving and looking for trade references, but it wouldn't be helpful at all if all of the rest of the people in the community weren't putting their experiences with people there.

And the Hall of Fame wouldn't work if there weren't a committee of people from around the country helping to organize it, and all of the people in the community making their nominations or casting their votes.

And the "Elder" system came about due to a groundswell of the overall community begging to have something put in place that would help them to get faster rulings, etc.

All of these things really are COMMUNITY efforts.  And I for one am grateful for this community, and proud to be a part of it.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: LordZardeck on December 10, 2010, 05:39:42 PM
Without a community, nothing will succeed. One man can try all he can, but without others to back-up, support, and give criticism, nothing great can be accomplished. And criticism IS good as it helps weed out flaws. The problem our community has, is either no one has the knowledge and ability to, or they don't have the time to contribute to fixing these flaws.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Alex_Olijar on December 10, 2010, 06:09:01 PM
SomeKittens: RTS stinks compared to similar programs.
Alex: It's all there is, so without compitition, hard to say it stinks compared to other programs.
SomeKittens: There is that program for Magic.
Schaef: Bad example.
SomeKittens: Actually, you can import Redemption Cards into, someone just needs to do it.
Alex: Why don't you do it then?
SomeKittens: I'd rather go big.
Alex: So why not do that to hold it over til you can go big?
SomeKittens: When did I say I had anything to hold us over?

That how I read what you said. You presented Magic's program as a possible alternative and don't seem willing to put in the work, so thus I will not consider it, as I am perfectly happy for RTS.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Red on December 10, 2010, 06:19:09 PM
We should rename this thread "Somekittens VS  The world".
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: The Schaef on December 10, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
And actually, the Magic Workstation has only a fraction of the functionality of RTS.  It only provides basic card game functionality, drawing and shuffling and such, kind of like VASSAL does basic board game functions and you can "import" games into it.  So it's more than importing the cards, if you want it to have Redemption-specific functionality, you'd also have to design and add in settings and scripting to accommodate it.

And oh yes, the full version costs about $27.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: SomeKittens on December 10, 2010, 06:24:43 PM
Magic Workstation has nothing to do with Magic:The Gathering.  You prove my point by refusing to use it.  Why should I put the work into transferring the cards if no one will play?

On another note, why put the work into RedemptionLive?  Everyone seems content with RTS as it is.

We should rename this thread "Somekittens VS  The world".
Not funny.  Not at all.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 10, 2010, 06:31:18 PM
We should rename this thread "Somekittens VS  The world".
Was that really necessary?
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Red on December 10, 2010, 06:38:43 PM
Wow every time I open my mouth people hate on me but then when other people make slightly offensive or smart alec comments they get praised for it? Seems hypocritacal to me. Sorry just my opinion.
Title: Re: Redemption Online Official Tournament
Post by: Professoralstad on December 10, 2010, 06:53:22 PM
Thank you everyone for your responses. The first three and a half pages or so were somewhat helpful. Hopefully whatever happens, the future of ROOT can accommodate more people.
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